Here we go again. 🙄
Originally posted by axel_jovan
1 / 24 of the strongest Jedi of that era…2 of which are feetless, and Braga and HoT are yet to be proven to be mid-tier level combatants (such as Savage, Maul, Anakin), let alone Dooku or Mace level.
Well I doubt their choice of footwear is relevant. 🙂
Who needs feats with a quote directly stating them to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy? And they are not completely featless anyway. Leeha was known as 'the Jedi who never knew defeat' and Warren is a war veteran who won many victories against the Sith. And Braga and the HoT have indeed been proven as such. That your thick skull is deflecting all attempts to educate you in this fact does nothing to stop that.
By this time the HoT had already defeated 4 Sith Lords, A Dark Council-level opponent, a creature that hunts Krayt Dragons, an Imperial Guardsman who's killed over 2 dozen (24) Sith Lords and the Emperors motherfudging Wrath. Thats easily enough to put them on Savages level. At least.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
What is more, this is by no means "a feat to end all FL feats." I find Sidous’s or Marek’s showings to be equally impressive tbh.
Well... you're wrong.
He overpowered 4 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the same time, with ease. I don't see how Sidious or Galen have matched that. They're both powerful, but Galen hasn't shown the ability to burn away flesh or disintegrate others with his lightning, indicating that his lightning is not as powerful as those who can and Sidious' best feat is disintegrating a Sith Worm. Its impressive, but hardly as impressive as Vitiates feats.
Seriously, what have they done to match it?
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Riiiight…. So how fast is Vitiate again? His mind domination will work in mid-duel because… you say so?
Because he's used it mid-duel? Because he's shown to be able to activate it easily as per when he mind****ed Scourge? Because of the source that states so:
'The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.'
I notice you somehow failed to respond to this quote. Care to give an opinion on it?
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Oh man, when you start throwing things like that I know you mean business lol
You misinterpret me. It just means that you've said something stupid.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Wait…….WHAT??So the fight is largely in a gameplay, and we have [b]no way to tell for sure
what happens there.
On the other hand, we know for sure what happened in a cutscene , we see what powers and abilities Vitiate displayed there.So….even though we cannot tell how Vitiate did outside of cutscenes you frivolously assume that he must be doing some uber-a$$ sh1t there, because….you know….why not?
Wow, you “methodology” sucks.[/b]
Oh dear. You've gone completely shit-your-pants doolally.
No, dear child I have assumed nothing. You have assumed. Assumed that Vitiate did not demonstrate uber-Force use in his duel. Which is completely impossible to prove since you do not see the entire duel. It is entirely possible that he did in fact demonstrate such power.
Meaning that your point is bupkis. You are arguing that since Vitiate did not demonstrate TK of that level in his duel then he cannot use it in a duel. As I've just pointed out to you that argument in untenable. Now go sit in the corner and re-read 'Logic for Dummies' hmmm.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
So Vitiate [b]does suck in a fight. He cannot subdue HoT who never displayed any major TK feat…. And you still claim that Count “I collapse caves and manhandle giant obelisks” Dooku and Mace “I obliterate battle droids with a Force push” Windu cannot do as good if not better than HoT? Okey.... your argument is terrible tbh.And this:
Riiight.
So what stops Dooku or Windu from blocking Vitiate’s TK, since, you know, they have much better TK feats than HoT.[/b]
Le siiiiiiiigh. You're going about this all wrong. You can't go 'soandso failed to overpower whatshisface, therefore they suck.' Instead, logic dictates that we say 'whatshisface resisted soandso, therefore they are powerful.'
To demonstrate: Yoda showed equal speed with the very fast Sidious. Therefore he is fast?
BUT, Yoda showed no overwhelming speed against Dooku, who has nowhere near the speedfeats of Sidious, and is demonstrably slower. So should I say that Yoda is only as fast as Dooku?
No, instead we say that Dooku keeping up with Yoda is a great feat for him. Yoda has proven that he is fast because he can duel equally with another extremely fast individual. We cannot ignore that or write it off. Its established. So Dooku doing well against him is only a mark of quality for him, not a blemish for Yoda. Keeping up?
Another example: Banes Force Wave demolished a huge temple yet Kas'im managed to block it. Was Bane's Force Wave weak? No, it blew up a ****ing temple! Kas'im is just strong (along with other reasons like that only a small part hit him, but the point is that it doesn't prove the Wave was weak).
If we translate this to the case at hand, Vitiate has been established to be superior to Dooku and Windu in terms of TK. He destroys huge temples and disintegrates metal. Therefore the Hero of Tython being able to resist his TK is a great feat for the Hero of Tython.
Nothing less.
And it is your argument that is terrible. You are seeking to impose a completely illogical restriction on Vitiate based on nothing. Dooku and Mace will likely not be able to block Vitiates TK because they do not have feats indicating parity to Vitiate. It is.... logical.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
One droid that may have armor….Still not sure how you make this feat to be so uber, considering that we have witnessed Force users disintegrate a dozen or so technobeasts, numerous storm-troopers (they are in armor! lol), a frigate….
I didn't claim that it was 'so uber', merely that it is an impressive feat beyond Dooku and Windu. Disintegrating metal is still a high-end TK feat. So what if its not up there with the highest? Still higher than his opponents.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
I’m merely pointing out the oddness of the fact that in a combat scenario where Vitiate was in immediate danger of losing his life, he did not use it.
Even if that was a valid argument, it would not mean that he cannot use it in combat. That's lunacy. It would just be PIS.
Its still not valid though, as you cannot say that he did not use it in his battle with the Hero of Tython.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
So, I see you are now attempting to lowball Dooku 👆But nice that you’ve provided this example.
[B]Dooku has the ability to keep up with Yoda speed-wise. The same Yoda who matched in speed Sidious, who, in turn, blitzed in seconds few of “the Jedi Order’s most celebrated swordsmen” before they could even react.
Now, given that Vitiate has never been portrayed to attain such speed in combat, Dooku will likely run circles around him their duel.
I'm merely pointing out the oddness of the facts. 🙂
So despite poo-pooing my quote stating that the Jedi Vitiate overpowered were the strongest Jedi in the galaxy you'll happily tout the Jedi Sidious killled as the orders most celebrated swordsmen. Riiiight. I'd be wondering when Tempest is going to swoop in and rage at you for your hypocrisy but I think we all know he only has eyes for me.
An illogical and faulty argument, as usual. Dooku hasn't demonstrated speed to the degree that he can blitz anyone. If he was as fast as Yoda then he would be capable of doing so, yet he doesn't manage it in any of his duels, does he? Unless Assajj Ventress is as fast as Sidious now too.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
lol You mean Yoda’s? How? Vitiate cannot even keep up with Dooku speed-wise. 🙁
He'd Forcepwn him.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
1) So….. you think that a trap specifically orchestrated to subdue unsuspecting victim = combat scenario where opponents are prepared for a fight…….okey.2) So…… according to you Jedi at the verge of falling to the DS are in top mental shape? In that state they are not especially susceptible to tricks that further their fall to the DS? Vitiate’s efforts bolstered by preparation and a DS nexus somehow do not count? This can happen again in the context free of these specific conditions? … Yeah, your point is obsolete.
1) ??? What exactly is different about it. I'm seeing no argument from you.
2) I don't see any reason why them falling to the Darkside would make them psychically susceptable. As I've proven, they were hardly suffering mentally seeing as Revan butt****ed a superior army due to his genius.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
The excerpt from the novel provided by The_Tempest does not indicate that Revan resisted it [b]only because he knew Emperor’s tricks. It does, however, indicate that Vitiate needs time to perform it, time he will not have in his fight with Mace and Dooku.[/b]
I've made my case and you've done nothing to contradict it. Your point below doesn't address my argument at all. My argument is very persuasive that Revan was only able to resist it because of his technique and so far it stands undisputed.
Not at all. As I've shown with the Scourge quote it takes little effort and time for Vitiate to touch someones mind.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Not at all. Part of the explanation was addressed above.Apparently for you Scourge being terrified of Emperor’s mind domination proves somehow that these feeling will be shared by Scourge’s superiors, Dooku and Windu. Scourge was living a whole life intimidated by Emperor—psychologically conditioned to fear him. Dooku and Windu will not conform to the same reaction in this combat scenario.
Oh dear, someone needs to re-read the quote in question. Scourge was not scared of the Emperor's mental domination, it was the Emperor's mind that affected him. He cried out in 'anquish', not fear. It was the fact that the Emperor showed him unspeakable horrors that terrified him, no pre-existing fear of the Emperor. I see absolutely no reason why Dooku and Windu will not face exactly the same things that Scourge did, nor that will not react in exactly the same way.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
2 / 2Big lol @ that statement.
Given that you agree that Dooku and Windu dominate in sabers, there’s one proof they win right there. The Force contest was also addressed, so I’m not sure why are you acting as if you are blind to it. Maybe out of denial?
Congratulations! You've completely missed the point! We are not discussing either of those things here, we are discussing evidence of Team 1's mental resistance. Try to keep up next time hmmmm?
Now, once again: There has been no evidence to suggest that Windu and Dooku can resist the Hero of Tython or Vitiates telepathic abilities. Take it slowly..... ok? And try to come up with an answer to that point next time.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Yes, you are saying so….. but given that they are faster than Vitiate and HoT noting stops them form murdering Vitiate and HoT in close quarters. Once they engage them in sabers, Dooku and Windu win 10/10.
And how exactly will they close that distance? Tapping their heels together 3 times? Neither is fast enough to close the distance that fast, are they?
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Riiight. But HoT cannot even keep up with one of them, how can he with two?They are his superiors speed-wise and absolutely dominate him in sabers. He has no chances to stall both of them when they mean business. If he tries, Mace BMF Windu slaps him 4 times in the face before he can blink. Just like Mace did to Kar Vastor 😎
He can. As I've shown and you've conveniently not addressed, the HoT does have speedfeats of blitzing Sith. So its highly unlikely that they will be able to blitz him/her in turn.
Oh come on. You can't seriously rate the HoT that low. You think he cannot keep them busy for a mere few seconds? The HoT is not that ****ing weak, see my list of feats if you don't believe me.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
A good argument has already been offered by Sidious66. I won’t be repeating what he said, nor do I have to. Noting suggest Vitiate can keep up with Mace speed-wise, he may even not be able to catch Windu with FL in the first place.
Vitiates lightning filled the whole room in that video. And please, when has anyone ever dodged lightning? 🙄
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Indeed, when it comes to raw Force power and Force knowledge, Vitiate is above Dooku. However, in combat Vitiate is below Dooku. In this respect, HoT handling Vitiate does not mean much, given that the latter is a mediocre combatant, whereas the good Count is an exceptional one.
Cool story bro. Sure, a guy who owned 4 of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy with ease is a mediocre combatant. Sounds about right.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
He will handle it, I am sure. However, Dooku still has superior TK feats, strength and speed as well as far superior saber prowess. HoT is going down. Hard.
Once again you've somehow conveniently forgotten to address the pertenant part of my post so here it is again:
"And lastly they'll just dominate Dookus mind. Since Dooku has no TP resistance to speak of, it will be a simple matter."
Try not to forget it this time.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Since when speed blitzing random mooks = Windu’s and Dooku’s speed?BTW. Details of the fight? How good where said Sith?
Yes. Have Windu or Dooku ever blitzed anyone?
Details have been given in my larger Hero of Tython post. The Sith had just defeated Master Kiwiiks, a member of the Jedi Council, which thanks to Tempests quote puts her as one of the best warriors in the Order. She was also able to resist the affects of the Shock Drum while right next to it. For reference, the Shock Drum can destroy a planet.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Right. So in the video you masturbate so furiously to, HoT uses mind-trick on Braga [b]only after he defeats him in combat and reasons with him for good few minutes …. He does not even try to do so in mid-duel….This obviously won’t happen when he will face Windu or Dooku, who are faster and more skilled then him and will waste no time to sit down and chat.[/b]
So what? Talking to him doesn't make it easier to do anything to him nor does defeating him in combat. And its not like the HoT can't use it in combat for whatever inane reason you've smoked up, all they need to do is point at them and dominate them. Stop being ridiculous.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Oh, and the link that you’ve provided puts yet one more nail to the coffin where your argument lies:"Master Braga’s failure to redeem the Emperor broke his spirit. With his pride and faith shattered, he succumbed to nihilistic despair."
Somehow I think the use of a word “despair” does not indicate that Braga was in top mental shape at the time of his clash with HoT. Neither Dooku nor Windu will deal with the same psychological problems here.
In short, you argument concerning HoT has failed thoroughly.
And yet he was still able to break free from the Emperor's mental control i.e. 'the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen'. Are you just ignoring that???? That proves that Tol Braga has high mental resistance. No amount of despair purges away that feat. You cannot handwave this.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
No, just giving quantifiable feats for Braga will suffice.As of now I have seen nothing here, or in other threads, that make me believe Braga will be a match for a combatant, say of Maul’s caliber, let alone Dooku or Windu. So much for his “immense powers”
I have.
I don't particularly care what you believe. I'm now thoroughly convinced that you're so utterly biased and stubborn that no amount of evidence will seep through. All I'm interested in is addressing your points to demonstrate the strength of my arguments.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
facepalmOk, someone has to do it and shatter your childish dream that this feat somehow makes Braga „immensely powerful”
You ostensibly confuse “power feat”, “skill feat” and “persistence feat”.
This feat only indicates that Braga is one persistent motherfvcker, not that his skills with a saber or in the Force are magically on Dooku or Mace’s level.
In fact, it does not say anything about his skillset at all. The only thing you’ve proven is that Braga has met his match in some Sith Lord.
(BTW. How good is said Sith Lord? What Force powers/saber skills he possesses?)Given that from what we have seen Dooku and Windu are faster, stronger, more skilled in the Force and are Braga’s decisive superiors in saber combat, Braga is nothing special compared to them.
Yes, Braga has good power reserves, but they will hardly come to play when he will be murdered/blitzed by Windu or Dooku.
Oh my god, I can't believe this is a thing that you've actually written and thought was intelligent.
What do you think immense power reserves are if not 'immense power'. Are you high? Or are you merely so soft in the head that you cannot wrap your mind around this one simple thing? What different is there between power and persistence? A Jedi needs to draw on the Force to fight ergo drawing on it for a long time requires a lot of power. Ergo fighting for days indicates immense power. The fact that he's even called one of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy kind of cements that, you goon!
I... I already wrote a post on how good the Sith Lord was. Its right below the part you just quoted. You actually did quote a part of it! Jesus.....
Except... we haven't seen that. You're merely assuming they are, just like in the last thread. And Braga isn't in this thread nor are we talking about his combat feats. Only about how powerful he is. How does his lightsaber feats come into play when all we're discussing is how impressive it is that the HoT mindfvcked him? As I've shown, he is extremely powerful. So I've proven my case. I don't need to post any combat feats lmao keep up bro.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Rigth, but there is still an extremely large gap to bridge between “being weakling “ level and being on Dooku and Mace’s level. And from what we see Braga and HoT fall somewhere in-between those categories.
Cool story bro.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Yes, Vitiate is a powerful Sith, with the help of prep time and rituals.
But in melee combat Vitiate will not measure up to Dooku or Windu, and neither will HoT or Braga.
Then its a good thing that it won't come to melee combat then isn't it?
Also Vitiate is hardly only a powerful Sith because of prep time. The fact that he allows Sith Lords to meet and talk to him while fully armed shows how confident in his power he is.
Funny how Dooku gets lowballed here for not being a powerhouse. It's mostly irrelevant. Dooku's strength is in how skillfully he can utilize his Force capabilities. Someone like Vitiate will stay like a dumb in one place and try to directly overpower and someone like Revan will stay like a dumb and try to resist. Dooku on the other hand actually tries to outwit his opponents, catch them off-guard, when they least expect it.
Kenobi demonstrated that in direct contest he can stalemate even Anakin. In AotC he casually blocked Dooku's lightning with no seeming effort. However, in RotS Dooku attacked with TK in such a way that Kenobi put no Force defense whatsoever.
Anakin could block Dooku's lightning with lightsaber as he demonstrated in their last CW fight. Yet, Dooku still electrocuted him.
Dooku might not be as powerful as HoT. That doesn't mean he can't Force handle him like Kenobi or Anakin.
Also, lets not forget that Vitiate has no feats of team work. Windu and Dooku both were trained and trained others to fight like a team. The fact that Meetra could catch Vitiate off-guard and could actually kill him doesn't look well, when we consider him fighting against more than 1 opponent.
Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Vitiate will most likely walk into a lightsaber without any interaction from his opponent as he has already done with HoT.
HoT is also on a whole new league in comparison to most Jedi; he is another Luke in the making. What he managed to do isn't reflective of what other relatively inferior opponents can do. He seems to be above all Jedi barring Luke.
Team 1 is outclassed totally.
Originally posted by Nephthys
By this time the HoT had already defeated 4 Sith Lords, A Dark Council-level opponent, a creature that hunts Krayt Dragons, an Imperial Guardsman who's killed over 2 dozen (24) Sith Lords and the Emperors motherfudging Wrath. Thats easily enough to put them on Savages level. At least.
A) The very first major opponent that HoT encountered; Bengel Morr, rag-dolled battlehardened Jedi Master Orgus Din in front of him (this Jedi Master comfortably collapsed a large cave in front of HoT; seems to be on Dooku's level in Force mastery at least.)
B) Maul and Savage do not strike me as Dark Council materials; many powerful/noteworthy Sith Lords have served the Empire and were not Council members.
C) Wrath will cut Savage in to pieces, given his kill record and expertise in lightsaber combat.
D) Imperial Guardsman also sounds more impressive then Savage; killing 24 Sith Lords is BIG DEAL.
Savage is strong but lacks in expertise in both dark side and lightsaber combat. Telekinetic abilities are not going to be sufficient for him against much more martial and skilled combatants who also match/exeed him in power.
----
By the way, nice effort and points.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious, you seem to have missed out this part of my response:
No, I just really don't care what you find stupid. Vader has tanked lightning from SK. It's canon whether you like it or not. Vader's made adjustments to his suit, so perhaps it's more protected from energy attacks, IDK. All I know is what happened: Vader has tanked lightning from a very powerful force user, and has also tanked powerful explosions. Yet, Palpatine managed to fatally wound him. Case closed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You admitted that Vader just questioned and threatened them. I don't see why they would have raised a defense at that point if aggressions weren't actually imminent.
You're seriously reaching here. The only good point you've made, is that they may have been defenseless against Palpatine's lightning attack, since they were unaware of it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm just pointing out that theres clearly still physical force applied in blocking it with your bare hands. And therefore the only real reason why Yoda couldn't keep hold of his lightsaber was that he was surprised.
He wasn't surprised, though, unless he had short term memory and forgot who he was fighting.
To assume he was taken by surprise, is just retarded.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats the same thing. 😐 'Containing' it in a lightsaber blade is functionally the same as 'absorbing' it. In fact, its pretty much exactly the same.
No, it's not the same as containing it with a saber, it's a different technique entirely, which is why not many force users can accomplish it. When Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning, he absorbed the entire attack into his body and then released it back to him. Lightning is not absorbed into a lightsaber. The bolts can be drawn/absorbed onto a lightsaber, but the energy eventually dissipates.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore, rewatch that fight in AotC. Dooku's lightning manages to force Yoda's arm back, yet Obi-Wan blocked it with his lightsaber with no strain at all. Despite the fact that according to you, Yoda is stronger than Obi-Wan. If anything I'd say that indicates that blocking it [b]with a lightsaber reduces the force.[/B]
Yoda pressed his hand back in preparation to redirect the attack after he absorbed all of the energy.
And again, what is your point?
As I said, Yoda, despite his incredible strength, was not strong enough to hold on to his saber when it was hit by a powerful blast of Palpatine's lightning, whereas his mastery with force aborption was a better way for him to handle it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
But of course, if you actually have some proof that it reduces the force as you say it does, show it.
I said likely. Yoda even stumbles backwards when he tries to block it with his saber, whereas he kept better balance when he was absorbing that very same lightning with his hands.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't be ridiculous. Not only was Yoda in the much better position of having his lightsaber, but the text notes exactly why it looks like Sidious was doomed; Yoda was successfully pushing his lightning back.
Just because Yoda managed to bend back Palpatine's lightning, does not mean he could have kept it up much longer, and evidently he couldn't, which would be the most logical reason why he would retreat to another pod. That and the fact that we actually see, onscreen, Palpatine blasting Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands. I think it's pretty clear that Palpatine's lightning is too strong to defend against with a saber, even for a physical beast like Yoda.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He even offers a cocky boast that Sidious and his apprentice will be destroyed. You really think he'd be smacktalking if he felt threatened by Sidious' lightning?
And do you really think he would retreat if he felt he was on the verge of winning?
That smack talk can easily be interpreted has Yoda saying "maybe not at this moment, but I will eventually destroy you before the battle is over."
If we are arguing what makes sense and what doesn't, then my explanation is the only one that makes sense. Yours doesn't. You just don't want to accept the fact that Palpatine's lightning was too strong for Yoda to handle with a saber, when we see that he blasted a prepared Yoda's saber right out of his hands.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats funny, since I'm not only saying it (what now???) but I seem to be defending my point rather effectively.
No, you're being silly, and ignoring what we clearly see onscreen.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The term 'theory' here is important since we can neither prove nor disprove that he had a force barrier up. Since theres no actual evidence for or against it at all. This is all utter speculation. Really unless you can offer something good I'm inclined to dismiss the whole point.
Since it is a standard thing to do for a force user to put up a barrier/force shield or force defense when they are expecting an attack from another force user or when they are about to enter combat with another force user, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that Yoda decided not to defend himself from an incoming attack. Maybe Yoda only half way attempted to absord the lightning and failed, but it's stupid to assume that he put up no kind of force defense.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually if you look at the comic you can see that he keeps using his lightning on them for quite some while he talks to Vader. That would suggest effort on his part to reduce them to that state.
I don't remember Palpatine talking to Vader as he was electrocuting them.
Regardless, the fact that Palpatine uses one hand, does not suggest effort.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And btw, as LeGeND pointed out Vitiate did so 'easily.' (SWTORE, Page 92)
Easily as in they wasn't much of a match for him. If I knock someone out with two punches, I would consider that as an easy take out, but that doesn't mean I didn't put a lot of effort and power in those punches.
It took two charged attacks and several seconds for Vitiate to overpower the strike team.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Impressive.
Yup, especially considering that Vader is far more durable than any of the jedi on the strike team.
Originally posted by Nephthys
According to SWTORE, Vitiate defeated the Strike Team 'easily.' Do you still think Sidious could replicate that?
Yup, considering that it took a single short blast of lightning to instantly KO Yoda, who is more powerful than any of those jedi that Vitiate overpowered.
And since we are being silly here, what proof do you have that the jedi on the strike team had their force defenses raised? I see no evidents for that, I just see a few managing to block some of the bolts with their sabers, while others were just standing there taking it until they were finally put out.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Proving only that Revan and the HoT are amazing at blocking lightning. Nothing more
Or proving that Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Vitiates. Blocking lightning with a saber is something that most jedi are capable of. However, the stronger the lightning, the harder it is to defend against with a saber. In Palpatine's case, his lightning seems too strong to defend against with a saber, considering how he blasted Yoda's right out of his hands, and nearly overpowered Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak. The ROTS novel even says that his lightning contorted Windu's saber. And while it can argued that Windu's lightning did not look as if it was being contorted in the movie, it should not be ignored that Lucas thoroughly proof-read Stover's novel and approved of it, so it can be concluded that Lucas intended for Palpatine's lightning to be too strong for mere saber defenses.
In Vitiate's case, both Revan and HoT casually handled Vitiate's lightning despite being on a dark side nexus where a dark sider's powers are enhanced, while a light sider's powers are diminished.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
@ Neph, I will reply when I'll have more time, so probably tomorrow or during the weekend.In the meantime, prepare your anus. 😈
Don't ever pm me again with that off the wall insult shit. I'm making this completely public as I feel it should be. You have a problem with my posts then argue them in the thread as I've done with yours and keep personal attacks to yourself. Worse still is that my statement was a general one addressing an line of thought made by multiple posters in the thread, but somehow in your vanity you assumed that it was solely for you. If it were a response to you, I would have quoted you, so get over yourself.
Simple, to the point. Don't let it happen again.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, I just really don't care what you find stupid. Vader has tanked lightning from SK. It's canon whether you like it or not. Vader's made adjustments to his suit, so perhaps it's more protected from energy attacks, IDK. All I know is what happened: Vader has tanked lightning from a very powerful force user, and has also tanked powerful explosions. Yet, Palpatine managed to fatally wound him. Case closed.
SK actually subdued Vader with his lightning.
Proficiency in lightning is dependent upon its wielder's emotions and command of the dark side. Sidious was considerably more well-versed in dark arts/Sith lore then Starkiller (ever could be) under tutelage of Vader.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're seriously reaching here. The only good point you've made, is that they may have been defenseless against Palpatine's lightning attack, since they were unaware of it.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He wasn't surprised, though, unless he had short term memory and forgot who he was fighting.To assume he was taken by surprise, is just retarded.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it's not the same as containing it with a saber, it's a different technique entirely, which is why not many force users can accomplish it. When Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning, he absorbed the entire attack into his body and then released it back to him. Lightning is not absorbed into a lightsaber. The bolts can be drawn/absorbed onto a lightsaber, but the energy eventually dissipates.
As far as lightsaber based defense is concerned; Force lightning varies in its sheer scale and intensity on the basis of emotions and command of the dark side of its wielder, and protection afforded by a lightsaber is not always adequate.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just because Yoda managed to bend back Palpatine's lightning, does not mean he could have kept it up much longer, and evidently he couldn't, which would be the most logical reason why he would retreat to another pod. That and the fact that we actually see, onscreen, Palpatine blasting Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands. I think it's pretty clear that Palpatine's lightning is too strong to defend against with a saber, even for a physical beast like Yoda.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And do you really think he would retreat if he felt he was on the verge of winning?
Though the starting events of this duel still surprise. When Yoda confronted Sidious, why the hell he didn't keep his guard up? And an even more ironic event was that Sidious wasted the opportunity to kill Yoda after rendering him unconscious for a brief period. Sith mastermind at his utmost brilliance...
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Since it is a standard thing to do for a force user to put up a barrier/force shield or force defense when they are expecting an attack from another force user or when they are about to enter combat with another force user, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that Yoda decided not to defend himself from an incoming attack. Maybe Yoda only half way attempted to absord the lightning and failed, but it's stupid to assume that he put up no kind of force defense.
Some examples:-
- Sidious wasted the opportunity to kill Yoda after rendering him unconscious.
- Vitiate got close enough to HoT during a struggle to endanger his safety and paid the price for it.
So it is absolutely possible that Yoda didn't kept his guard up when he confronted Sidious or shielded himself to such a degree that he would be able to endure a powerful attack without much issue.
Keep in mind that Yoda send Sidious packing with a Force push as well. However, I find Sidious's defensive abilities to be inadequate for an individual as strong as him.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Regardless, the fact that Palpatine uses one hand, does not suggest effort.
Analogy: Maul put lot of effort in to pulling a shuttle with a single hand.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Easily as in they wasn't much of a match for him. If I knock someone out with two punches, I would consider that as an easy take out, but that doesn't mean I didn't put a lot of effort and power in those punches.It took two charged attacks and several seconds for Vitiate to overpower the strike team.
And "four of the strongest Jedi" is lot of firepower.
Vitiate easily overwhelmed such a formidable Strike Team, as per canon description.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yup, especially considering that Vader is far more durable than any of the jedi on the strike team.
Vader's durability is great but not unique; Malgus was extraordinarily durable as an example.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yup, considering that it took a single short blast of lightning to instantly KO Yoda, who is more powerful than any of those jedi that Vitiate overpowered.
2. The combined might of "four of the strongest Jedi" is going to trump that of (single) Yoda's in all aspects anyways.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And since we are being silly here, what proof do you have that the jedi on the strike team had their force defenses raised? I see no evidents for that, I just see a few managing to block some of the bolts with their sabers, while others were just standing there taking it until they were finally put out.
In addition, it is possible that Vitiate didn't go all-out in this case either since he decided to use these Jedi as his pawns.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Or proving that Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Vitiates.
Nyriss have demonstrated relatively greater proficiency with lightning. Vitiate is a far cry.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Blocking lightning with a saber is something that most jedi are capable of. However, the stronger the lightning, the harder it is to defend against with a saber. In Palpatine's case, his lightning seems too strong to defend against with a saber, considering how he blasted Yoda's right out of his hands, and nearly overpowered Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak. The ROTS novel even says that his lightning contorted Windu's saber. And while it can argued that Windu's lightning did not look as if it was being contorted in the movie, it should not be ignored that Lucas thoroughly proof-read Stover's novel and approved of it, so it can be concluded that Lucas intended for Palpatine's lightning to be too strong for mere saber defenses.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In Vitiate's case, both Revan and HoT casually handled Vitiate's lightning despite being on a dark side nexus where a dark sider's powers are enhanced, while a light sider's powers are diminished.