Unicron Vs John Mcclane, Korben Dallas, Joe Colton (G.I.Joe), and Butch(pulp fiction)

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I was waiting for you to try and use this point.

Nope, no Matrix energy up in here... at all...

Good. Glad you agree.

The fact that it had [b]just upgraded Hotrod to Rodimus, and the fact that it had been glowing all the time Galvatron was getting no-selled by Rodimus's chestplate... means no Matrix was ever involved...

Well if it gave Rodimus strength, fine. No probs there, this after all would be backed further by the "Bulletproof Rodimus effect" that we see on screen.
BUT if Unicron was as tough as you maintain: Galvatron would have smashed and crumpled against the wall, and wouldn't have smashed through it making it crumble as it broke.

#1: Look at the screen shot Garth, it IS Hydraulic.

Whos Garth? Rage misspell much?
I see no hydraulic oil.
There or anywhere in Unicron.

#2: You fob around vulnerabilities and then have the gall to accuse me of making ascertations without proof. The fact is that it is far more likely that the damage to unicron was more for plot convenience rather than fact. Consider this, As big as Unicron is, and what he does, what else would he have had to survive up until that point? meteor showers, black holes, ion storms, and all kinds of outer space stuff that would make most transformers cringe at the thought.

Galvatron firing at Unicron.

Unicron no sell to the cheek.

No sell? Or damage below the "resolution" of the scale/animation here. Do you mean to suggest that Megatron's fingertips were more effective/powerful than Galvatron's Particle Cannon? Look at Unicrons horn which Galavtron shoots, the before and after ARE different. Two parallel lines are in the place he blasted in the 3rd screencap. These indicate that the cannon was effective, just woefulyl inadequate at effecting change on a scale that would be a showstopper for Unicron.

No sell to the horns, repeatedly.

[quote]

No sell to the forhead.

Galvatron's canon mode striking internal area.

absolutely undamaged.

And that internal area was the exact same area where Rodimus later threw galvatron out of Unicron. For the armoring of an area to actually work against explosions like Moon Base 2, the whole area needs to be armored for it to work, but it is not.

EXACT same? I dont think so. They traversed areas in their conflict. Besides which given the interlocking. shifting nature of the massive transformer that Unicron was, is it inconcieveable to you that different panels had different properties? And if not, how comes some parts were so easily damaged if they all have uniform strength? Are you now saying that Arcee's blaster is more powerful that Galvatron's? (Rhetorical, since its obvious that you are now saying that.. [/B]

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
NO ONE DEBATE..!!! CEASE ALL DISCUSSION, IMMEDIATELY..!!!! LESTOV DOESN'T WANT ANYONE TO TALK UNLESS HE IS THE CENTER OF ATTENTION..!!! HEED HIS WORD..!!!!
THE FORUM MUST GRIND TO A COMPLETELY INACTIVE HALT..!!!!

Oh...so you DIDN'T say this?

Originally posted by Lestov16
Unicron wins. This is [b]not up for debate. [/B]

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I was waiting for you to try and use this point.

Nope, no Matrix energy up in here... at all...

Ahhhh blue stuff. Yes cause all blue flames are clearly matrix energy, right?

Just like Devastator crushed the Matrix here at 00:21...

YouTube video

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Good. Glad you agree.

*Sigh* The evidence is right in front of your face, and you still can't see it.... thyat or sarcasm obviously does not register well with you. The blue energy trail coming from the hole Sadako...

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well if it gave Rodimus strength, fine. No probs there, this after all would be backed further by the "Bulletproof Rodimus effect" that we see on screen.

Right.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
BUT if Unicron was as tough as you maintain: Galvatron would have smashed and crumpled against the wall, and wouldn't have smashed through it making it crumble as it broke.

Even though Matrix energy, specifically his kryptonite, has been flowing around for a while? Ok... 🙄

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Whos Garth? Rage misspell much?
I see no hydraulic oil.
There or anywhere in Unicron.

Girth, garth, whatever.

It does not matter. It is what it is. The screen shots prove it.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Size and tractor beams. Smaller collisions absorbed by his overall size, larger ones averted by the fact of his tractor beamage. Anything bigger than that, he probably ate.

More claims.

Yeah, he survives collisions with asteroids, moonbases blowing up in his gullet... but the Willis clones can punch holes in him LOL 🙄

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
No sell? Or damage below the "resolution" of the scale/animation here. Do you mean to suggest that Megatron's fingertips were more effective/powerful than Galvatron's Particle Cannon? Look at Unicrons horn which Galavtron shoots, the before and after ARE different. Two parallel lines are in the place he blasted in the 3rd screencap. These indicate that the cannon was effective, just woefulyl inadequate at effecting change on a scale that would be a showstopper for Unicron.

I am saying what I have said right from the get go, the movie is so inconsistent that the debate will ALWAYS get run in circles like this. Clarification, I asked for this right from the get go, and you and Focus harped on and on and on about movie only rules. Well, here is your movie only results, the same damn thing. The movie is not even consistent with itself, this why I said before that one set of facts has to be picked over the other. So, either unicron is well armored and impervious to almost any mundane damage, or he s brittle as a house of cards. One cannot have this both ways, as I said before.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Again. You think the animators were gonna draw camera zooms in to detail every blaster shot...? lol

To gain the kind of damage you would need the Willises to accomplish, then yes. The damage you are going for needs to be seen to be beleived.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ah so the large explosion that wasnt shown coming form Galvatron's blasts at any other point just produced all that from nowhere, eh? 🙄 Animator flaw as it certainly wasn't Hotrod exploding.... Go ahead. Deny there were animator flaws...

I never denied them, in fact, this also leads to my above statement. the G1 series AND the movie have animation errors and scale errors and continuity errors aplenty, among many other errors, ect ect.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
EXACT same? I dont think so. They traversed areas in their conflict. Besides which given the interlocking. shifting nature of the massive transformer that Unicron was, is it inconcieveable to you that different panels had different properties? And if not, how comes some parts were so easily damaged if they all have uniform strength? Are you now saying that Arcee's blaster is more powerful that Galvatron's? (Rhetorical, since its obvious that you are now saying that...

Uhm, no. Hot Rod traversed a good bit of it, but Galvatron was stationary for most of the encounter, barring being struck by Hot Rod three times. He barely moved more than 10 to 20 meters.

And Unicron did not transform during their battle, the area did not shift around, thats another claim.

Your not getting my point are you? No, Arcee's blaster is not more powerful that Galvatron's canon in either mode, She struck the pipe 6 imes at the exact same point to get that effect, Daniel's blast had to hit a load bearing arm twice. and Galvatron was scoring cosmetic damage at best while firing at Hot Rod. None of the shots are consistent, Unicron's internal durability, even in the same room, is woefully inconsistent, and because your arguments require reliance on inconsistency (as mine also does since we are using the same evidence) then we are at ain impassable impasse.

When this happens, it is up to the OP to decide which set of facts he would like debated, and since the OP is Focus, it is up to him, and I'm pretty sure I know which way he tilts. Depending on his actual clarification (which is what I originally asked for) will determine wether or not I remain in this thread.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ahhhh blue stuff. Yes cause all blue flames are clearly matrix energy, right?

Just like Devastator crushed the Matrix here at 00:21...

YouTube video

I'm going to use your excuse and say "ANIMATION ERROR!"

At least the Galvatron scene is explainable that way, and doesn't require the fallacious notion that Unicron is as brittle as sandstones.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Oh...so you DIDN'T say this?

How does that warrant the response you gave me? 😕

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
*Sigh* The evidence is right in front of your face, and you still can't see it.... thyat or sarcasm obviously does not register well with you. The blue energy trail coming from the hole Sadako...

When this happens, it is up to the OP to decide which set of facts he would like debated, and since the OP is Focus, it is up to him, and I'm pretty sure I know which way he tilts. Depending on his actual clarification (which is what I originally asked for) will determine wether or not I remain in this thread.

Well thats up to you, of course. Yeah I know that logic/reason is the side he generally sides with, so what that will mean to you is something only you would know.

Originally posted by Lestov16
How does that warrant the response you gave me? 😕

And you also threw in your trademark insults accusing people of crushes and stuff because you don't agree with them which is retarded. That might be the way you are with your fav character, but its not how other play ball so stop projecting your values onto others..

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I'm going to use your excuse and say "ANIMATION ERROR!"

At least the Galvatron scene is explainable that way, and doesn't require the fallacious notion that Unicron is as brittle as sandstones.

Not my "excuse"... its fact. (Unless you can tell us all what exploded on Hotrod which was not shown..)

Nope your reasoning for Galvatron not smashing or warping when being thrown (SLOWLY) into and through one of Unicron's walls as matrix related will not stand. As your only 'evidence' for your supposition is that there is blue stuff coming out of the hole.
And Ive shown the blue flames are not solely a Matrix property.

Parts of Unicron are brittle, others soft and damageable, subject to blunt truama, heat and other forces as shown.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Even though the Matrix was yet to be opened at that point..
..and Unicron was not showing any reaction to Rodimus like he immediately did when it was opened, you mean?

He reacted as soon as Galvatron was within earshot of Hot Rod. He demanded galvatron kill him becayse he was deathly afraid. And the Matrix was shining it's light well before it was opened, it gave Hot Rod teh Rodimus juice, it cased the No Sell effect against galvatron's arm cannon, there is no reason to think it didn't have detrimental effects to the surroundings (IE: Unicron)

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yeah it is what it is. And thats why Im right.

Ok, I'll break this down even further, because you are still not getting it...

How are you right? The arm Danny struck had to be hydraulic, because it was holding up the lid, which is obviously meant to open and close at will.
#1: If the load bearing part was on the hinge, then the arm is worthless.
#2: If the arm cannot extend or retract, then the lid does not open or close, and thus the hinge is useless.
#3: If the arm IS hydraulic, then it is not a solid peice of metal all the way through.

Now, since the lid does open and close, and since the arm has to be able to extend and retract, then it has to be hydraulic in nature and by design, and since the arm obviously supported the weight and stability of the lid, AND since it frigging well LOOKS lyke a hydraulic arm, then it IS a hydraulic arm.

Are we done with this point yet?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Megatron's fingers scarred him, Arcee's ladyblaster was able to shoot through his pipes causing a huge flood, Galvatron was thrown through him, the Dinobots were able to burn and shoot through him, yeah The Willises, Willi whatever are in with a chance especiaily given their perchance for being in shit and blowing said shit up.

And armed with inferior weapons compared to the above mentioned characters, don't forget that.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Unicron is a damageable machine as shown onscreen.

Considering the damage he sustained earlier in the movie, (Moob Base 2, the entire Decepticon armada throwing everything they had at him and doing nothing, including Galvatron) then it's again, inconsistent.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Like destroying most of the inside of his head, or even just his brain or memory centers? How about blowing up his eyes?

The point being that they have to GET to his head first, not an easy thing to do considering where they start at.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well then: Given the logic of a damageable Unicron as shown by screenfeats, along with the effectiveness of the Exosuit which obviously wasnt a mistake, was deliberate, whats the problem?

you mangled this quote BTW.

the problem is that the Exosuits one onscreen feat would not match against what it took to actually cause any significant or even noticable damage. It would take literally years for the Willises to do anything, and as I said ages ago, unless Focus equips them with eternal energy generators, the suits will run dry in anywhere from a few hours to a few days, especially if they are shooting at absolutely everything.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
One YOU just made, not I.

You claimed that Unicron's innards where in constant motion, not me.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I got it just fine, just trying to gently rock you out of the mud you seem to be stuck in right now and provoke actual questioning and reasoning within you rather than having you come in with mind made up and altering screefeats perception just to suit you predisposed/preconcieved outlook.
Its obvious that that explosion meant something other than the deflections that were shown at the other times he fired.

What? No seriously, what?

Look, I'll post the other 2 screen caps of Galvy's arm cannon hits, they are not as big as you think.

First set of Arm Canon hits. You have some plate buckling, but no big gaping holes.

2nd set of arm canon hits. Including the one you reffered to as struking under Hot Rod (the one closest to the viwer). Again, some buckled plates, and no gaping holes.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well thats up to you, of course. Yeah I know that logic/reason is the side he generally sides with, so what that will mean to you is something only you would know.

Logic and reason? No. You like twisting things to suit yourself and ignoring one set of facts and cling to whatever suits yourself. Thats fine. I don't care either way.

Oh dear. You're throwing your toys out of the pram, in rage, aren't you...

You need to post where I said Unicron's innards are in constant motion. Because I didnt, and you can't.
Its Transformers. Is Bumblebee a regular VW? "He sure looks like one"Nope he is an alien robot from another galaxy.
Do you mean to suggest that Unicron orders his parts from earthern manufacturers because he has parts that LOOK like hydraulic arms to you? (Despite his tech being way more advanced than ours? And not having been to earth?)

I'll just proceed from the postion of knowing that you don't know what youre talking about anymore and you have just lost your temper, which the rest of your post would seem to confirm.
The rest of your points have been covered.

Oh well. No sleep lost here.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Not my "excuse"... its fact. (Unless you can tell us all what exploded on Hotrod which was not shown..)

Hrmmm, I have work in the morning, so I don't have time to take another bunch of screen caps for you to prove how much bullshit that line of reasoning actually is. But I may be able to do it when I return.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Nope your reasoning for Galvatron not smashing or warping when being thrown (SLOWLY) into and through one of Unicron's walls as matrix related will not stand. As your only 'evidence' for your supposition is that there is blue stuff coming out of the hole.
And Ive shown the blue flames are not solely a Matrix property.

No, I said it was one possible explanation that does not negate his other durability feats with sheer ridiculousness. The other is that it was PIS.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Parts of Unicron are brittle, others soft and damageable, subject to blunt truama, heat and other forces as shown.

Except when they are not, right? like Moob Base 2, Deceptincons swarming and shooting him up and down with all they have all at once, and Galvatron striking the external armor repeatedly. 😆

A more reasoned tone. Thats better.

Why screencap? I have the movie, thanks..

Some parts are different to others.
Proven.

"Deceptincons"..? You mangled that quote... 😉

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Oh dear. You're throwing your toys out of the pram, in rage, aren't you...

You need to post where I said Unicron's innards are in constant motion. Because I didnt, and you can't, I'll just proceed from the postion of knowing that you don't know what youre talking about anymore and you have just lost your temper, which the rest of your post would seem to confirm.
The rest of your points have been covered.

Oh well. No sleep lost here.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
EXACT same? I dont think so. They traversed areas in their conflict. Besides which given the interlocking. shifting nature of the massive transformer that Unicron was, is it inconcieveable to you that different panels had different properties? And if not, how comes some parts were so easily damaged if they all have uniform strength? Are you now saying that Arcee's blaster is more powerful that Galvatron's? (Rhetorical, since its obvious that you are now saying that.. [/B]

If you are going to lie, at least do it in a place where I can't look back and throw it right back in your face eh? 🙄

And no, Your non answer only proves that you've run out of ammo and steam.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
A more reasoned tone. Thats better.
Some parts are different to others.
Proven.

"Deceptincons" You mangled that quote... 😉

Well "Tone" doesn't really exist in written format but meh 😉

Some parts are indeed different to others. BUT, that doesn't explain away the durability inconsistences all the way. Example, Moob Base 2's explosion managed to encompass his entire body, and likely would have rocked his innards something fierce. if any part of him was bult like butter, it would have gone right through.

Then we have the Decepticon swarm that was shooting him all over the place, including The Revenge flagship that had literally reduced an Autobot ship to free floating debris.

I mispelled "Decepticons". I must now hang myself. 🙁

You failed to provide a quote where I said his plates was in constant motion. You are the liar/mispresenter or at least gross misunderstander, probably out of butthurt.

Because its abundantly, crystal clear I was referring to WHEN HE TRANSFORMS.....

Thusly, you've just thrown your own shit back in your OWN face. Enjoy your poo moustache.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Because its abundantly, crystal clear I was referring to WHEN HE TRANSFORMS.....

And yet, he never transformed during the Hot Rod vs Galvatron battle, the variable durability occurs well after the transformation.

And let me ask you again, why would he lower his durability in his humanoid form, when he knows he is going into battle? His humanoid form is obviously there for fighting with. And at his size, fights are very... big in nature.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Thusly, you've just thrown your own shit back in your OWN face. Enjoy your poo moustache.

Ohh, ouch, touchy today... your tone offends me sir.

And no, the quote I provided never mentioned transformation, so put your chillax hat back on.

Didnt say he did. But he sure did BEFORE then. Distributing his mass, altering its configuration, shifting par- actually Im not gonna explain what a transformation is.

He wouldn't. His design inherently would.
He probably did it because Cybertron was too big for his smaller planet mode. And the spectre of a massive form like that was probably more terrifying for his opposition and made the classic mistake of the big thing underestimating the capabilities of the small thing to destroy him before he could be stopped..

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Didnt say he did. But he sure did BEFORE then. Distributing his mass, altering its configuration, shifting par- actually Im not gonna explain what a transformation is.

I know quite well what transformation can and does entail. But it seems you are one of those that subscribes to the theory that he alters his mass the same way as Megatron and Soundwave do. He does not do this. Nor does the shifting of parts automatically make them more brittle. he is still made of the exact same parts. Moving them around does not alter that they are there.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
He wouldn't. His design inherently would.
He probably did it because Cybertron was too big for his smaller planet mode. And the spectre of a massive form like that was probably more terrifying for his opposition and made the classic mistake of the big thing underestimating the capabilities of the small thing to destroy him before he could be stopped..

See, this requires a hefty amount of scientific analysis, and that is something I'm unwilling to do for this thread, especially due to the inconsistency involved. That said, I'm also far from convinced that because he changes shape that his external armor becomes more brittle in the proccess, because that defies all logic and does not work. All the parts that survived the explosion are still there.

And yes, even in planet mode, we have ridiculous damage on Unicron in the form of Megatron scratching the surface of one of his tusks, something that is designed to go through planets and survived several hits from Galvatron's full canon mode, along with the pounding from the Decepticon armada and were at ground zero for Moon Base 2's detonation.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
[B]I know quite well what transformation can and does entail. But it seems you are one of those that subscribes to the theory that he alters his mass the same way as Megatron and Soundwave do. He does not do this. Nor does the shifting of parts automatically make them more brittle. he is still made of the exact same parts. Moving them around does not alter that they are there.

See, this requires a hefty amount of scientific analysis, and that is something I'm unwilling to do for this thread, especially due to the inconsistency involved. That said, I'm also far from convinced that because he changes shape that his external armor becomes more brittle in the proccess, because that defies all logic and does not work. All the parts that survived the explosion are still there.

Then feel free to disengage. Im not saying that it becomes more brittle int he process. Im saying that parts not on the outside on planetoid mode are on the outside in Robot mode, and the reverse is true for parts that are on the outside in planetoid mode. EG Unicron's brittle eyes and arse parts, and side that Galvatron crashed through.