Thor vs Sentry (See details)

Originally posted by tkitna
Who's supporting Sentry for being original? I realize he's a Superman clone or intended to be one. Heck, when he was around people kept crying that Marvel didnt need a Superman. Thats not it at all. What I was saying is that I think its sad that Marvels main tough guy is a direct copy from norse mythology, and yes, anybody could have thought that up. Like I said, its so original that every comic company has used a Thor, its just they dont push him. I dont care how he's used, the fact remains that he is nothing more then the Thor in norse mythology. He has the same powers, the same father, the same brother in Loki, the same asgard. It's not hard, but your trying to make him into something more for some reason. Superman was and is a more original character. How can't he be?

facepalm

Originally posted by tkitna
Who's supporting Sentry for being original? I realize he's a Superman clone or intended to be one. Heck, when he was around people kept crying that Marvel didnt need a Superman. Thats not it at all. What I was saying is that I think its sad that Marvels main tough guy is a direct copy from norse mythology, and yes, anybody could have thought that up. Like I said, its so original that every comic company has used a Thor, its just they dont push him. I dont care how he's used, the fact remains that he is nothing more then the Thor in norse mythology. He has the same powers, the same father, the same brother in Loki, the same asgard. It's not hard, but your trying to make him into something more for some reason. Superman was and is a more original character. How can't he be?

He's not a "direct" copy from Norse Mythology. There's an untold staggering amounts of differences between the two and really, you're selling Stan Lee and Jack Kirby horribly short if you legitimately think that anyone could do what they did for the character.

I mean...it's so obvious that Marvel Thor is infinitely more fleshed out as a character than Norse Myth. Consider all the various origins Thor has had that differ wildly from Norse Myth in addition to the Asgard from Marvel to say nothing of guys like Mangog, the Destroyer, Beta Ray Bill, the Warriors Three, and all the other original aspects Marvel's Thor has introduced. Even the other characters based from myth are staggering different than their counterparts. I shouldn't even have to be explaining this. Plus, just looking at the actual stories that were told tells us that Marvel's Thor is clearly an original concept as a character, albeit one based on mythology.

For crying out loud, Thor's origin involved aliens from Saturn. 😐

As far as Superman goes, the guy was inspired by religious figures in the form of Jesus and Moses in addition to characters from fictional publications. Still doesn't mean the final project isn't original.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
He's not a "direct" copy from Norse Mythology. There's an untold staggering amounts of differences between the two and really, you're selling Stan Lee and Jack Kirby horribly short if you legitimately think that anyone could do what they did for the character.

I mean...it's so obvious that Marvel Thor is infinitely more fleshed out as a character than Norse Myth. Consider all the various origins Thor has had that differ wildly from Norse Myth in addition to the Asgard from Marvel to say nothing of guys like Mangog, the Destroyer, Beta Ray Bill, the Warriors Three, and all the other original aspects Marvel's Thor has introduced. Even the other characters based from myth are staggering different than their counterparts. I shouldn't even have to be explaining this. Plus, just looking at the actual stories that were told tells us that Marvel's Thor is clearly an original concept as a character, albeit one based on mythology.

For crying out loud, Thor's origin involved aliens from Saturn. 😐

As far as Superman goes, the guy was inspired by religious figures in the form of Jesus and Moses in addition to characters from fictional publications. Still doesn't mean the final project isn't original.

Originally posted by 753
jesus and moses?

Yeah, there's a lot of religious allegory for Superman. "El" means "God" in Hebrew, Kal was sent to Earth and soon becomes a messianic savior figure, his actual trip to Earth has many parallels with Moses being sent down in the river and living among another group of people but not being one of them, etc.

Besides there's others in Superman's tier at Marvel like the Silver Surfer. But it's not Marvel's fault that Thor just worked out so well as Marvel Earth's best Brick.

Could that be because Marvel Thor was more Original than tktina gives him credit for?

He is more original than tktina is giving him credit for. Lee and Kirby basically blew open the doors for high stakes cosmic/fantasy/science fiction with Thor. As far as Marvel goes, I can't think of another character who was able to effortlessly walk between those genres at the drop of a hat and also have a very human element involved (Donald Blake and his physical shortcomings).

Hell, Marvel's Thor took the original Norse myth of Thor and made it far better.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Hell, Marvel's Thor took the original Norse myth of Thor and made it far better.

Don`t know about that. Has marvel Thor screwed any giant ladies yet?

Originally posted by Mshinu
Don`t know about that. Has marvel Thor screwed any giant ladies yet?

Tbh, I'm pretty sure it's been implied.

Being Norwegian I still prefer the orininal myths, but Marvel`s take is good (and very different). Different mediums and blonde prettyboy cleanshaven Thor certainly can stand on his own legs.

With Marvel, you're basically getting a good deal of the original myths (depending on the writer and which style/origin they want to work with) plus traditional superhero stuff as well as high end cosmic/sci-fi story telling and old school sword and sorcery.

I don't see how anyone can honestly think Marvel's Thor isn't an original character in his own right as a whole, let alone that it would be easy for someone to do what Lee and Kirby did.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't see how anyone can honestly think Marvel's Thor isn't an original character in his own right as a whole, let alone that it would be easy for someone to do what Lee and Kirby did.

Same can be said of the comic book version of Hercules used in both Marvel and DC. Or pretty much any mythology-inspired characters in comics like Wonder Woman, and (arguably) Superman.

Hell, even Galactus was originally intended to be the Zeus-lite of the Marvel Cosmos(at least according to Stan Lee's intent for the character).

even as a world devourer galactus can be said to be derived from shiva or kali. there are precedents to everything in comics.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The fact that he's literally based on the Thor of myth? It's a different thing that his character has evolved and developed a mythos of its own over the decades since its inception in comics.

Same can be said of the comic book version of Hercules used in both Marvel and DC. Or pretty much any mythology-inspired characters in comics like Wonder Woman, and (arguably) Superman.

Hell, even Galactus was originally intended to be the Zeus-lite of the Marvel Cosmos(at least according to Stan Lee's intent for the character).

Even the very origin of the character was radically different than what Norse Myth portrays. A doctor with a lame leg goes to Norway and stumbles upon a magical walking stick that lets him fight off aliens is pretty bizarre. Just look at the first handful of issues from Journey into Mystery. In terms of a character, Thor was already pretty original before Lee and Kirby passed on the writing and artistic duties of the character let alone in the current age where he has decades worth of material to draw upon.

To that end, I don't see how Thor is any less original as, at least to me, he stands on his own from his mythological counterpart very quickly after reading the first few issues.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Besides there's others in Superman's tier at Marvel like the Silver Surfer.

There's also the simplicity of the Silver Surfer's appearance (I think Kirby was going for minimal work here), unique back then. He didn't wear multicolored spandex or outer-underwear like everyone else (briefs, then 'galactic glaze' appeared in later renditions).

There really was no direct superhero precedent, afaik. Metaphorically, Surfer's like a fallen angel, but that's not the same kind of relationship as say between Sentry and Superman, or Marvel Thor and Norse myth Thor. No wonder Stan Lee's first impression of the Surfer was a nut on a flying surfboard.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Even the very origin of the character was radically different than what Norse Myth portrays. A doctor with a lame leg goes to Norway and stumbles upon a magical walking stick that lets him fight off aliens is pretty bizarre. Just look at the first handful of issues from Journey into Mystery. In terms of a character, Thor was already pretty original before Lee and Kirby passed on the writing and artistic duties of the character let alone in the current age where he has decades worth of material to draw upon.

To that end, I don't see how Thor is any less original as, at least to me, he stands on his own from his mythological counterpart very quickly after reading the first few issues.

There are a great deal of story arcs(the most recent being Fraction's Serpent storyline) that borrow liberally from Norse mythology. In fact some key events or scenes are just mere paraphrasings of what has already been written in Old Norse texts.

To that ed, Thor isn't an original character at all and his claim to originality is even weaker than that of characters like Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman etc. Tbh, the only character who's truly original imo is Spider-Man, and even with him there is a shadow of doubt.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
That origin has been phucked around with enough times in the last decade or so to the point that Thor being a hero of myth is a more acceptable point of view than a mortal doctor gaining the magical powers of a god with a walking stick.

There are a great deal of story arcs(the most recent being Fraction's Serpent storyline) that borrow liberally from Norse mythology. In fact some key events or scenes are just mere paraphrasings of what has already been written in Old Norse texts.

To that ed, Thor isn't an original character at all and his claim to originality is even weaker than that of characters like Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman etc. Tbh, the only character who's truly original imo is Spider-Man, and even with him there is a shadow of doubt.

Thor's origin in terms of his growing up becoming worthy of Mjolnir and being banished to Earth to live among mortals as one of them (albeit with a lame leg) is his definitive origin for Marvel and has been for since Lee's day. The Blake persona has come and gone, but when Marvel reprints Thor's origin (as they did with First Thunder and Avengers Origins: Thor, the whole Donald Blake thing is still referenced). In fact, it's a crucial part of his character. Asgardian cosmology and the origins of people like Odin and Bor have shifted, but Thor's origin is pretty much the same as it always has been.

And there's a great deal of arcs that deal with original concepts such as the Destroyer, Mangog, Celestials, Beta Ray Bill, and all the Avengers crap he deals with. He certain is based off of Norse Thor but really, he completely stands on his own and has, imo, since the 60's-70's.

He's based off of Norse myth, no one's denying that. But he's been extremely fleshed out and given enough twists and developments to show that he's become his own thing and has been for decades now. And the idea that any Joe Schmoe could pull that off in either DC or Image or another company is ridiculous, imho.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor's origin in terms of his growing up becoming worthy of Mjolnir and being banished to Earth to live among mortals as one of them (albeit with a lame leg) is his definitive origin for Marvel and has been for since Lee's day. The Blake persona has come and gone, but when Marvel reprints Thor's origin (as they did with First Thunder and Avengers Origins: Thor, the whole Donald Blake thing is still referenced). In fact, it's a crucial part of his character. Asgardian cosmology and the origins of people like Odin and Bor have shifted, but Thor's origin is pretty much the same as it always has been.

And there's a great deal of arcs that deal with original concepts such as the Destroyer, Mangog, Celestials, Beta Ray Bill, and all the Avengers crap he deals with. He certain is based off of Norse Thor but really, he completely stands on his own and has, imo, since the 60's-70's.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

He's based off of Norse myth, no one's denying that. But he's been extremely fleshed out and given enough twists and developments to show that he's become his own thing and has been for decades now. And the idea that any Joe Schmoe could pull that off in either DC or Image or another company is ridiculous, imho.

As far as DC goes: they do have a mythology based mainstream character: Wonder Woman. Hell, I'd even go so far as to include Superman in that category based on how Samson and Hercules were used as inspirations for the character. Same points I made more than a post ago.

Originally posted by tkitna
Who's supporting Sentry for being original? I realize he's a Superman clone or intended to be one. Heck, when he was around people kept crying that Marvel didnt need a Superman. Thats not it at all. What I was saying is that I think its sad that Marvels main tough guy is a direct copy from norse mythology, and yes, anybody could have thought that up. Like I said, its so original that every comic company has used a Thor, its just they dont push him. I dont care how he's used, the fact remains that he is nothing more then the Thor in norse mythology. He has the same powers, the same father, the same brother in Loki, the same asgard. It's not hard, but your trying to make him into something more for some reason. Superman was and is a more original character. How can't he be?

Originally posted by tkitna
I think its sad that a blatant, plagiarized character like Thor is supposed to be Marvels flagship character superman. I mean, Thor is so original that every comic company has one. Seriously, how hard did Stan Lee work on this one? What did it take, like 5 minutes on the crapper? "Hey, i'll take Thor from norse mythology and make him a powerful superhero. Well thats done". Anyways, Thor fails as being Marvels Superman. He's too dependent on the Hammer and outside forces such as magic. He's also too full of himself half the time. Thats why I thought they finally had something with Bob, but ti seemed people forgot to write when they had to handle him. That and with fans crying all the time, because he was more powerful then their favorite characters, no wonder it was a recipe for disaster.

Originally posted by Mindship
Since you mentioned him, the Surfer always struck me as a fairly original concept. From what I understand, Kirby was inspired by the Beach Boys surfing culture popular at the time, and, not wanting to draw spaceships. This was when other characters flew under their own power or with some sort of obvious craft.

There's also the simplicity of the Silver Surfer's appearance (I think Kirby was going for minimal work here), unique back then. He didn't wear multicolored spandex or outer-underwear like everyone else (briefs, then 'galactic glaze' appeared in later renditions).

There really was no direct superhero precedent, afaik. Metaphorically, Surfer's like a fallen angel, but that's not the same kind of relationship as say between Sentry and Superman, or Marvel Thor and Norse myth Thor. No wonder Stan Lee's first impression of the Surfer was a nut on a flying surfboard.

Originally posted by 753
loki isnt thor's brother in mythology. he is odin's blood oath brother though.

Sorry. I'm not that well versed in Norse Mythology. I was just eluding to the point that he exists in both scenarios, Thanks.