Originally posted by Branlor Swift
A different origin doesn't make for different powers, and no one's power worked differently there.
And if the shield was changed to work for just normal cellular disruption, it would have accomplished the same thing.Thor still had a hammer, he still shot lightning. And his ties were to Egyptian Gods since his name was Horus.
Most of them had different origins, they were still 616 characters that were being reality manipulated. It's the equivalent of say Tiamut making Thor a Mexican God who uses a wrench.
So that fact that he was part of the Mutant Liberation Front, and on the cover of the comic he is in the middle on says, "Mutant Rebellion", and that the force field is called, "Mutant Detection Field", doesn't say he was a mutant to you? You're grasping at straws. Juggernaut has been confused for a mutant in comics plenty of times. Even in a 616 Thor comic he was labeled by the narrator as a mutant and a character within the story as one.
Thor didn't have a hammer either. I don't know what to call it, it was more of a Ankh piece.
Originally posted by Ptr_GrifinI never once said he wasn't a mutant, so there's that.
So that fact that he was part of the Mutant Liberation Front, and on the cover of the comic he is in the middle on says, "Mutant Rebellion", and that the force field is called, "Mutant Detection Field", doesn't say he was a mutant to you? You're grasping at straws. Juggernaut has been confused for a mutant in comics plenty of times. Even in a 616 Thor comic he was labeled by the narrator as a mutant and a character within the story as one.Thor didn't have a hammer either. I don't know what to call it, it was more of a Ankh piece.
Same principle. He hit things with it, he shot lightning, he killed Wolverine with a blast, etc.
As soon as she reversed it, it was the same New Warriors reversing back to the way they were. As well as it was the same planet. Just altered reality.
And a mutant Juggernaut does not draw on the power from the Crimson Cosmos. People were different, Nova owned Thors character (I think his name was Horus in the comic) and Thor failed to put that version of Juggernaut down when that shield did better. And I don't see Thor being put down by Nova, especially at that age.
Just to throw this out there, Thor directly calls Juggs a mutant.
Originally posted by Ptr_GrifinOr he's a mutant who draws from the crimson cosmos.
And a mutant Juggernaut does not draw on the power from the Crimson Cosmos. People were different, Nova owned Thors character (I think his name was Horus in the comic) and Thor failed to put that version of Juggernaut down when that shield did better. And I don't see Thor being put down by Nova, especially at that age.Just to throw this out there, Thor directly calls Juggs a mutant.
Nova stunned Thor and Iron Man with a sudden surge of power that he right on panel states that he's never done anything like that before. Thor was on his knees, and Iron Man was holding his head upright. They were up right away.
Thor stood right in front of Juggernaut and they took turns hitting each other. The shield disrupted his cells. Thor hit him with basic attacks. And the Destroyer should be able to really disrupt his cells with beams that have cut Mjolnir in half.
Anyway, let's get onto the scans.
Retroactively changed reality:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-012-12.jpg
Remade the world:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-012-13.jpg
Reverts it back, and surprise, it's the same characters (although they have different costumes, so clearly they were different characters...):
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-013-22.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-013-23.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-013-24.jpg
She used 616 characters and switched them up via reality manip. They had the same powers, they were the same characters, they just had different origins.
Sphinx later said she recreated all reality. You don't think a character can change reality for every single character on the planet (or universe), but she can't change Juggernaut into a mutant (especially when writers at the time had no idea what Juggernaut actually was)?
I'm on the fence, I'd have to read the story myself to decide. On one hand I see Bran's point on the other, reality warping is still reality warping and can drastically change history and origins making characters effectively completely different.
Morgan Le Fay for example altered reality but pretty much just lobotomized the Avengers and changed shit to Medieval times. The world was different but the changes to heroes themselves were very superficial (Might as well have transported them in time). But we also have shit like House of M when characters were completely different animals. It's almost a case by case basis imho.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm on the fence, I'd have to read the story myself to decide. On one hand I see Bran's point on the other, reality warping is still reality warping and can drastically change history and origins making characters effectively completely different.Morgan Le Fay for example altered reality but pretty much just lobotomized the Avengers and changed shit to Medieval times. The world was different but the changes to heroes themselves were very superficial (Might as well have transported them in time). But we also have shit like House of M when characters were completely different animals. It's almost a case by case basis imho.
Deciding argument. Thor hits Wolverine:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-06.jpg
Really though, no powers were changed, just origins. And she remade the world, and then remade it back. It was still the 616 verse (unlike HoM).
Altered Reality, the 616 reality has been altered. You know a another way you can reword that, Alternate Reality.
I never assume that when a character is altered or from an altered reality, that they are the same, power wise or character traits. Especially when they have their core powers changed from what they were to mutant or from mutant to another power origin. Time and again, a mutant Juggernaut has never been more powerful than one with Mystical origin.
A shield specifically designed to affect mutants actually affected a Mutant Juggernaut is not really a surprise and shouldn't be able to do the same to one who was transformed by the Gem of Cyttorak.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Deciding argument. Thor hits Wolverine:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-06.jpgReally though, no powers were changed, just origins.
Yet in 616, Wolverine has regenerated from a Skeleton. There is even still some meat on his bones in that second pic.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Deciding argument. Thor hits Wolverine:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-06.jpgReally though, no powers were changed, just origins. And she remade the world, and then remade it back. It was still the 616 verse (unlike HoM).
But changing origins can drastically change powers. While that's an awesome scene to tease Skrank with, from a glance, that seems to be nothing like Thor. He's not even called Thor, and apparently he get's empowered by the Egyptian Gods? Might as well be a different person in my book tbh. No Mjolnir, not Asgardian? Meh.
Originally posted by Ptr_GrifinAnd it's all 616 characters, as evidenced by the New Warriors being... the same characters. As evidenced by her remaking the world, as opposed to creating a new one. As evidenced by it not taking place in an alternate reality.
Altered Reality, the 616 reality has been altered. You know a another way you can reword that, Alternate Reality.I never assume that when a character is altered or from an altered reality, that they are the same, power wise or character traits. Especially when they have their core powers changed from what they were to mutant or from mutant to another power origin. Time and again, a mutant Juggernaut has never been more powerful than one with Mystical origin.
A shield specifically designed to affect mutants actually affected a Mutant Juggernaut is not really a surprise and shouldn't be able to do the same to one who was transformed by the Gem of Cyttorak.
Yet in 616, Wolverine has regenerated from a Skeleton. There is even still some meat on his bones in that second pic.
Yes, and it would have done the same thing had it been a cellular attack to a normal Juggernaut. Although it's funny you previously brought up how confused writers were about whether Juggernaut was a mutant or not... in the unquestionably 616 verse. Clearly those were alternate realities too.
And I bet people thought he was dead then too. It's taken him what, weeks before to regen from a skeleton. He didn't have time to show he was still alive there.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yes, and it would have done the same thing had it been a cellular attack to a normal Juggernaut. Although it's funny you previously brought up how confused writers were about whether Juggernaut was a mutant or not... in the unquestionably 616 verse. Clearly those were alternate realities too.And I bet people thought he was dead then too. It's taken him what, weeks before to regen from a skeleton. He didn't have time to show he was still alive there.
Again, you don't know if the shield would do the same to 616 if it had been a cellular attack.
You're grasping at straws again. So now that version of Wolverine is not dead?
Me bringing up that Juggs has been called a mutant in 616, is to show some writers don't know much about him before they write him.
But in this comic, Juggernaut is a mutant, and a shield specifically designed to affect mutants affects him.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusHe's called Horus, which following it as the absolute truth and not a "false world" (As Sayge repeatedly called it) would have meant he was the head of the Egyptian Gods.
But changing origins can drastically change powers. While that's an awesome scene to tease Skrank with, from a glance, that seems to be nothing like Thor. He's not even called Thor, and apparently he get's empowered by the Egyptian Gods? Might as well be a different person in my book tbh. No Mjolnir, not Asgardian? Meh.
All she did was change his appearance, and create a false mythos for him.
Originally posted by Ptr_GrifinSure I do. It affected his cells. He fell.
Again, you don't know if the shield would do the same to 616 if it had been a cellular attack.You're grasping at straws again. So now that version of Wolverine is not dead?
Me bringing up that Juggs has been called a mutant in 616, is to show some writers don't know much about him before they write him.
But in this comic, Juggernaut is a mutant, and a shield specifically designed to affect mutants affects him.
Why would he be? Wolverine's healed from the same thing before.
And that would be much different than writers in 616 calling him a mutant. Actually, wasn't Juggs' best durability feat (taking the God Blast) from a writer who thought he was a mutant?
Either way, you can cover your ears all you like, but at the end of the day, it was just a false world, in the same universe, with the same characters, from a character with enough power to alter every Earth character. And if she wants to make Juggernaut a mutant, or the writer (which would make it so unlike 616 at the time), then they have the power to.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
He's called Horus, which following it as the absolute truth and not a "false world" (As Sayge repeatedly called it) would have meant he was the head of the Egyptian Gods.All she did was change his appearance, and create a false mythos for him.
Horus isn't the head of the Egyptian Gods, IIRC his the son of the brother of Seth. I forgot his name but he was the ruler until Seth took over and consumed the Egyptians to face Odin.
Meh, I don't know. I'd have to read it, seems pretty different to me imho.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Either way, you can cover your ears all you like, but at the end of the day, it was just a false world, in the same universe, with the same characters, from a character with enough power to alter every Earth character. And if she wants to make Juggernaut a mutant, or the writer (which would make it so unlike 616 at the time), then they have the power to.
Either way you can be ignorant all you like and make all the assumption you want. Because that is all you can do, is make assumptions, none of which are proven.
If the a character can alter reality and change the origin of power, the characters level of power can, and most likely, is also changed. That version of Thor couldn't put down a mutant Juggernaut and even resorted to a cheap shot in the back that couldn't put him down. He failed where a simple Mutant shield did not.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusRight, it was Osiris.
Horus isn't the head of the Egyptian Gods, IIRC his the son of the brother of Seth. I forgot his name but he was the ruler until Seth took over and consumed the Egyptians to face Odin.Meh, I don't know. I'd have to read it, seems pretty different to me imho.
On a basic level, her world was basically "filthy muties". All the good people were black, except Nova, and then he became a filthy mutie supporter. She took existing templates, and warped their looks.
Juggernaut was like the co-main character. Thor wasn't fleshed out besides basic wacking, so you won't find anything there.
New Warriors 11-13. Interesting read. 👆
Some more scans talking about the lies, and how the world is wrong, and they want to make it right again:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-012-08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-013-07.jpg
Turn the world back:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-013-21.jpg
Originally posted by Ptr_GrifinK cool. Let me know when you show scans proving it's an alternate reality. 👆
Either way you can be ignorant all you like and make all the assumption you want. Because that is all you can do, is make assumptions, none of which are proven.If the a character can alter reality and change the origin of power, the characters level of power can, and most likely, is also changed. That version of Thor couldn't put down a mutant Juggernaut and even resorted to a cheap shot in the back that couldn't put him down. He failed where a simple Mutant shield did not.
No character's power was even shown to vary slightly.
I wouldn't expect Thor to knock Juggernaut out with basic hammer, or ankh hits. Even pussy Juggernaut was taking his attacks without getting KO'ed.
The simple mutant shield was stated to have killed many mutants. Because it disrupts them on a cellular level. Thor hit Juggernaut with basic attacks. Difference.
The shield wasn't to show Thor could take down Juggernaut (although it opens the door considering Thor's exotic powers), it was to show Destroyer would blast a mudhole in Juggernaut.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
K cool. Let me know when you show scans proving it's an alternate reality. 👆No character's power was even shown to vary slightly.
I wouldn't expect Thor to knock Juggernaut out with basic hammer, or ankh hits. Even pussy Juggernaut was taking his attacks without getting KO'ed.
The simple mutant shield was stated to have killed many mutants. Because it disrupts them on a cellular level. Thor hit Juggernaut with basic attacks. Difference.
The shield wasn't to show Thor could take down Juggernaut (although it opens the door considering Thor's exotic powers), it was to show Destroyer would blast a mudhole in Juggernaut.
Reality is altered, there for it is an alternate reality.
House of M, Wanda had a break down and altered reality to recreate her lost children. The universe where House of M takes place is designated as Earth-58163, not Earth 616.
The story in New Warriors #11 - 13, "Forever Yesterday" has it's own universe #: Earth 9105
Edit: Also, this realities Avengers, appear in Avengers forever #11 & #12.
Edit #2: Horus uses a large ankh as the focus for his solar energy.
616 Juggernaut has had his flesh magically stripped from his bones. Guess what skin and muscle tissue are made of? And yet he still stood.
Back to Wolverine, you claim is still alive despite several characters mention his sacrifice (death) several times. In 616, he healed from bones in hours I do believe. So until they explore the reality further and Wolverine is shown/said to still be alive, he is dead.
Who's that Thor looking guy?
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Right, it was Osiris.
IIRC Horus was the only "Skyfather" during The End, which would have made him lead, since it was the head of the pantheon at the time.
I may have made all that up.On a basic level, her world was basically "filthy muties". All the good people were black, except Nova, and then he became a filthy mutie supporter. She took existing templates, and warped their looks.
Juggernaut was like the co-main character. Thor wasn't fleshed out besides basic wacking, so you won't find anything there.
New Warriors 11-13. Interesting read. 👆
Some more scans talking about the lies, and how the world is wrong, and they want to make it right again:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-012-08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-013-07.jpgTurn the world back:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-013-21.jpg
Not sure what you mean by that. The eagle headed guy is Horus in the End mini?
I'm not debating whether it was an alternate reality or not, but I really don't think you can use any feats seen in this Universe for the 616. Origins being changed, it being only temporary etc. is a lot liberty to do whatever with characters even if power levels are relatively the same (Streets are streets, heralds are heralds etc.)
Simple things like Cain gaining his powers from mutations instead of Cytorrak may seem trivial but is in fact a huge change and deviation from the character. Thor not having Mjolnir and channeling Solar Egyptian power is another example. Not to mention he's beat up Horus.
This is just my opinion anyways.
