Originally posted by Darkstorm ZeroWe also have nothing to suggest that it could either, considering we have had a grand total of one demonstration of those blasters. I'm not prepared to attribute an undemonstrated capability to a weapon, why are you?
Im not Im going off of demonstrated feats only.
Its you who assumed that Arcee's was more powerful with zero evidence.
One shot through a bit of Unicron, the other shot through a bit of Unicron. Unicron is therefore not indestructable.
A human hand held drill is a far cry from Nozecone's drill tank drill...And melee weapons are used all the time by the Transformers.
All the time? Very occasional energon axes/maces/swords and dinobot energo swords aside, its usually blasters.
Watch any side armed with projectile weapons fight as side with 'close quarters only' weapons available and you'll see why.
Not just range at stake there, but destructive force a lot of the time too, in addition to speed of delivery..
Did Megatron mele weapon the Autobots on the shuttle? Or did he transform into his gun mode and simply shoot them...?
And since your citing the cartoon again: Watch 'the Five faces of darkness.' Cyclonus just walks right on through to Unicron's brain center...without having to use anything at all.
Your argument is moot.
But I am also not casting the assumtion that the Exosuit can match Arcee's feat with literally no evidence either. Your's requires an assumption of matching firepower, mine on the otherhand does not. Until the Exosuit blasters actually does perform a similar feat, we cannot assume it can match or exceed the feat of another weapon.
Well if assuming matching power is a no-no (although theres no reason to at all) lets then assume that Daniel's exosuit is more powerful. There are two gun arms after all..
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Im not Im going off of demonstrated feats only.
Its you who assumed that Arcee's was more powerful with zero evidence.
One shot through a bit of Unicron, the other shot through a bit of Unicron. Unicron is therefore not indestructable.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Unless and until one can prove the Exosuits blasters actually match Arcee's pistol, then it is NOT as powerful, because what it did shoot (a hydraulic arm) is not as impressive as shooting through a pipe/grating/solid wall. Without evidence, don't claim it.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
All the time? Very occasional energon axes/maces/swords and dinobot energo swords aside, its usually blasters.
Watch any side armed with projectile weapons fight as side with 'close quarters only' weapons available and you'll see why.
Not just range at stake there, but destructive force a lot of the time too, in addition to speed of delivery..
Did Megatron mele weapon the Autobots on the shuttle? Or did he transform into his gun mode and simply shoot them...?
Strawmanning. Your assertation does nothing to change the issue here.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And since your citing the cartoon again: Watch 'the Five faces of darkness.' Cyclonus just walks right on through to Unicron's brain center...without having to use anything at all.
Your argument is moot.
The entire line of questioning is because Focus cited nosecone as an excuse that the Exosuits could muscle their way through Unicron's innards with physical blows! As I said before, I did not start that train wreck, and you continued it, do not try and heap that on me.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well if assuming matching power is a no-no (although theres no reason to at all) lets then assume that Daniel's exosuit is more powerful. There are two gun arms after all..
Proof that they are more powerful?
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Unless and until one can prove the Exosuits blasters actually match Arcee's pistol, then it is NOT as powerful, because what it did shoot (a hydraulic arm) is not as impressive as shooting through a pipe/grating/solid wall. Without evidence, don't claim it.
Strawmanning. Your assertation does nothing to change the issue here.
The entire line of questioning is because Focus cited nosecone as an excuse that the Exosuits could muscle their way through Unicron's innards with physical blows! As I said before, I did not start that train wreck, and you continued it, do not try and heap that on me.
Proof that they are more powerful?
The effect of each shot is doubled. Accumulative totalage. Also: Proof that they are not?
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Rubbish. You have no evidence that Acrees blasters are as powerful as the combined shots of both blasters or even single shots. Yet still you carry on strawmanning.
(as the original point is that Unicron is damageble.)
And you have no evidence to assert that the Exosuit isnt as powerful as Arcees' pistol.
The evidence is onscreen Sadako, Arcee's blasters actually accomplished a feat, the exosuits blasters did nothing in comparison. They shot a load bearing hydraulic arm. this is NOTHING like shooting through solid wall if you had your way, and is more comparable slightly to shooting a pipe.
See, this is the thing, you guys cannot have it both ways, it simply does not work. The wall Arcee shot is either solid wall, in which case the shooting of the hydraulic arm is absolutely worthless in comparison, even if they were made of the exact same material. Or she shot through a pipe and grating, in which case the comparison of firepower is closer, but it still means that neither are going to be shooting through solid wall because Galvatron. Take your pick gentlemen.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
As mentioned above, its you whom are strawmanning.
read above and below. You've run off of assumption, and tried to have your cake and eat it too with reguards to firepower.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I didnt see him say "with physical blows." Wanna provide a quote/link, otherwise Im gonna have to put that down to you having misundertood or strawmanned.
Ok, sure no problem.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
"grimlock's new brain". a brain which was guarded by an undamaged wall which was drilled through like drywall by a drill tank autobot. (Quickswitch?) firefight ensues and lots of critical looking brain stuff blows up.
Here is when he first claimed that due to Nosecone's drill (Physical force) the Exosuits can do sililar with blasters (Energy damage) at first. 2 very different forms of damage for starters.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
right so it was actually a magical wall only vulnerable to one particular drill. "durabilyum"? are we trying to shoehorn more comic book nonesense into the discussion for the win, AGAIN?they have built in blasters and can throw heavy objects, both of which have proven to suck for unicrons insides.
And the "throwing heavy objects" for 2, and neither in no way compares to the drill. And I'm strawmanning? No.
Also, I seem to remember him going on about Daniel running through those 2 Decepticons on Junk and tried to use it as leverage for saying the exosuits can muscle their way through IIRC. That was before I joined in this debate.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
The effect of each shot is doubled. Accumulative totalage. Also: Proof that they are not?
It's not on me to prove a negative, it is you who made the positive claim, thus you must provide the positive evidence. And no, the beams don't combine Death Star style and suddenly produce a more powerful shot.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The evidence is onscreen Sadako, Arcee's blasters actually accomplished a feat, the exosuits blasters did nothing in comparison. They shot a load bearing hydraulic arm. this is NOTHING like shooting through solid wall if you had your way, and is more comparable slightly to shooting a pipe.
You assert now that the wall was solid?
The exosuit blasters destroyed their target Which as pointed out earlier were obviously resistant to heat, and was load baring being attatched to a smeltling pool and therefore WAS solid and given that and that:
A) It was a smaller target
B) The kid taking the shot did so under vast pressure, indicating the impressiveness of targetting system
C) The shot went through said object with no problem
D) There are two guns delivering charges, rather than Arcee's one
This is all evidence enough of the Exo's effectiveness.
See, this is the thing, you guys cannot have it both ways, it simply does not work. The wall Arcee shot is either solid wall, in which case the shooting of the hydraulic arm is absolutely worthless in comparison, even if they were made of the exact same material. Or she shot through a pipe and grating, in which case the comparison of firepower is closer, but it still means that neither are going to be shooting through solid wall because Galvatron. Take your pick gentlemen.
Because of Galvatron how? He shot the floor up fine. And you tried to deny this saying Hotrod would have fallen through, which is rubbish:
A) The blast being under Hotrod would have blown him up not down into the crater/hole.
B) Hotrod had forward motion at speed, meaning that he would have cleared the shot area.
read above and below. You've run off of assumption, and tried to have your cake and eat it too with reguards to firepower.
Here is when he first claimed that due to Nosecone's drill (Physical force) the Exosuits can do sililar with blasters (Energy damage) at first. 2 very different forms of damage for starters.And the "throwing heavy objects" for 2, and neither in no way compares to the drill. And I'm strawmanning? No.
Also, I seem to remember him going on about Daniel running through those 2 Decepticons on Junk and tried to use it as leverage for saying the exosuits can muscle their way through IIRC. That was before I joined in this debate.
Well the Junk planet rush feat stands.
As I said. Cyclonus' "walk right through unimpeded in Five faces of darkness" feat its all irrelevant anyways.
It's not on me to prove a negative, it is you who made the positive claim, thus you must provide the positive evidence. And no, the beams don't combine Death Star style and suddenly produce a more powerful shot.
I didnt say that. And Ive just proven your chosen area of debate moot. To persist down that route would indeed be strawmanning. 🙂
remember: it's impossible for the pinchers to be blown up with exo-blasters...with no evidence other than a lack of an actual scene of it happening. OF COURSE whatever the exo-blasters hit just happened to be unicron's foreign shit-metal, because he says so.and now since you cant prove his wild baseless assertion false it means he's right and wins the thread!!!
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
You assert now that the wall was solid?
The exosuit blasters destroyed their target Which as pointed out earlier were obviously resistant to heat, and was load baring being attatched to a smeltling pool and therefore WAS solid and given that and that:
A) It was a smaller target
B) The kid taking the shot did so under vast pressure, indicating the impressiveness of targetting system
C) The shot went through said object with no problem
D) There are two guns delivering charges, rather than Arcee's oneThis is all evidence enough of the Exo's effectiveness.
#1: No, I'm saying that solid or pipe, it doesn't matter either way.
#2: Acid is not heat, it's corrosion.
#3: Hydraulics are not solid all the way through.
#4A: Irrelevant
#4B: There was no targeting system, and this was demonstrated by at least 2 to 3 missed shots before he scored the arm.
#4C: The shot didn't go through, it detonated.
#4D: The number of weapons is irrelevant if their firepower does not exceed.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Because of Galvatron how? He shot the floor up fine. And you tried to deny this saying Hotrod would have fallen through, which is rubbish:
A) The blast being under Hotrod would have blown him up not down into the crater/hole.
B) Hotrod had forward motion at speed, meaning that he would have cleared the shot area.
Galvatron's cannon is orders of magnitude greater than both Arcee and Daniel's weapons, and yet the damage he did do was cosmetic at best. He wasn't blowing vast holes in Unicron, which is the point.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Right back atcha.
No dude, as I already explained, I've not run off assumtption. And i'm certainly not strawmanning.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well the Junk planet rush feat stands.
As I said. Cyclonus' "walk right through unimpeded in Five faces of darkness" feat its all irrelevant anyways.
And so, now you resort to cartoon showings eh? Cyclonus walked through the eye, the technobots came up through the neckhole. But this is scemantics. Act of plot had nosecone demonstrate his drill, Cyclonus not demonstrating his jaunt is very much irrelevant, unless the Willis clones are now starting inside Unicron's head.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I didnt say that. And Ive just proven your chosen area of debate moot. To persist down that route would indeed be strawmanning. 🙂
Accumulative totelage? Thats your proof? And how does that render it moot? I'm no the one asking you to prove a negative here, you want to throw a logical fallacy at me.... by using a logical fallacy... Excellent.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
remember: it's impossible for the pinchers to be blown up with exo-blasters...with no evidence other than a lack of an actual scene of it happening. OF COURSE whatever the exo-blasters hit just happened to be unicron's foreign shit-metal, because he says so.and now since you cant prove his wild baseless assertion false it means he's right and wins the thread!!!
Are you for real? Your little doggy act is old...
I didn't say anything about the pincers durability for starters, so please don't go trying to put words in my mouth. The pincers are neither solid wall, nor are they hydraulic arms, they are prehensile cables, anything else you want to fart into existance while I am still paying you the attention you don't deserve?
You are the one who claimed that certain parts of Unicron are more armored than the rest to downplay the Moon Base explosion, not me. Thats your logic. If you want to make claims as absurd as this, then be prepared to have it turn against you. And whie I am on this point, since when is a hydraulic arm as armoured and thick as a solid wall? you never answered that and went on a wild tangent about different metals. it doesn't matter if they are both made out of pig-iron, the wall is always going to be more resistant to damage than a load bearing hydraulic arm, because of the thickness and the stability.
What wild baseless assertations are you trying to force-feed now? As I said, it is not logically possible to prove a negative, it is incumbent on the ones who made the positive claims to provide the positive evidence. The methods of debating - learn it.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
#1: No, I'm saying that solid or pipe, it doesn't matter either way.#2: Acid is not heat, it's corrosion.
#3: Hydraulics are not solid all the way through.
#4A: Irrelevant
#4B: There was no targeting system, and this was demonstrated by at least 2 to 3 missed shots before he scored the arm.
#4C: The shot didn't go through, it detonated.
#4D: The number of weapons is irrelevant if their firepower does not exceed.
3) So? Thats irrelevant, isn't it. Who said it was a hydraulic arm? We saw no oil escaping when shot.
4) Oh right, you have that much faith in Daniel's ability to get those shots in under presssure? and to hit something like six inches wide from 100ft in a suit he was not totally familiar with after just a few hours usage, using a totally new function he had no experience with? LOL
4c) You cannot actually be serious.
Galvatron's cannon is orders of magnitude greater than both Arcee and Daniel's weapons, and yet the damage he did do was cosmetic at best. He wasn't blowing vast holes in Unicron, which is the point.
No dude, as I already explained, I've not run off assumtption. And i'm certainly not strawmanning.
And so, now you resort to cartoon showings eh? Cyclonus walked through the eye, the technobots came up through the neckhole. But this is scemantics. Act of plot had nosecone demonstrate his drill, Cyclonus not demonstrating his jaunt is very much irrelevant, unless the Willis clones are now starting inside Unicron's head.
Nope. But you did earlier so Im just countering it before laying the notion to sleep.
Sure why dont they? Its the logical starting point of entry, judging by TF movie feats..
Accumulative totelage? Thats your proof? And how does that render it moot? I'm no the one asking you to prove a negative here, you want to throw a logical fallacy at me.... by using a logical fallacy... Excellent.
Its my proof that eight blasters are better than one Arcee gun.
But I havent employed logical fallacy at all..
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Are you for real? Your little doggy act is old...I didn't say anything about the pincers durability for starters, so please don't go trying to put words in my mouth. The pincers are neither solid wall, nor are they hydraulic arms, they are prehensile cables, anything else you want to fart into existance while I am still paying you the attention you don't deserve?
You are the one who claimed that certain parts of Unicron are more armored than the rest to downplay the Moon Base explosion, not me. Thats your logic. If you want to make claims as absurd as this, then be prepared to have it turn against you. And whie I am on this point, since when is a hydraulic arm as armoured and thick as a solid wall? you never answered that and went on a wild tangent about different metals. it doesn't matter if they are both made out of pig-iron, the wall is always going to be more resistant to damage than a load bearing hydraulic arm, because of the thickness and the stability.
What wild baseless assertations are you trying to force-feed now? As I said, it is not logically possible to prove a negative, it is incumbent on the ones who made the positive claims to provide the positive evidence. The methods of debating - learn it.
You asserted that the only reason Galvatron was sent crashing through Unicron's side was that the Matrix has weakened it. You assumed this even though the Matrix was not opened at this point.
You asserted that the arm lifting the lid of the vat was hydraulic and therefore not solid. With no evidence, and the fact that risking acids dripping one drop on a hydraulic arm would have the arm failing, and a pressurised jet of compressed fluid likely cutting into or through surrounding surfaces/things. Hell of a design flaw, that would be.
The fact that Unicron seemed to be invulnerable to Galvatron on the outside and in some spots on the inside but not others, especially when he went crashing through after being thrown suggests that Focus was right..as does the Dinobots being able to do what they did to his arse... this could all explain why in Plent mode, more compact, different interal map, its not hard to imagine that his armour is more concentrated on the inside to facilitate easier munching of whole planets, some of which might fight back or have thing on them that might explode.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
2) It could have been hot acid, but either way: It wasn't very resistant to photon charges. Proving the Exosuit wasn't shooting roses and sweet nothings.
The only way acid produces heat is when it is actively melting something, and given the size of what goes in is not all that big, the amount of heat at any one time is not going to be smelting pool heat anyways.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
3) So? Thats irrelevant, isn't it. Who said it was a hydraulic arm? We saw no oil escaping when shot.
So, oil splashes and doesn't burn when hit with a directed energy weapon now? Keep the crazy ascertations coming, it amuses me.
Check the screen caps below and then come and tell me that wasn't a hydraulic arm.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
4) Oh right, you have that much faith in Daniel's ability to get those shots in under presssure? and to hit something like six inches wide from 100ft in a suit he was not totally familiar with after just a few hours usage, using a totally new function he had no experience with? LOL
As I will demonstrate below, Daniel missed at least 3 shots. And unless you can actually demonstrate this amazing non-existant aimbot, then it doesn't exist, period.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
4c) You cannot actually be serious.
Oh but I am serious, and I have direct screen caps to prove it. Observe:
Danny's first shots with the thing, scoring on the lid itself, and failing to do any damage whatsoever, despite both beams striking.
2nd shot hit the roof/air and did nothing.
3rd shot hit the arm bracket and didn't penetrate at all. nor did it damage it.
4th shot strikes and explodes...
and doesn't plow through, it simply detonates.
I'm sorry, did you hear that? That is the sound of your point being flushed down the toilet.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yet Arcee flooded the place after having fractured a pipe, and Danlel was able to balst the cover supoort, and Rodimus was able to throw Galvatron clear through Unicron's side, the wall making such lack of effect on Galvatron's inertia that he was carried into deep space LOL.
And once more, we go back to screen shots for the answer: Arcee firing 6 shots without altering her aim
1st shot
2nd shot
3rd shot
4th shot, see how at the point of impact had no prior damage?
4th shot forms a little hole in the grating.
5th shot impact.
5th shot, hole gets a little bigger, exposing the piping.
6th shot, which travels through a claw cable mind you, impacts.
6th shot breaches the piping.
fluid pressure and force widens the breach.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
But you are.
I'm sure you would have no trouble explaining it then. Without resorting to putting false words ibn my mouth, that is.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Nope. But you did earlier so Im just countering it before laying the notion to sleep.
Sure why dont they? Its the logical starting point of entry, judging by TF movie feats..
I did no such thing Sadako. Focus brought Nosecone up not me. I even quotes it to you, so stop attributing things to me that I have not done!
No, because if it follows the movie, then they have to go through his body since if they get munched and are on the acid conveyor, then that is NOT in his head.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Its my proof that eight blasters are better than one Arcee gun.
But I havent employed logical fallacy at all..
No, you simply state they are, thats not evidence, thats an oppinion.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
You asserted that the only reason Galvatron was sent crashing through Unicron's side was that the Matrix has weakened it. You assumed this even though the Matrix was not opened at this point.
I was waiting for you to try and use this point.
Nope, no Matrix energy up in here... at all...
The fact that it had just upgraded Hotrod to Rodimus, and the fact that it had been glowing all the time Galvatron was getting no-selled by Rodimus's chestplate... means no Matrix was ever involved...
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
You asserted that the arm lifting the lid of the vat was hydraulic and therefore not solid. With no evidence, and the fact that risking acids dripping one drop on a hydraulic arm would have the arm failing, and a pressurised jet of compressed fluid likely cutting into or through surrounding surfaces/things. Hell of a design flaw, that would be.
The fact that Unicron seemed to be invulnerable to Galvatron on the outside and in some spots on the inside but not others, especially when he went crashing through after being thrown suggests that Focus was right..as does the Dinobots being able to do what they did to his arse... this could all explain why in Plent mode, more compact, different interal map, its not hard to imagine that his armour is more concentrated on the inside to facilitate easier munching of whole planets, some of which might fight back or have thing on them that might explode.
#1: Look at the screen shot Garth, it IS Hydraulic.
#2: You fob around vulnerabilities and then have the gall to accuse me of making ascertations without proof. The fact is that it is far more likely that the damage to unicron was more for plot convenience rather than fact. Consider this, As big as Unicron is, and what he does, what else would he have had to survive up until that point? meteor showers, black holes, ion storms, and all kinds of outer space stuff that would make most transformers cringe at the thought.
Galvatron firing at Unicron.
Unicron no sell to the cheek.
No sell to the horns, repeatedly.
No sell to the forhead.
Galvatron's canon mode striking internal area.
absolutely undamaged.
And that internal area was the exact same area where Rodimus later threw galvatron out of Unicron. For the armoring of an area to actually work against explosions like Moon Base 2, the whole area needs to be armored for it to work, but it is not.
I have to apollogise for the multiple posts, the forums don't like too many images in one post, so I had to separate them.