Originally posted by Digi
Quantum theorists have tried, to no avail. And it makes sense, since uncertainty is an inherent trait of quantum mechanics.
No it doesn't, it makes no sense at all. Free will is "the ability to make choices". If quantum mechanics randomly picks a choice for you that's determinism, not free will.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No it doesn't, it makes no sense at all. Free will is "the ability to make choices". If quantum mechanics randomly picks a choice for you that's determinism, not free will.
Well, that's kind of the point. I'm in agreement with you. Intuitively, I meant, not mathematically or empirically.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Does it concern you that most "Christians" are going to Hell?
It does.
Most people in the pews of a church these days aren't saved. They give their hour every Sunday morning and then go out and live the complete opposite of what God tells us in His Word. They don't even really believe what the Bible says, anyway. If they did, they wouldn't live the way that they do.
The problem is that the pastors are more interested in making money and "not rocking the boat" than preaching the Gospel and the Word of God.
All you hear in the modern-day church is "God loves you and wants you to be prosperous." You don't hear about sin, condemnation, hell, or even salvation.
Joel Osteen, one of the most popular televangelists out there, tells flowery little stories and anecdotes about how God loves you and wants you to prosper, but doesn't preach the Gospel. How can a person get saved if they have never heard the Gospel message?
So yeah, it concerns me quite a bit.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Grace.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16)
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)
We are saved by the grace of God through faith.
The faith that saves us is centered on Jesus Christ.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16)
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)
We are saved by the grace of God through faith.
The faith that saves us is centered on Jesus Christ.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
You're too religious.
Moreover, you base far too many of your decisions and form your ideas of reality according to your perceptions of one religion. It's the same as biasm against religions such as Hinduism or Muslim and fits my description of philosophical closed-mindedness.
Though I doubt you'd claim scientific knowledge without empirical backing like I half-seriously tend to do sometimes. 👆
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Knowledge of possible outcomes is not knowledge of the actual outcome.
Except that it is.
It includes the set of actual outcome and I also requote myself for why even the seemingly "unknown" portion is still pretty much known under my definition of omniscience.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
A God who knows all the possible outcomes but not the actual outcomes is not only not omniscient,
By your narrow definition of omniscience, maybe.
By my narrow definition, it is not. 😉
Originally posted by Omega Vision
that God isn't even truly clairvoyant.
I think you missed this part:
Originally posted by dadudemon
God can get extremely close due to his wisdom and knowledge of us but he technically does not know with a 100% surety where our free will takes us along the nearly infinite amount of choices we can take.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
This model of God is more akin to an incredibly powerful computer that can create infinite projections that are all feasible and equally possible but none of which are--by your own admission--certain predictions.
I would remove the "equally possible" portion of that statement because not all outcomes/choices would be equal in such a scenario: see above requote for why I say this.
Additionally, the computer aspect of God's intelligence is only one faucet of such a being.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
In fact, to take it further, you might not even be able to say that this God "knows" these possible outcomes if they're all only "can happen" and none of them are "will happen."
But how would you go about proving that unless you yourself we also omniscient, as I defined it? 🙂
Originally posted by Omega Vision
To paraphrase Saul Kripke's objection to Lewis's Modal Realism: "No one would care to know if they were the possible president, they'd rather know if they were to be the actual president."
Which would be a/n bad/off statement regarding the intelligence of God if God is omniscient in the way I describe.
"God, should I take this job on the other side of the world?"
"No, because you are needed more at your current location."
God can answer that prayer because God knows all the possible outcomes had the person moved to the other side of the world.
In fact, my definition of God's omniscience is more useful than the narrow and paradoxical one you are using. You like your definition specifically because it creates the paradox. Mine avoids it while still allowing at least spiritual interaction.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Its significantly worse than that. The computer would at least have some concept of what is likely or probable and thus could make some kind of decisions based on that, God cannot even have a concept of likelihood within endangering free will. Dadude's concept of God is identical to a being that knows nothing.
I think you are talking about a being I did not describe. The being you refer to is the one Omega created but was not representative of the qualities I assigned the word "omniscience."
Originally posted by Bat Dude
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16)
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)
We are saved by the grace of God through faith.
The faith that saves us is centered on Jesus Christ.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/heathen.htm
The Heathen is saved by Grace, as well.
You're too religious.Moreover, you base far too many of your decisions and form your ideas of reality according to your perceptions of one religion. It's the same as biasm against religions such as Hinduism or Muslim and fits my description of philosophical closed-mindedness.
Though I doubt you'd claim scientific knowledge without empirical backing like I half-seriously tend to do sometimes. thumb up
Thank the Lord, I'm saved.
I'd rather be saved than "open-minded".
Originally posted by dadudemon
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/heathen.htmThe Heathen is saved by Grace, as well.
Only if they are converted.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)
Jesus is the only way to heaven. It's not the popular answer, but it's the answer nonetheless.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Only if they are converted."Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)
Jesus is the only way to heaven. It's not the popular answer, but it's the answer nonetheless.
*high five*
I agree, fully. They must be genuinely converted when given that chance either upon death (there was a scripture that site referenced stating that they would be given a chance immediately upon death to accept it) or in life.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
crylaugh
Originally posted by dadudemon
*high five*I agree, fully. They must be genuinely converted when given that chance either upon death (there was a scripture that site referenced stating that they would be given a chance immediately upon death to accept it) or in life.
Hebrews 9:27 totally debunks this notion, though.
So does the part in Luke about Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man died, and when he awoke, he was in hell. No second chance. No "postmortem evangelization."
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)
I do hope one day the Lord shows you this truth, Lucien. I don't want you to find out that hell is a very real place... by ending up there.
You see my main problem with the bible and hell has always been it just seems so unjust a punishment in some cases for a crime no one knows they committed.
For instance Native Americans were living in America after Christ but had no idea he existed. Did they go to Hell simply because they had no idea there was a Christ? Am I to believe they should burn for eternity simply because of that. It's not a just punishment to me.
What about the guy who has done good in his life way more than they ever did bad, are you telling me a decent human being will get tortured forever simply because they did not believe in Christ's grace? That once again seems like an unjust punishment to me.
IMHO, "organized religion" is the watered-down version of what was revealed to men and women with evolved consciousness, and then passed on. Being watered down, the revelation experience becomes "lost in translation"; metaphors are taken literally, and humanity's wonderful propensity for us-them thinking turns what could have been much more beneficial into quests for superiority, whether at the gross organizational level or on a subtler personal level.
Like all living things, human beings crave power: that which distances one from death terror. And when you have "God" on your side, well, it just doesn't get any better than that.
/sermon
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Hebrews 9:27 totally debunks this notion, though.So does the part in Luke about Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man died, and when he awoke, he was in hell. No second chance. No "postmortem evangelization."
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)
I do hope one day the Lord shows you this truth, Lucien. I don't want you to find out that hell is a very real place... by ending up there.
If you look at it from your Biblical, Christian perspective. Don't pretend to speak for any kind of majority.You've managed to accurately pinpoint why I hate dogmatic morality though. It creates negativity where none exists. People or acts with no ill intent and no negative outcome are labeled as sins simply to match a prescribed document, or rather, one sect's subjective interpretation of that document.
But I've had that debate on much more nuanced, controversial topics where the line is trickier to pinpoint. You're just blindly hateful, so the example is more stark.
I'm not speaking for the majority. Unfortunately, Biblical Christianity has ALWAYS been a minority, even during the supposed "age of Christian dominance" in the world.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm sure you've heard that saying before.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Ahh yes, the good old fashioned "I hope you burn in Hell" speech. Real classy. Glad to see you love your enemies as Jesus wanted.
I never said that, and am actually pretty offended that you think I did. Re-read what I posted.
I do hope one day the Lord shows you this truth, Lucien. I don't want you to find out that hell is a very real place... by ending up there.
I said I DIDN'T want Lucien to end up in hell. I want God to show him the truth before it becomes too late for him. I want him to go to heaven, but he won't if he doesn't repent and believe Jesus is Lord.
Maybe my wording wasn't the best, but I wasn't saying I hope he goes to hell. In fact, if we go to the previous page in this thread, we can see that I said the following:
If you don't do those things, you won't get saved and you will, unfortunately, end up in hell and ultimately the lake of fire (two separate places) for eternity. That's not a fate I would wish on my worst enemies. I don't want anyone, including you all, to go there, especially when the method of salvation is so simple!
But I'm just a mean old hater, right?
Originally posted by Bat Dude
I'm not speaking for the majority. Unfortunately, Biblical Christianity has ALWAYS been a minority, even during the supposed "age of Christian dominance" in the world.
Again, YOUR Biblical Christianity. Many would argue they follow the Bible quite well, and they aren't as narrow-minded and hateful as you are. There's a special form of condescension that presumes to be the/an authority on something literally millions have followed in some form, and that your only method of being more right is faith...which, ironically, is the same mechanism used by all the other "right" interpretations. I'd be insulted, but I think you're just uneducated and/or unwilling to use your critical faculties to examine other perspectives honestly.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
But I'm just a mean old hater, right?
By your profile you're, what, about 20? So you're not old. No argument on the others, though.
Originally posted by Digi
Again, YOUR Biblical Christianity. Many would argue they follow the Bible quite well, and they aren't as narrow-minded and hateful as you are. There's a special form of condescension that presumes to be the/an authority on something literally millions have followed in some form, and that your only method of being more right is faith...which, ironically, is the same mechanism used by all the other "right" interpretations. I'd be insulted, but I think you're just uneducated and/or unwilling to use your critical faculties to examine other perspectives honestly.
Just read a Bible. It's not my opinion, it's what is written in there. I try to stay away from my opinion when it comes to issues like these. I couldn't care less about opinion, unless it's backed up by scripture.
When I make a statement on religion, I try to always back it with scripture. Again, that's not my opinion, that's what the Bible says.
By your profile you're, what, about 20? So you're not old. No argument on the others, though.
Great addition to the discussion, btw...