A choice between Captain America or Professor X

Originally posted by KingD19
It had the potential to be a positive one. With Rachel guiding her, Hope could have taken on the Phoenix and used it to jumpstart the X-Gene in humanity again, just like she did with Wanda...even though Wanda and the K'un L'un training didn't make sense at all. And with it, the Phoenix 5 were turning the world into a much better place. It wasn't a "bad" thing for Jean either. Only when she was manipulated into becoming Dark Phoenix, and the Phoenix 5 only started going bad after they were constantly attacked by the Avengers.(Except Namor...Namor was a colossal dick)

And things would have gone much smoother if Cap didn't bring the entire Avengers with him to basically kidnap Hope.

Also remember while the X-Men were making the world a better place they were also turning it into a tyranny where you either followed them or were sent to Magik's Limbo prison. Not to mention many of the Phoenix Five if not all of them were showing signs of mental instability and starting to do horrible things and break down.

While I'm not saying Cap was righteous and without fault don't make it sound like the X-Men were some poor unfortunate group that was being picked on. They were clear and present dangers with what they were doing.

As for being a Diplomat I would pick Cap. But that's personal opinion. If there is one thing Cap is good at it's bringing out the best in people under any circumstance it's almost like his true Superpower.

Originally posted by Newjak
As for being a Diplomat I would pick Cap. But that's personal opinion. If there is one thing Cap is good at it's bringing out the best in people under any circumstance it's almost like his true Superpower.

Do you have an example?

Feel like Xavier is just so, so much better at this.

Originally posted by curryman
Do you have an example?

Feel like Xavier is just so, so much better at this.

Also look how it ended. The fight ended as soon as Captain America turned himself in. A few people kept going but basically as soon as Steve said they were wrong the anti-reg side stopped all because of Steve.

It's also why Tony wanted Steve on his side early on because he knew with Steve on his side he could basically get all the support he wanted. It's also an example of Steve not simply being a yes-man for the government.

Heck Steve during the AvX fiasco managed to have a diplomatic talk with one of Phoenix Five without it coming to a fight or attacking anyone. Based solely on Namor's respect for Steve. It was also one of the few times in the arc Namor wasn't trying to kill everyone.

I know nothing came of it but it's not like Xavier can claim he ended the fight either.

Hey don't speak ill of the temporarily dead

Newjak, those are two completely different things. To me rallying people behind a symbol and organizing them is not the same as bringing out the best in people.

And speaking of mutants, Cap seemed to wanna give Quentin life-imprisonment for making the weapon-conference guys reveal their secrets.

Life.

cap. Xaviers a little too trigger happy going into a persons mind when he thinks they dont realize it.

rogers there both great choices but rogers is american and he has a pure heart wants nothing but the best for humanity

Originally posted by Newjak
I hate to tell you this but according to AvX had Scott followed through with his plans and due to Hope not having her companions/friends to help her carry the weight of PF she would have lost control and destroyed Earth.

Also remember while the X-Men were making the world a better place they were also turning it into a tyranny where you either followed them or were sent to Magik's Limbo prison. Not to mention many of the Phoenix Five if not all of them were showing signs of mental instability and starting to do horrible things and break down.

While I'm not saying Cap was righteous and without fault don't make it sound like the X-Men were some poor unfortunate group that was being picked on. They were clear and present dangers with what they were doing.

As for being a Diplomat I would pick Cap. But that's personal opinion. If there is one thing Cap is good at it's bringing out the best in people under any circumstance it's almost like his true Superpower.

The P5, under the corrupting influence of the Phoenix, were portrayed as the villains in that arc, not the X-Men. The X-Men ultimately came to the same side as the Avengers and helped battle the P5. If it weren't for their help, and the help that the Avengers received from the premier X-Man(Prof X himself), the battle would have been lost.

What dangers? Cap and T'Challa were whining about how the X-Men were harboring a potential world-destroying mutant in their midst, despite the fact that the Fantastic Four harbor an even greater threat in their ranks(Franklin) and both Cap and T'Challa first hand witnessed his adult self's power during the war of the 4 cities, in the battle against the Mad Celestials. Hope is also much better trained in the usage of her abilities, unlike Franklin who could just end the whole universe with one wrong thought, so that point is moot.

Fair enough.

Xavier.

Civil rights leader, humanitarian, scholar.

Also a telepath of the highest caliber. That would definitely come in handy in diplomacy. Empathy is a big part of diplomacy.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Which doesn't make any sense, because Hope had been training all her life, she had been waiting the moment she found out about the Phoenix. I am not sure how exactly a a few days in Kun Lun of pretty much the [b]same training that she had been receiving from her birth, suddenly gives her an edge, and why Rachel(who has much better experience than Wanda) couldn't have guided/taught her on how to restrain its power. Plus, it's not like Hope was some unintended host that was vying for the Phoenix power. She was the PF's chosen host, and it was all but stated that the Phoenix was coming to Earth reignite the mutant race.

The P5, under the corrupting influence of the Phoenix, were portrayed as the villains in that arc, not the X-Men. The X-Men ultimately came to the same side as the Avengers and helped battle the P5. If it weren't for their help, and the help that the Avengers received from the premier X-Man(Prof X himself), the battle would have been lost.

What dangers? Cap and T'Challa were whining about how the X-Men were harboring a potential world-destroying mutant in their midst, despite the fact that the Fantastic Four harbor an even greater threat in their ranks(Franklin) and both Cap and T'Challa first hand witnessed his adult self's power during the war of the 4 cities, in the battle against the Mad Celestials. Hope is also much better trained in the usage of her abilities, unlike Franklin who could just end the whole universe with one wrong thought, so that point is moot.

Fair enough. [/B]

Also the Phoenix did destroy a few worlds on its journey to Earth so it's not like a real threat wasn't shown and picked up on by everyone.

Franklin is different from Hope. Hope was summong a possible world ending force to her a force that was shown to destroy worlds in the same arc you're referencing, and it was never Caps intention to do anything to girl herself they were just trying to prevent her merger with the PF.

captain america would never ever work. let's take a look at the nature of the character:

he was created for propaganda purposes: an association of the best humanity could possibly offer with the USA and a defense of the country's involvement in the war in europe.

now, as Jake has pointed out, Cap realizes his country "isn't perfect" (a coy way of putting it) and often challenges his government's policies. this, of course, stems from the writers themselves becoming more skeptical and critical of the US establishment and culture.

nevertheless, his identification with the US is exactly the reason he gets the mary suish treatment of personifying (the writer's view of) good and justice. it is the reason he inspires "everybody in the world". he represents what americans would or do like to believe about their country. he isn't just a walking symbol of a nation he is a walking symbol of belief in american exceptionality.

if we're being minimally realistic and setting aside moments of mary sue grandeur, he would never be accepted as a global diplomat, not even by US allies, and would always be viewed as a pawn of american interests.

chuck on the other hand stands for people rising above the their differences and the vendetta cycles towards mutual acceptance and peaceful coexistence. sure he is flawed, controlling and arrogant. He has hipocritically violated his own beliefs, but he does live up to them most of the time and more importantly, he is a symbol of integration and isn't viewed as anyboy's pawn. he's also more intelligent and accomplished as a diplomat, as others have pointed out.

as for cap being more grounded to reality and willing to do what it takes to preserve peace, I disagree wholeheartedly. he is mr. "there's always another way" as exemplified by his handling of the wanda situation leading to house of m.

Originally posted by Newjak
A lot of things didn't make sense about AvX but if you're gonna use it like you are you need to at least be willing to take all of it in, and the fact remains had Cap not intervened the Phoenix would have destroyed Earth because Rachel did not have her companion to help control it.

Originally posted by Newjak
A lot of things didn't make sense about AvX but if you're gonna use it like you are you need to at least be willing to take all of it in, and the fact remains had Cap not intervened the Phoenix would have destroyed Earth because Rachel did not have her companion to help control it.

Also the Phoenix did destroy a few worlds on its journey to Earth so it's not like a real threat wasn't shown and picked up on by everyone.

Franklin is different from Hope. Hope was summong a possible world ending force to her a force that was shown to destroy worlds in the same arc you're referencing, and it was never Caps intention to do anything to girl herself they were just trying to prevent her merger with the PF.

I am completely aware of that, and have addressed it in previous posts as well. For all the destruction it caused, it was made abundantly clear that the Phoenix was coming to Earth for one reason only: to revive the mutants and restore the natural evolutionary order of things.

Nope, they attempted to forcefully take her from the X-Men in the beginning of the arc. That Hope decided to leave with them because of her seeming disillusionment with the P5's actions is wholly another matter. Not to mention that Cap essentially insulted the ability of the X-Men to keep Hope under control once she became the Phoenix, when we have already seen the number of times the X-Men have successfully dealt with the Phoenix. Franklin has also time and again been referenced as a cosmic scale threat, in the presence of Abstract Beings no less, yet the Avengers have never bothered bullying the Fantastic Four into giving him up.

It's 'earth' picking a diplomat. Rogers at heart is a soldier and despite whatever peace he might have been able to barter between any parties he isn't suited for a job of pure diplomacy.

Prof X has the mental advantage if better understanding or even if underhanded matters are needed to solidify peace. He also has shown competent dealing with space aliens and thier cultures. The job of representing earth as a whole implicates diplomacy is needed against non earth related parties and Prof X is much more suited for it. If talks break down and conflict is needed then Steve has his time to shine as a rally point for humanity to fight.

I don't understand why this has dragged on for so long lol.

Originally posted by 753
had cap not intervened hope wouldnt have fled utopia and would have the lights with her when the phoenix came, though we'll never know how things would work out without kenji on the group.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The point is that it's speculation though. The X-Men(specifically Scott who knows the Phoenix better than anyone else) were confident that Hope would control it, she'd been receiving the same training she got in KunLun her entire life, that coupled with the fact that the Phoenix was coming to Earth to specifically undo Wanda's spell clearly tells me that either way, the end result would have mutants on the rise again.

I am completely aware of that, and have addressed it in previous posts as well. For all the destruction it caused, it was made abundantly clear that the Phoenix was coming to Earth for one reason only: to revive the mutants and restore the natural evolutionary order of things.

Nope, they attempted to forcefully take her from the X-Men in the beginning of the arc. That Hope decided to leave with them because of her seeming disillusionment with the P5's actions is wholly another matter. Not to mention that Cap essentially insulted the ability of the X-Men to keep Hope under control once she became the Phoenix, when we have already seen the number of times the X-Men have successfully dealt with the Phoenix. Franklin has also time and again been referenced as a cosmic scale threat, in the presence of Abstract Beings no less, yet the Avengers have never bothered bullying the Fantastic Four into giving him up.

Need I remind you that one of the solutions that the X-Men used to stop and control the Phoenix once was Wolverine killing Jean. So don't act like they have a perfect bloodless track record in dealing with the Phoenix.

It wasn't a forgone conclusion by any stretch of the imagination that Phoenix couldn't or wouldn't destroy the world.

Cap tried to take her from the X-Men because Cyclops plan was to do nothing.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up Franklin as a counter. Cap never had any attention of hurting Hope his main goal was to stop the Phoenix cause it was an immediate and real threat at the moment going on a cosmic stampede towards Earth. Even when Wolverine tried to kill Hope Cap didn't want any of it. Had Hope already been in possession of the PF and had it under control Cap wouldn't have cared.

Originally posted by Newjak
It was also made abundantly clear by Unit that without her friends Hope would have lost control and destroyed everything.

Need I remind you that one of the solutions that the X-Men used to stop and control the Phoenix once was Wolverine killing Jean. So don't act like they have a perfect bloodless track record in dealing with the Phoenix.

It wasn't a forgone conclusion by any stretch of the imagination that Phoenix couldn't or wouldn't destroy the world.

Cap tried to take her from the X-Men because Cyclops plan was to do nothing.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up Franklin as a counter. Cap never had any attention of hurting Hope his main goal was to stop the Phoenix cause it was an immediate and real threat at the moment going on a cosmic stampede towards Earth. Even when Wolverine tried to kill Hope Cap didn't want any of it. Had Hope already been in possession of the PF and had it under control Cap wouldn't have cared.

I am not talking merely about the Jean Grey incident, I am also talking about the times the X-Men have managed to fight off the Phoenix Force on their lonesome, scans of which have been posted by MrMaster before. And as far as Wolverine goes, he tried to kill Hope before the Phoenix even reached her. He was part of the Avengers in this case, so I presume they would take responsibility for his erratic behavior.

Scott's plan was for the natural order of things to unfold. The Phoenix was coming to Earth for one reason: correcting the aftermath of the disasters created by Wanda, and it intended to use Hope as a vessel to fulfill that purpose. Tony's ultimate plan for defeating the Phoenix was pretty much the same thing that Scott had intended to do from the start, so irony abounds in that case.

I keep bringing him up because Scott was chastised for supposedly harboring a potential planet-destroying mutant in his midst, when it reeks of hypocrisy that the F4 have the right to harbor every bit the same threat in the form of Franklin. I know that Cap never had any intention for hurting her, what I am saying is that he had no right to simply barge into Utopia and demand that they turn her over to him either, as not only was this an illegal invasive act, it was insulting as he thought the Avengers could not only take care of Hope but also knew better than the X-Men of the threat that the Phoenix represented, which simply isn't true.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
And the Avengers added up to that stupidity by breaking the Force into 5 fragments and causing it crashland in 5 unworthy hosts.

I am not talking merely about the Jean Grey incident, I am also talking about the times the X-Men have managed to fight off the Phoenix Force on their lonesome, scans of which have been posted by MrMaster before. And as far as Wolverine goes, he tried to kill Hope before the Phoenix even reached her. He was part of the Avengers in this case, so I presume they would take responsibility for his erratic behavior.

Scott's plan was for the natural order of things to unfold. The Phoenix was coming to Earth for one reason: correcting the aftermath of the disasters created by Wanda, and it intended to use Hope as a vessel to fulfill that purpose. Tony's ultimate plan for defeating the Phoenix was pretty much the same thing that Scott had intended to do from the start, so irony abounds in that case.

I keep bringing him up because Scott was chastised for supposedly harboring a potential planet-destroying mutant in his midst, when it reeks of hypocrisy that the F4 have the right to harbor every bit the same threat in the form of Franklin. I know that Cap never had any intention for hurting her, what I am saying is that he had no right to simply barge into Utopia and demand that they turn her over to him either, as not only was this an illegal invasive act, it was insulting as he thought the Avengers could not only take care of Hope but also knew better than the X-Men of the threat that the Phoenix represented, which simply isn't true.

Cap dumped Wolverine because of what Logan had planned for Hope. Cap literally dumped him out of a plane.

And much like you keep neglecting to bring up is that Cyclops' original plan of doing nothing would have ended with the world being destroyed as Hope couldn't control the Phoenix without her companions at the time.

There have been times the X-Men were powerless against the Phoenix as well.

Scott was chastised because he wasn't doing anything. All everyone knew was that a giant flaming bird was rampaging through the universe destroying planet after planet. It was a clear and present danger to many people.

Simply acting act what Cap did was wrong doesn't make it wrong. Billions of lives were at stake on Scott's gamble (which has been said a many times before would have failed had no one intervened)

It was never the fact that Hope was completely dangerous and Cap had to have her near him for safety it was always the fact that Scott basically was allowing a possible global catastrophic event to happen.

Originally posted by Newjak
Except Unit was keeping her lights from her. Even if Hope had stayed with the X-Men the world would have been destroyed still.

It was also made abundantly clear by Unit that without her friends Hope would have lost control and destroyed everything.

unit did not know what would happen, the point of his plot was to find out.

Captain America actually proves the Nazis right, America just found out the way to produce a blonde hair, blue eyed super soldier first...

ironically created by jews angry at the pogrom in europe