Originally posted by Oliver North
Batdude: would you be able to enjoy heaven knowing there are people suffering for eternity?
That's a valid question.
"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." (Revelation 7:17)
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4)
It says multiple times that "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." It also says that there will be no sorrow or crying or pain. What that tells me is that in heaven, you will not dwell on nor remember anything that happened on earth regarding someone that is not in heaven with you (let's say you get saved but your mom doesn't. You won't remember your mom, as weird as that may seem).
If you can dwell on loved ones that didn't get saved, that would cause pain and sorrow because you'd realize you'd never see them again. In heaven, God will spare you the sorrow and you'll be so happy to be with Him, it'll never occur to you anyway.
What I think people who debate with Bad-Dude don't get is that in his world God is inherently good. No matter how evil something God does is (by Bat-Dude's morality or yours) the action is still good simply because God did it. If Jesus stabbed a baby in front of him that would be fine, purely because Jesus did it.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In that case we are all omniscient and you've rendered the world meaningless.
Incorrect: that's only one of the nearly infinite and we do not know the end result of our life-line until we experience the whole thing. We are not even omniscient with our own personal life's experiences because we don't even remember everything from our own lives, much less the nearly infinite possibilities for our life or the even greater set for all lives (which would include all other life in this universe and possibly others...if you believe in the attribute God has like Mormons do).
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Hebrews 9:27 totally debunks this notion, though.So does the part in Luke about Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man died, and when he awoke, he was in hell. No second chance. No "postmortem evangelization."
You must take those scriptures out of context and add in the new concept of hell (which was not there, originally, but was added later) in order for your interpretation to be correct. Then, on top of that, there are plenty of scriptures that say ALL men will be saved:
Luke 3:6
All mankind will see God's salvation. (Isaiah 40:5)
John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
1 Cor. 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
And those who seek genuinely seek God, they will find Him:
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Does not put a stipulation whether in this life or whether or not they are the "Spirits In Prison" which Jesus himself visited during his 3 day stent away form this mortal realm.
And here is the mast damming scripture against your position: it says places, even Sodom, would have repented had the miracles that were performed in Korazin and Bethsaida were performed in Sodom:
Matthew 11:21-23
Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
Quite clearly, people are saved in their ignorance and quite clearly, they will be preached to after they are dead. Else Jesus go to the spirits in prison and minister to them during his 3 day vacation?
The final nail in your perspective's coffin:
7. Postmortem evangelization and outreach: people will receive an opportunity to hear about Christ and to accept or reject him after death.
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Proponents say Mark 16:15-16 indicates that only those who explicitly reject Christ will be damned.
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mark 16:15-16
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.
2 Thessalonians 1:8
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2 Timothy 1:16-18
May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.
1 Peter 3:19-20
Through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago . . .
Originally posted by Bat Dude
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)
Originally posted by Bat Dude
I do hope one day the Lord shows you this truth, Lucien. I don't want you to find out that hell is a very real place... by ending up there.
Hell does not exist as you believe it. That is a newer concept injected into the word. You should know this if you study the history of the bible. Not even the Jews believed in hell. They called it Shoele which is basically the "spirit world" where spirits await their final judgement.
Lord Lucien will not go to hell unless he wants to go there...then it is technically not hell, at all. Remember, as the scriptures indicate, you will chose in the Spirit World, for sure, before final judgement.
Also, who is to say Lord Lucien would not forsake his current faith system if those miracles were performed in front of him and the spirit testified to his soul of the righteousness and correctness of those miracles? I know for sure that I would have absolute no faith issues if I got to experience those miracles and that testament directly from the Holy Ghost. If I got to experience that...I'd become like...a super prophet or something! 😆
Originally posted by Newjak
You see my main problem with the bible and hell has always been it just seems so unjust a punishment in some cases for a crime no one knows they committed.For instance Native Americans were living in America after Christ but had no idea he existed. Did they go to Hell simply because they had no idea there was a Christ? Am I to believe they should burn for eternity simply because of that. It's not a just punishment to me.
What about the guy who has done good in his life way more than they ever did bad, are you telling me a decent human being will get tortured forever simply because they did not believe in Christ's grace? That once again seems like an unjust punishment to me.
No, they will be judged according to the light and truth of righteousness that they had to live by. This is in the same Bible Bat Dude reads. Any Christian who tells you you are going to hell because you don't believe is explicitly wrong: it says so right in their own scriptures. However, if you were given a sincere chance to hear and adhere to the gospel of Christ (not just some man's church), then you will not get as much of a lenient judgement as say the heathens or ancient man.
Originally posted by Mindship
IMHO, "organized religion" is the watered-down version of what was revealed to men and women with evolved consciousness, and then passed on. Being watered down, the revelation experience becomes "lost in translation"; metaphors are taken literally, and humanity's wonderful propensity for us-them thinking turns what could have been much more beneficial into quests for superiority, whether at the gross organizational level or on a subtler personal level.Like all living things, human beings crave power: that which distances one from death terror. And when you have "God" on your side, well, it just doesn't get any better than that.
/sermon
I agree with this for the most part. I also think this revelation has happened multiple times and not just once. 🙂
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What I think people who debate with Bad-Dude don't get is that in his world God is inherently good. No matter how evil something God does is (by Bat-Dude's morality or yours) the action is still good simply because God did it. If Jesus stabbed a baby in front of him that would be fine, purely because Jesus did it.
It is called "Mysterious ways"...which I find to be a bullshit argument. However, sometimes, that argument really does seem legit and we are just too ignorant to understand the bigger picture...not possessing omniscience n'all that.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Just read a Bible. It's not my opinion, it's what is written in there. I try to stay away from my opinion when it comes to issues like these. I couldn't care less about opinion, unless it's backed up by scripture.When I make a statement on religion, I try to always back it with scripture. Again, that's not my opinion, that's what the Bible says.
One of my personal heroes, Penn Jillette, is fond of saying that the best way to become an atheist is to read the holy texts of major religions. I've only read the Bible and scattered others (I'm fond of the Tao Te Ching), so I can't quite corroborate his claim with the same level of thoroughness he has achieved. But it always amused me.
Scripture is factually unfounded, written by scientifically illiterate, superstitous men thousands of years ago. It is self-contradicting in dozens of places, cruel in others, and frequently does not hold up to historical or scientific inquiry. All of this is verifiable from a number of unbiased, usually peer-reviewed sources, and is also quite evident with even a modicum of critical thinking.
Believe in it if you must. There are other valid conclusions to the question of divinity.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Great addition to the discussion, btw...
Oh, come now. I'm hell-bound with a bright red bow on my head. Would you expect any less?
I actually harbor the slight but nagging suspicion that you're some kind of troll. But I have to continually remind myself that A. people like you do exist, and B. you'd be trolling yourself harder than anyone else with all of your detailed replies.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
I'm not speaking for the majority. Unfortunately, Biblical Christianity has ALWAYS been a minority, even during the supposed "age of Christian dominance" in the world.The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm sure you've heard that saying before.
I never said that, and am actually pretty offended that you think I did. Re-read what I posted.
I said I DIDN'T want Lucien to end up in hell. I want God to show him the truth before it becomes too late for him. I want him to go to heaven, but he won't if he doesn't repent and believe Jesus is Lord.
Maybe my wording wasn't the best, but I wasn't saying I hope he goes to hell. In fact, if we go to the previous page in this thread, we can see that I said the following:
But I'm just a mean old hater, right?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What I think people who debate with Bad-Dude don't get is that in his world God is inherently good. No matter how evil something God does is (by Bat-Dude's morality or yours) the action is still good simply because God did it. If Jesus stabbed a baby in front of him that would be fine, purely because Jesus did it.
He must have been through some baaad things to cause him to lose his sanity like that. That's scary, if he can't trust his own morality and except things based on empirical understanding or even his own God-given moral compass over his Faith to one book that's so open to misinterpretation and not necessarily relevant or morally correct when one's own heart is taken as irrelevant next to some old 'text'.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
If you can dwell on loved ones that didn't get saved, that would cause pain and sorrow because you'd realize you'd never see them again. In heaven, God will spare you the sorrow and you'll be so happy to be with Him, it'll never occur to you anyway.
God will cause you not to care about the people you love? That doesn't really sound appealing...
Originally posted by DigiI do agree with the idea the more you read scripture the more you notice how broken it can be.
One of my personal heroes, Penn Jillette, is fond of saying that the best way to become an atheist is to read the holy texts of major religions. I've only read the Bible and scattered others (I'm fond of the Tao Te Ching), so I can't quite corroborate his claim with the same level of thoroughness he has achieved. But it always amused me.Scripture is factually unfounded, written by scientifically illiterate, superstitous men thousands of years ago. It is self-contradicting in dozens of places, cruel in others, and frequently does not hold up to historical or scientific inquiry. All of this is verifiable from a number of unbiased, usually peer-reviewed sources, and is also quite evident with even a modicum of critical thinking.
Believe in it if you must. There are other valid conclusions to the question of divinity.
Oh, come now. I'm hell-bound with a bright red bow on my head. Would you expect any less?
I actually harbor the slight but nagging suspicion that you're some kind of troll. But I have to continually remind myself that A. people like you do exist, and B. you'd be trolling yourself harder than anyone else with all of your detailed replies.
I still feel a certain amount of animosity coming from your posts though about the subject 😛
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosYeah I've known people like that they are crazy.
What I think people who debate with Bad-Dude don't get is that in his world God is inherently good. No matter how evil something God does is (by Bat-Dude's morality or yours) the action is still good simply because God did it. If Jesus stabbed a baby in front of him that would be fine, purely because Jesus did it.
Originally posted by Newjak
I do agree with the idea the more you read scripture the more you notice how broken it can be.I still feel a certain amount of animosity coming from your posts though about the subject 😛
I refrain from insulting - it's detrimental to debate and discussion - but I don't pull punches when I think something or someone is wrong, delusional, hateful, etc. It rubs many the wrong way, because they can't separate attacking an idea someone has from attacking the person as a whole. We can't be expected to be tolerant of things we find abhorrently wrong. I think it would be a greater disrespect to the person if we didn't say exactly what we thought.
You'll notice this in the aforementioned Jillette. He celebrates others' right to believe whatever they want and say whatever they want. He has an immense respect for those that will debate him and call him wrong to his face. Yet it doesn't stop him from calling those people wrong or even crazy. Calling others out on their bullsh*t constantly, and being willing to have his own bulsh*t called out, is one of the big reasons he's a hero of mine.
Originally posted by DigiMeh most ideas to me especially when we talk about religion seem more like tools. It's about the person wielding them and that person is what makes for good or evil or indifference if you will.
I refrain from insulting - it's detrimental to debate and discussion - but I don't pull punches when I think something or someone is wrong, delusional, hateful, etc. It rubs many the wrong way, because they can't separate attacking an idea someone has from attacking the person as a whole. We can't be expected to be tolerant of things we find abhorrently wrong. I think it would be a greater disrespect to the person if we didn't say exactly what we thought.You'll notice this in the aforementioned Jillette. He celebrates others' right to believe whatever they want and say whatever they want. He has an immense respect for those that will debate him and call him wrong to his face. Yet it doesn't stop him from calling those people wrong or even crazy.
So I'm guess I'm the exact opposite I can be very tolerant of ideas but I hate people who misuse them.
Originally posted by Digi
I actually harbor the slight but nagging suspicion that you're some kind of troll. But I have to continually remind myself that A. people like you do exist, and B. you'd be trolling yourself harder than anyone else with all of your detailed replies.
He's legit. His arguments are too specific for him to be a troll. His type of arguments I grew up hearing all the time, against Mormon beliefs, and it comes from lots and lots of studying...which no troll would genuinely invest that much time into.
I could also say I prayed about it and the Holy Ghost said he was sincere in his beliefs. 313
Originally posted by Oliver North
God will cause you not to care about the people you love? That doesn't really sound appealing...
If you no longer cared then it would be okay to you. However, I do not hold what he says to be accurate. In Mormon theology, every person is assigned to where they WANT to be. If you're evil, you would not want to be in God's presence. Supposedly, there is something different about being eternal beings as opposed to corporeal beings. Our subjective experience is much different in such an existence: being in front of a perfect being like God is so painful (unsure in which way) that we cannot bear it. It may have something to do with possessing a perfect knowledge of both righteousness and our unrepentant actions while in the flesh.
Originally posted by Digi
You'll notice this in the aforementioned Jillette. He celebrates others' right to believe whatever they want and say whatever they want. He has an immense respect for those that will debate him and call him wrong to his face. Yet it doesn't stop him from calling those people wrong or even crazy. Calling others out on their bullsh*t constantly, and being willing to have his own bulsh*t called out, is one of the big reasons he's a hero of mine.
It's why I love the utter living shit out of that guy. I think he's a major a**hole and is clearly wrong about his approach and ideas about some things, but he rocks my socks off.
Originally posted by Newjak
Meh most ideas to me especially when we talk about religion seem more like tools. It's about the person wielding them and that person is what makes for good or evil or indifference if you will.So I'm guess I'm the exact opposite I can be very tolerant of ideas but I hate people who misuse them.
Fair enough. But it's not the person's fault. We're all just products of our upbringing, genetics, environment, and education. Very, very few set out with the idea that they will do evil in the world with an idea or tool, as you put it. The most hateful evangelists think they're doing good. To us, Bat Dude sounds uninformed, condescending, and hateful, but to him he's doing God work. He's trying to make the world the better place, as he sees it. It's tough to stomach from the opposite perspective, but it's hard for me to say "No, don't do what you think is right and good. You're a terrible person." It is the idea that needs deconstructing, not the person, even if the person is off their rocker.
But then if you pull out the big guns tearing down an idea, mincing no words, you inevitably end up in personal insults sometimes. Comes with the territory, and I'm no saint in that department. But it's a goal to strive for.
Originally posted by dadudemon
He's legit. His arguments are too specific for him to be a troll. His type of arguments I grew up hearing all the time, against Mormon beliefs, and it comes from lots and lots of studying...which no troll would genuinely invest that much time into.I could also say I prayed about it and the Holy Ghost said he was sincere in his beliefs. 313
lol. You could.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It's why I love the utter living shit out of that guy. I think he's a major a**hole and is clearly wrong about his approach and ideas about some things, but he rocks my socks off.
He's got the best approach in the world. Let's take our gloves off, punch the **** out of our ideas, then laugh and have a beer. Metaphorically, of course. But still. Soooo few can actually follow through on that kind of philosophy. I certainly can't. We get too angry over stuff. But it's brilliant to watch.
Not to change topics, but I'm still shocked you haven't left Mormonism. There are problems, man. Like, overt racism is built into the holy text. I know most don't practice it anymore, but it literally says that darker skin is a stain put upon them by God (paraphrasing, but I'm sure you know what I'm referring to). How do you circumvent that in your mind to believe it's divinely inspired?
Originally posted by Digi
Not to change topics, but I'm still shocked you haven't left Mormonism. There are problems, man. Like, overt racism is built into the holy text. I know most don't practice it anymore, but it literally says that darker skin is a stain put upon them by God (paraphrasing, but I'm sure you know what I'm referring to). How do you circumvent that in your mind to believe it's divinely inspired?
The system we have in place accounts for stuff like that. The original translated text from Joseph Smith does not make it seem so clear as racist. It edited, later, to make it seem quite clearly a racism thing. The initial version/s make it seem like a countenance thing. There were, quite clearly, racist Mormons in leadership.
Another example of this clear leadership error stuff is the line in the preface to the book of Mormon about the Lammanites being the primary ancestors of the Native Americans. Well, there happens to be a story about why this was put in there: Bruce R. McKonkie, a very smart and very instrumental man in organizing a lot of gospel stuff for Mormons, acted on his own without counseling with the First Presidency or the other 11 apostles when he wrote that preface. The error was almost immediately found out AFTER it went to publication. It took almost 20 years to get that error removed from that edition and one of the reasons they held off so long in changing that edition of the Book of Mormon was due to how many other things were being debated and discussed for correction (they wanted to do the corrections all in 1 batch and the time period for editions seems to be once every 20-40 years...they are quite slow to make error corrections). Anyway, when Bruce R. McKonkie wrote that preface and it was published, it immediately caused an uproar by some members because the topic was highly debated within Mormon scholars at the time. It pissed quite a few people off and probably caused a few to leave the church.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is far from perfect. One thing that some more ignorant Mormons do not know or do not take the time to ask is, "From whence commeth these mistakes? Why are there even mistakes if the LDS Church is supposed to be the 'True' church?" The simple answer is, they are asking the wrong questions. It is not the "one true church" as is often stated. That is phrase is taken out of context by the Mormons who do not know what that means. In the context that those people are using it, it would be more correct to say, "The LDS Faith has the Truest Precepts and Theology as it pertains to God and His Laws." But what the original meaning of that phrase means is, "The LDS Faith is the only faith on this earth that has the Holy Priesthood to officiate and operate under God." That is what is meant by "True Church", not the accuracy thing.
So, in that regard, when people ask me about the clear problems and errors within the church and the clear sins that were committed by the leaders throughout the years, it is simple to answer/address: they are humans and NONE of them were perfect. Not even Joseph Smith was perfect and he stated multiple times that he wasn't perfect (some of his sermons covered how much more he had to grow as a person and where he went wrong).
To make it more clear, there have only been 3 or 4 official Church Doctrine confirmations and this is the key way in which the LDS Faith establishes the belief structure and this is ALWAYS done by a unanimous vote by both the first presidency and the Twelve Apostles:
Here they are:
1. The Confirmation and Official Organization of the Church.
2. The Confirmation and Official Declaration of the Scriptures we would use for our gospel doctrine (it was the original and very flawed Book of Mormon).
3. The Official Declaration that all worthy males could hold the Priesthood (banning the racist discrimination against those of Sub-Saharan African decent).
4. The Official Confirmation regarding the "The Family Proclamation to the World."
That's it. All other actions regarding doctrine are of the individual and not the official way by which doctrine is established or declared. So if a General Authority, Apostle, or even Prophet say something that is incorrect, that is the fault and/or sin of the individual and not "The Brethren" as it is said. The reason this system was setup as it is is due to man being flawed and full of mistakes so that when something official had to come about, it had to be a unanimous decision by "The Brethren." By the way, they come to this decision by prayer, as individuals. They are not allowed to argue about the decision as that is consider sacrilegious. If it is not unanimous, the First Presidency will meet with the individual, privately, in the temple, to discuss why that person disagrees. It has never gotten to that point, however. The closest it got was when President W. Kimball considered the notion of giving all worthy men the priesthood. He said he prayed about it 3 times and on 3 separate occasions and only upon the third time did God tell him the Mormon church was "ready". Also, it is believed, but not officially declared, that the reason that discrimination was allowed to happen was due to the unworthiness of the MEMBERS themselves to experience a more liberal social perspective. It had nothing to do with them being part of the Seed of Cain: that was a Mormon Myth that has long since been debunked. Basically, as was described by The Brethren, we the members were unworthy to live a higher law because we were too racist and intolerant and we had to grow as a faith, socially, before we could be worthy enough to get that privilege. Similar to Moses not being able to live in the Promised land because he was not worthy of it. It is considered living a "Higher Law". Also, and here is another issue with that, thousands upon thousands of "black" men STILL held the Priesthood, regardless of the unofficial rule about blacks not being able to hold the Priesthood. Go figure? Let me emphasize that it was "Unofficial". The Brethren never met, prayed, and came to a unanimous decision about the Priesthood excluding African Americans. It is not found in our official doctrine (see my #2), anywhere.
But, yeah, the biggest problem I ever had with Mormonism was the racism. That always made me the most frustrated and shook my faith at one time when I was a wee laddie.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What I think people who debate with Bad-Dude don't get is that in his world God is inherently good. No matter how evil something God does is (by Bat-Dude's morality or yours) the action is still good simply because God did it. If Jesus stabbed a baby in front of him that would be fine, purely because Jesus did it.
Q: Why would Jesus stab a baby?
A: He wouldn't. These were Jesus' own words:
"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." (Luke 17:2)
Q: What has God done that is evil?
A: "...what evil hath he done?" (Luke 23:22) "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate." (Proverbs 8:13)
Nothing.
He must have been through some baaad things to cause him to lose his sanity like that. That's scary, if he can't trust his own morality and except things based on empirical understanding or even his own God-given moral compass over his Faith to one book that's so open to misinterpretation and not necessarily relevant or morally correct when one's own heart is taken as irrelevant next to some old 'text'.
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
I don't base my life on my opinion... Again, if my opinion conflicts with the Word of God, my opinion, no matter how heart-felt, is wrong.
Oh, and thanks for the kind words, btw...
God will cause you not to care about the people you love? That doesn't really sound appealing...
God isn't gonna make you apathetic to someone's suffering. It's not like, "Oh, my mom's down there. Oh well. I'm up here now, who cares!" It'll be like you have amnesia regarding that particular person. I know that my grandmother, whom I loved dearly, was not saved when she died. It hurts me incredibly that she won't be in heaven with me, and that I won't remember her when I get there (especially because I tried so hard to witness to her. I don't want my family, or anyone for that matter, to be in hell). But that will not worry me then. It only worries me now, because sorrow and crying and pain and tears have not passed away.
It's not an easy thing to explain. The Bible says that "we see through a glass, darkly" (1 Corinthians 13:12) so we can't claim to have EVERYTHING figured out.
Hell does not exist as you believe it. That is a newer concept injected into the word. You should know this if you study the history of the bible. Not even the Jews believed in hell. They called it Shoele which is basically the "spirit world" where spirits await their final judgement.
Funny, because I could have sworn that the rich man was in TORMENTS in HELL right after he died, according to Luke 16:23.
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
The rich man even asked if he could warn his relatives so that they don't END UP LIKE HE DID.
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:17)
"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (Psalm 16:10)
"Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them." (Psalm 55:15)
"Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell." (Proverbs 5:5)
"Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death." (Proverbs 7:27)
"But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell." (Proverbs 9:18)
"The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath." (Proverbs 15:24)
"Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:14)
(This passage is in reference to spanking a child when they do wrong, not in reference to physical abuse. If you do not correct a child in error, they will continue to live in error. Lack of discipline is one of many reasons why our children act the way they do now. The previous verse says, "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."😉
"It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" (Job 11:8)
"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6)
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." (Deuteronomy 32:22)
This is the definition of the Hebrew word that is translated "hell" in the OT:
Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1) place of no return
2) without praise of God
3) wicked sent there for punishment
4) righteous not abandoned to it
5) of the place of exile (fig)
6) of extreme degradation in sin
Combine that with the following verses in the NT regarding hell:
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2 Peter 2:4)
If that isn't hell, I don't know what is...
Lord Lucien will not go to hell unless he wants to go there...then it is technically not hell, at all. Remember, as the scriptures indicate, you will chose in the Spirit World, for sure, before final judgement.
Scripture?
Though I will agree with you on this: God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves.
Also, who is to say Lord Lucien would not forsake his current faith system if those miracles were performed in front of him and the spirit testified to his soul of the righteousness and correctness of those miracles? I know for sure that I would have absolute no faith issues if I got to experience those miracles and that testament directly from the Holy Ghost. If I got to experience that...I'd become like...a super prophet or something!
You wouldn't have faith issues because it wouldn't be faith. If you see miracles, you believe what you see. Little to no faith required.
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29)
We also need to be VERY careful of signs and wonders, because they lie. Satan can perform signs and wonders, too.
"A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed." (Matthew 16:4)
"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect." (Mark 13:22)
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:24)
Originally posted by Bat Dude
God isn't gonna make you apathetic to someone's suffering. It's not like, "Oh, my mom's down there. Oh well. I'm up here now, who cares!" It'll be like you have amnesia regarding that particular person. I know that my grandmother, whom I loved dearly, was not saved when she died. It hurts me incredibly that she won't be in heaven with me, and that I won't remember her when I get there (especially because I tried so hard to witness to her. I don't want my family, or anyone for that matter, to be in hell). But that will not worry me then. It only worries me now, because sorrow and crying and pain and tears have not passed away.It's not an easy thing to explain. The Bible says that "we see through a glass, darkly" (1 Corinthians 13:12) so we can't claim to have EVERYTHING figured out.
I'm actually speechless...
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Funny, because I could have sworn that the rich man was in TORMENTS in HELL right after he died, according to Luke 16:23."And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
The rich man even asked if he could warn his relatives so that they don't END UP LIKE HE DID.
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:17)
"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (Psalm 16:10)
"Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them." (Psalm 55:15)
"Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell." (Proverbs 5:5)
"Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death." (Proverbs 7:27)
"But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell." (Proverbs 9:18)
"The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath." (Proverbs 15:24)
"Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:14)
(This passage is in reference to spanking a child when they do wrong, not in reference to physical abuse. If you do not correct a child in error, they will continue to live in error. Lack of discipline is one of many reasons why our children act the way they do now. The previous verse says, "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."😉"It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" (Job 11:8)
"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6)
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." (Deuteronomy 32:22)
This is the definition of the Hebrew word that is translated "hell" in the OT:
Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1) place of no return
2) without praise of God
3) wicked sent there for punishment
4) righteous not abandoned to it
5) of the place of exile (fig)
6) of extreme degradation in sinCombine that with the following verses in the NT regarding hell:
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2 Peter 2:4)
If that isn't hell, I don't know what is...
So you didn't know that "Hell" is a newer concept introduced later into scripture? You should study the historical and political origins of the bible.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Scripture?
It's in the same post you quoted.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Though I will agree with you on this: God doesn't send anyone to hell, they send themselves.
Indeed.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
You wouldn't have faith issues because it wouldn't be faith. If you see miracles, you believe what you see. Little to no faith required.
Wrong and I clearly gave a scripture that shows you're wrong. Faith is still required, but not nearly as much.
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Q: Why would Jesus stab a baby?A: He wouldn't. These were Jesus' own words:
"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." (Luke 17:2)
If you met a man who you knew in your heart was Jesus and he told you to kill a child would you do it? If Jesus killed a child in front of you for no reason would you say he had done something evil?
I suspect, however, that you cannot even imagine these things. It reminds me of 1984 (which is a comparison I generally hate, for the record). This was in one of Orwell's appendixes.
It would have been possible, for example, to say Big Brother is ungood. But this statement, which to an orthodox ear merely conveyed a self-evident absurdity, could not have been sustained by reasoned argument, because the necessary words were not available. Ideas inimical to Ingsoc could only be entertained in a vague wordless form, and could only be named in very broad terms which lumped together and condemned whole groups of heresies without defining them in doing so. One could, in fact, only use Newspeak for unorthodox purposes by illegitimately translating some of the words back into Oldspeak. For example, All mans are equal was a possible Newspeak sentence, but only in the same sense in which All men are red-haired is a possible Oldspeak sentence.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If you met a man who you knew in your heart was Jesus and he told you to kill a child would you do it? If Jesus killed a child in front of you for no reason would you say he had done something evil?
If I met a man that I knew in my heart was Jesus? It would have to line up with scripture. Jesus will not return until the second coming at the battle of Armageddon. So anyone that my heart tells me is Jesus before that day comes, is a false Christ. And remember, as I stated previously, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
And besides, Jesus would not kill an innocent child, anyway, so your hypothetical is moot. Remember His direct quote from before?
There is one time in the entire Bible that God commanded an innocent child by slain. God once told Abraham to kill his son, Isaac. Abraham was going to do it (reluctantly), but God stopped him. God didn't really want Abraham to kill his son. Basically, it was a test of faith. Would you listen to God no matter what?
God wants obedience and faith from us, but He is not cruel or wicked. An innocent child is obviously not going to receive God's wrath, so again, your hypothetical is moot.