Superman and Silver Surfer vs Thor and Loki

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Even if Superman moves that fast from the get go, he won't be able to knock out either guy in time before Loki goes "lol" and makes them invisible/intangible and removes all sound from the battlefield, effectively making Supeman's senses null and void. At that point, one of Superman's greatest assets in the form of his super senses is pretty much shot to hell.

Given respective feats, personalities, and the like, Loki is more likely to become "untouchable" than Superman is.

Originally posted by Starscream M
superman can still sense them through their movement vibrations

Superman isn't going to sense them when Odin and Mephisto can't in Asgard and Hell where they're basically omnipotent and clairvoyent to a heightened degree. Sure as hell not when Loki can screw with his senses much like he did with Heimdall's. At best, he might know they are there. That's about it.

When did this become CIS and CIP off?

Originally posted by carver9
When did this become CIS and CIP off?

It's not. They're still (supposed to) fighting in character.

My point is that given their respective histories and personalities, it's more likely Loki attempts to become untouchable than Superman, who's going to try and tank shit.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You piqued my curiosity. How do you know only Surfer was releasing energy?

Yea, we aren't getting anywhere here.

Yes, I am implying a level of power behind it and I have no idea why Loki proving to be superior to Hulk/Surfer somehow diminishes my point. I have absolutely no problem with Loki shitting on those two.

And of course it's relevant. What the hell is wrong with you? Loki isn't going to be testing Surfer here, he isn't going to try and fight him like f*cking Thor. He's going to fight Surfer like he does at his most formidable, like a sorcerer/magician, and his magic proving to be far superior to that Surfer is relevant. Loki didn't shape-shift, amp his strength or summon weapons, all which significantly augment his physical capabilities alone; to the point he can practically match and has even allowed him to get the advantage over Thor, much less Surfer.

Maybe if he decides to lock arms and fight like Thor would, then yea, he should lose more often then not. Otherwise Surfer takes maybe 4-6/10 against Loki.

Because Loki isn't superior to Surfer with Hulk's added powers. I know you have no problem with it, but it's so blatantly stupid that it's not worth the debate.

Him helping Surfer bypass a shield by teleporting to Asgard is relevant to forum fight in what way? In what way sir? Unless you're talking about Durok as well, which you in no way described any of Loki's fighting styles to be relevant to powering someone up.

Funny thing is, Loki's like best feat had him blasting, flying around, and creating duplicates against Surtur. His previously mentioned fight against Seth had him only blasting at Seth. Not saying he hasn't shape shifted into tampons, or summoned wooden swords before in battle, but it's not like he fought in a lowered form against Surfer.

With your view of how Loki should fight, it makes me interested in how you see Surfer fighting.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It's not. They're still (supposed to) fighting in character.

My point is that given their respective histories and personalities, it's more likely Loki attempts to become untouchable than Superman, who's going to try and tank shit.

I know... you didn't even start this debating fashion in this thread...if anything, you are arguing against it. This thread is with "everyone in character" so again, I don't understand why people are arguing in the CIP and CIS off fashion. Looking at on panel showings and characters/personalities, nothing that has been said in this thread will happen.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
That's only relevant if they get a bit of time to prep themselves just before the 'gun' that signals the start of the match goes off. The time it takes for them to think of doing their best, is much slower than what Superman needs to think about doing anything at his best.

Superman can operate as if a mere fraction of a nanosecond feels like entire minutes to him. This means a second is going to feel like decades or even centuries to him when he's in this top speed mode.

Fast enough to switch himself out for an illusion and no one noticed:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/LokivsThorCorps02.jpg

Etc

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
For starters, one of Loki's hands wasn't even close to Surfer.

Because Loki isn't superior to Surfer with Hulk's added powers. I know you have no problem with it, but it's so blatantly stupid that it's not worth the debate.

Him helping Surfer bypass a shield by teleporting to Asgard is relevant to forum fight in what way? In what way sir? Unless you're talking about Durok as well, which you in no way described any of Loki's fighting styles to be relevant to powering someone up.

Funny thing is, Loki's like best feat had him blasting, flying around, and creating duplicates against Surtur. His previously mentioned fight against Seth had him only blasting at Seth. Not saying he hasn't shape shifted into tampons, or summoned wooden swords before in battle, but it's not like he fought in a lowered form against Surfer.

With your view of how Loki should fight, it makes me interested in how you see Surfer fighting.

What? I don't even understand what you're getting at here. Their hands are locked together and that indistinguishable energy is radiating. How in the hell are you coming to these conclusions?

Well, apparently he is. Here that folks? Loki > Surfer and Hulk! I don't know why Loki having an uber feat in itself suggests that it can't possibly be what it appears to be. What nonsense.

So one can simple teleport Surfer through Galactus' barrier? Also, Loki very specifically said that it could not withstand a God, that implies power, not craftiness.

It's still more in line with how I'd view him fighting than punching Surfer in the face and getting into a mercy contest with him (And IIRC they were using sorcery to battle each other, Seth and Loki I mean). I'm not saying he was treating Surfer as a 2 year old, but he wasn't at his best. Then again I don't think he was ever intending to beat Surfer either but we have to agree to disagree there. I will admit that there plenty of a portrayal that treats him as a blaster than a more mystic type, it's writers preference but in either portrayal he's always incredibly potent.

Pretty much like they usually do. Surfer vs. Loki would include a lot of flying around and blasting, with the occasional Power Cosmic random power being negated with an incantation.

Originally posted by carver9
I know... you didn't even start this debating fashion in this thread...if anything, you are arguing against it. This thread is with "everyone in character" so again, I don't understand why people are arguing in the CIP and CIS off fashion. Looking at on panel showings and characters/personalities, nothing that has been said in this thread will happen.

Superman fanboys almost always resort to CIS/PIS(IE CBR mode) in their arguments.

He's kind of fast.

lol @ Loki > Surfer.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Stats/LokiSpeed02Avengers1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Stats/LokiSpeed01aAvengers1.jpg

Fast enough to switch himself out for an illusion and no one noticed:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Loki%20Fights/LokivsThorCorps02.jpg

Etc

The radiowaves thing at a brief glance would seem to be a good speed feat, but, at the same time, he's not beating it to a target or anything.

Signals are already being sent out, while he's talking, the signals that are there he then diverts towards whatever frequency Donald Blake is listening to.

Not really sure what to make of the second thing, its not quantifiable.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What? I don't even understand what you're getting at here. Their hands are locked together and that indistinguishable energy is radiating. How in the hell are you coming to these conclusions?

Well, apparently he is. Here that folks? Loki > Surfer and Hulk! I don't know why Loki having an uber feat in itself suggests that it can't possibly be what it appears to be. What nonsense.

So one can simple teleport Surfer through Galactus' barrier? Also, Loki very specifically said that it could not withstand a God, that implies power, not craftiness.

It's still more in line with how I'd view him fighting than punching Surfer in the face and getting into a mercy contest with him. I'm not saying he was treating Surfer as a 2 year old, but he wasn't at his best either. Then again I don't think he was ever intending to beat Surfer either but we have to agree to disagree there. I will admit that there plenty of a portrayal that treats him as a blaster than a more mystic type, it's writers preference but in either portrayal he's always incredibly potent.

Pretty much like they usually do. Surfer vs. Loki would include a lot of flying around and blasting, with the occasional Power Cosmic random power being negated with an incantation.

No he isn't, and never has been.
I'm not saying it isn't a good feat, it's just not a power feat relevant to battle. Unless you can tell me how Loki teleporting Surfer to Asgard when a barrier tied to Surfer's energy was up is a viable strategy in battle. Is he going to force Surfer through some barriers that were put up by Galactus?

I mean, it a good breaching, or sidestepping feat relevant to say breaching a dimension or something, but I can't see how it's relevant to his power.

Apparently Loki can.
Loki also implied he could just walk through any barrier Galactus ever threw up. 😬

So, can we stop acting like Loki fought so out of line and therefore must have been holding back? I could see if he was just trying to get into a h2h fight with Surfer, but really.

How different from the comic.

Originally posted by Tar-Antado
lol @ Loki > Surfer.

What's so funny about Loki being above Surfer? He's Loki, not some dime story magician. That being said, I'm not sure who'd win between Loki and Surfer.

Norrin's showing against Karnilla was pretty crazy so that definitely helps his resume but then again in that story Loki was way above Herald level.

I might give Surfer 6/10 out of name recognition but anyone giving Loki 6/10 is hardly unreasonable.

Personally, if Loki (classic/non kid version) and Surfer were to fight today, I could see them stalemating or Surfer barely edging him out. Both of them got crazy feats since Silver Surfer #4. Anyone thinking Surfer easily beats him (or Thor) is kidding themselves.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The radiowaves thing at a brief glance would seem to be a good speed feat, but, at the same time, he's not beating it to a target or anything.

Signals are already being sent out, while he's talking, the signals that are there he then diverts towards whatever frequency Donald Blake is listening to.

Not really sure what to make of the second thing, its not quantifiable.

Not a lot is in comics. But he somehow switched out himself with an illusion in the time it took for Beta to throw his hammer. That's pretty nifty either way you look at it.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
http://s388.photobucket.com/user/OneDumbG0/media/Loki%20Fights/LokivsSilverSurfer04.jpg.html
That ain't locked together yo.

No he isn't, and never has been.
I'm not saying it isn't a good feat, it's just not a power feat relevant to battle. Unless you can tell me how Loki teleporting Surfer to Asgard when a barrier tied to Surfer's energy was up is a viable strategy in battle. Is he going to force Surfer through some barriers that were put up by Galactus?

I mean, it a good breaching, or sidestepping feat relevant to say breaching a dimension or something, but I can't see how it's relevant to his power.

Apparently Loki can.
Loki also implied he could just walk through any barrier Galactus ever threw up. 😬

So, can we stop acting like Loki fought so out of line and therefore must have been holding back? I could see if he was just trying to get into a h2h fight with Surfer, but really.

How different from the comic.

Then what are their hands doing? And how can you tell it's coming from Surfer? It's radiating from both of them.

It's been a while since I read the comic, but based on what I remember of the Hulk/Surfer comic you referenced, getting Surfer through the barrier so easily definitely implies a high end level of power.

Well, he did sneak into Galactus' ship. I guess Galactus better hope Loki never tries to rape him, not barrier is going to be able to keep him out of that poop hole.

I don't think Loki wasn't at his best only because he fought Surfer like Thor, have I not made that clear? Alright bro, agree to disagree.

My main point of contention was you saying Loki lost, I don't believe that to be the case. I also don't think Loki's chances are horrible against Surfer either, that's bullshit imo.

I think the main point we can all agree on is this:

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Also, phuck Wolverine.

It's something Superman, Thor, and Surfer fans can all come together for.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
He stopped the radio waves from reaching the F4 building and diverted them to Donald Blake's talky machine while they were already in motion.

Not a lot is in comics. But he somehow switched out himself with an illusion in the time it took for Beta to throw his hammer. That's pretty nifty either way you look at it.

True. The question now is how far the F4 building was away from the signal?

It would take light a little under 4 microseconds to travel 1 km, less than 2/3 of a mile, for example.

Thor himself already has at least one microsecond feat, so this seems it would fit in well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If we're just talking about a pure punch up then yeah the likes of Superman could speed blitz Thor.

But when you consider the versatility Thor and Loki have available to them added to the reflexes they have, then it won't be that easy. Not at all.

Fact is Surfer has never been too fast for Thor. Different versions of Gladiator have been shown using their super speed on different versions of Thor and the most it ever came to is getting a few more hits in.

So yes Superspeed is a big asset Superman/Surfer has over Thor, but it's not some guaranteed win. Just like Thor's superior power output isn't a guranteed win over Superman/Surfer.

Dig deeper.
Why don't characters like Superman use their speed often in big matchups?
Is it because the writer is making the character not use their speed to show a good fight?

We all know how fast Superman is, we all know how fast Surfer is, we all know how fast Hulk is, we all know how fast spidey is, etc.

If spidey fought Hulk in a comic then Parker would be seen as a lot faster than Hulk. But if Superman or Surfer fought Hulk then it would be seen as they are peers to Hulk in speed (for the most part). Yet we all know Superman and Surfer are astronomically faster than spidey.