Mace Windu and Darth Tyranus vs Hero of Tython and Emperor Vitiate

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Don't ever pm me again with that off the wall insult shit. I'm making this completely public as I feel it should be. You have a problem with my posts then argue them in the thread as I've done with yours and keep personal attacks to yourself. Worse still is that my statement was a general one addressing an line of thought made by multiple posters in the thread, but somehow in your vanity you assumed that it was solely for you. If it were a response to you, I would have quoted you, so get over yourself.

Simple, to the point. Don't let it happen again.

WTF?? I didn't PM you, man.

Neither I'm not stupid nor aggressive to insult or attack someone via on board or PM....

My profile must have been hacked, anyway I will pass it on to mods....

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Am I missing something?

Yeah

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Don't ever pm me again with that off the wall insult shit. I'm making this completely public as I feel it should be. You have a problem with my posts then argue them in the thread as I've done with yours and keep personal attacks to yourself. Worse still is that my statement was a general one addressing an line of thought made by multiple posters in the thread, but somehow in your vanity you assumed that it was solely for you. If it were a response to you, I would have quoted you, so get over yourself.

Simple, to the point. Don't let it happen again.

Check the PM's registered date....

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah

S66 I think you mean Yoda is a force enhanced beast. Physical beast would be someone like Mace or Savage.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, I just really don't care what you find stupid. Vader has tanked lightning from SK. It's canon whether you like it or not. Vader's made adjustments to his suit, so perhaps it's more protected from energy attacks, IDK. All I know is what happened: Vader has tanked lightning from a very powerful force user, and has also tanked powerful explosions. Yet, Palpatine managed to fatally wound him. Case closed.

Case very much not closed! You've hardly articulated your point at all. Why, you didn't even point out when Vader supposedly 'tanked' this lightning. Because Legend is right, Vader was actually defeated by Starkillers lightning in TFUII. I think you're talking about this part from TFUI:

'Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.'

Yes, that does seem to indicate that Vader could tank Starkillers lightning. A compelling case for the Emperor. Except that, again, Starkiller overwhelmed and beat him with lightning in TFUII. At first this is easy to explain, Starkiller used the lightning rod to boost his power in the game. But you forget, thats not the only version of events:

'With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.

The Dark Lord staggered backward, transfixed by the unexpected retaliation. Starkiller leapt to his feet and followed him, keeping up the lightning attack and using telekinesis to rip Vader's lightsaber from his temporarily weakened fingers. Sheers of energy spread our across the wet rooftop. Smoke and steam rose up in a tortured spiral. The grating whine of Vader's respirator rook on a desperate edge.

He went down on one knee. Starkiller stood over him. Vader's lightsaber swept into his former apprentice's hand. The blade came to rest at his throat.'

In the novel Starkiller is able to beat Vader because theres an opening in his armor that allows his lightning to penetrate. So even if Vader insulated his suit, the damage allowed Starkiller to still damage it and defeat him. However, that's clearly irrelevent since there was no opening when Sidious electrocuted and killed him, right?

Except that there was!

His hand! When Sidious killed Vader his armor was breached. Just like it was when Stakiller defeated him. In fact, as I recall Vader had also lost a hand when Starkiller defeated him in the game. So yet again Vaders protective armor could have been bypassed. And when Starkiller defeats him in the book his respirator seems to be damaged, just as it was when Sidious killed him. Because of this I conclude that Vader was near the point when he would have died. He was defeated and having difficulty breathing.

Conclusion: Sidious' lightning would only have had to be a little bit more powerful than Starkillers to kill Vader. And in my opinion that does not equal it being as powerful as Vitiates.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're seriously reaching here. The only good point you've made, is that they may have been defenseless against Palpatine's lightning attack, since they were unaware of it.

And thats enough to prove my case. However I still stand by that there's no visual indication that they did put up an attack and no indication from them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He wasn't surprised, though, unless he had short term memory and forgot who he was fighting.

To assume he was taken by surprise, is just retarded.

As is it retarded to suggest that he could perform an action yet not an action that is far easier to perform. And one that if the script is to be believed, he had already performed for some amount of time. So tell me, why would Yoda be able to deflect Sidious' lightning with his lightsaber at that point, and for an extended amount of time, but had his lightsaber blown out of his hand immediately at another?

Perhaps because he wasn't properly prepared the second time?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it's not the same as containing it with a saber, it's a different technique entirely, which is why not many force users can accomplish it. When Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning, he absorbed the entire attack into his body and then released it back to him. Lightning is not absorbed into a lightsaber. The bolts can be drawn/absorbed onto a lightsaber, but the energy eventually dissipates.

Yet the technique in question is a simple one, taught to younglings as per The Jedi Path. And you have proof that its a different technique? The Jedi Path describes Tutaminis as 'the ability to channel or diffusing potentially harmful energy by using the benevolent energy of the Force.' It does not say that you can only do this through your own body. Channeling the lightning into a lightsaber blade and diffusing it using a lightsaber blade sound very much a part of that description.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda pressed his hand back in preparation to redirect the attack after he absorbed all of the energy.

And again, what is your point?

As I said, Yoda, despite his incredible strength, was not strong enough to hold on to his saber when it was hit by a powerful blast of Palpatine's lightning, whereas his mastery with force aborption was a better way for him to handle it.

Really? Watch it again:

YouTube video

The jerkiness of the motion looks far more like his arm was forced back.

You forgot another possibility: Yoda simply wasn't enhancing his strength with the Force at the time. POWER is right in that Yoda is not a naturally strong being, so he must instead enhance his strength with the Force. Now he would be doing this in a saberlock with Sidious, as would the latter, yes making it impressive that he overpowered Sidious. But would he have been doing it when all he was doing was flourishing his lightsaber against an unarmed opponent? When theres no need for him to enhance his strength?

I think not.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I said likely. Yoda even stumbles backwards when he tries to block it with his saber, whereas he kept better balance when he was absorbing that very same lightning with his hands.

Which could easily fit in with my explanation that he was surprised. And he is forced back a step by Sidious when blocking it with his hand.

And then forced back again:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just because Yoda managed to bend back Palpatine's lightning, does not mean he could have kept it up much longer, and evidently he couldn't, which would be the most logical reason why he would retreat to another pod. That and the fact that we actually see, onscreen, Palpatine blasting Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands. I think it's pretty clear that Palpatine's lightning is too strong to defend against with a saber, even for a physical beast like Yoda.

Except that the text backs up this by saying that the Dark Lord looks doomed. Just read the text: Yoda disarms Sidious, then manages to turn back his lightning, the text itself notes that Sidious looks doomed and then Yoda quips that he's going to win. You really think that whats actually going on is that Sidious is overpowering him? Everything in the scene suggests differently.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And do you really think he would retreat if he felt he was on the verge of winning?

That smack talk can easily be interpreted has Yoda saying "maybe not at this moment, but I will eventually destroy you before the battle is over."

If we are arguing what makes sense and what doesn't, then my explanation is the only one that makes sense. Yours doesn't. You just don't want to accept the fact that Palpatine's lightning was too strong for Yoda to handle with a saber, when we see that he blasted a prepared Yoda's saber right out of his hands.

No I don't, which is the entire point by which I'm calling it ****ing stupid.

No, it can't. Yoda says 'Destroy you I will' not 'Eventually.' He wouldn't take the time to confidently proclaim that he's going to win if Sidious was overpowering him. Splitting his focus between holding Sidious back and talking to him is not something he'd be doing if he was only barely doing and failing at the former.

And yet Yoda blocked his lightning for a prolonged period of time in the script and achieved the much more difficult task of doing so with his hands previously. Even if Sidious did overpower him legitimately with his lightning, I could just claim it to be from exhaustion, which is noted to be a factor in Ataru. Yoda could easily just be physically weakened from tiredness. And then I can also argue that Yoda wasn't enhancing his strength at the time.

So really I'm in no danger from this point.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, you're being silly, and ignoring what we clearly see onscreen.

I'm being logical, and offering a different explanation of what we see onscreen than you.

Successfully.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Since it is a standard thing to do for a force user to put up a barrier/force shield or force defense when they are expecting an attack from another force user or when they are about to enter combat with another force user, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that Yoda decided not to defend himself from an incoming attack. Maybe Yoda only half way attempted to absord the lightning and failed, but it's stupid to assume that he put up no kind of force defense.

Its also standard for them to have their lightsaber out when they are expecting an attack from another force user or when they are about to enter combat with another force user. Yet Yoda did not have his in his hand now did he? Thats even more stupid than not putting up a force defense imo.

And no, the burden of proof is on you. I don't have to prove that he didn't do something. With no indication that he did, the burden is on you to prove that he did. The lack of any evidence for your argument is all the proof I need.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I don't remember Palpatine talking to Vader as he was electrocuting them.

Regardless, the fact that Palpatine uses one hand, does not suggest effort.

Prolonged use does suggest some effort was involved and that he wouldn't be able to do it in a single blast. Plus, as I pointed out to Tempest, Sidious was on a Force Nexus at the time. A pretty powerful one at that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Easily as in they wasn't much of a match for him. If I knock someone out with two punches, I would consider that as an easy take out, but that doesn't mean I didn't put a lot of effort and power in those punches.

It took two charged attacks and several seconds for Vitiate to overpower the strike team.

And yet canon says that he did not require effort. Your opinion on the fight is noted, yet irrelevent.

And I disagree. Vitiate holds the lot of them off with a Force Storm that he conjures with a one handed sweep, pushes the Hero back with a blast of lightning then takes them out in a single attack. Thats easy if they say it is.

I might think that Galen Marek resisting Sidious to the degree that Sidious' own lightning was turned on him and he screamed in pain means that he wasn't 'no match' for him, but if canon says differently who am I to disagree?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yup, especially considering that Vader is far more durable than any of the jedi on the strike team.

Objection! Was Vader actively resisting Sidious' lightning like they were to Vitiate?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yup, considering that it took a single short blast of lightning to instantly KO Yoda, who is more powerful than any of those jedi that Vitiate overpowered.

And since we are being silly here, what proof do you have that the jedi on the strike team had their force defenses raised? I see no evidents for that, I just see a few managing to block some of the bolts with their sabers, while others were just standing there taking it until they were finally put out.

Objection! More powerful than all of them put together? No. Easily more powerful than all of them put together? Hahaha, hell to the no! Besides which there is no indication that Yoda even attempted to block Sidious' lightning and if he did, wasn't able to bring his full power to bare.

Even I'm not petty enough to use that argument man. They had their lightsabers out and were charging at him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Or proving that Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Vitiates.

No.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Blocking lightning with a saber is something that most jedi are capable of. However, the stronger the lightning, the harder it is to defend against with a saber. In Palpatine's case, his lightning seems too strong to defend against with a saber, considering how he blasted Yoda's right out of his hands, and nearly overpowered Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak.

Except that both actually managed to do it. Your 'proof' kinda blows dude.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In Vitiate's case, both Revan and HoT casually handled Vitiate's lightning despite being on a dark side nexus where a dark sider's powers are enhanced, while a light sider's powers are diminished.

Again, explainable by Revan and the HoT being better at tutaminis than Yoda and Windu. But if you really can't ****ing accept that explanation for whatever inane reason, how about this:

Revan blocked it 300 years before Vitiates prime. He had 300 years to improve since then.

When the HoT blocked his lightning he was so exhausted that he could barely stand.

Oh look at how that totally proves that Vitiate sucks guys!

On a re-read, this:

'Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.'

Isn't as conclusive as I thought. It says he blasted Vader, but not whether he actually hit him. Vader could have blocked his lightning, stopping his assualt and the quote would be the same. So yeah, I think I'm going to have to ask again where exactly Vader tanked Starkillers lightning.

Nice, Neph.

The opening part of your response is amazing. You figured out a very vital loophole that led to easy demise of Vader from lightning of Palpatine.

You deserve a KISS.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Case very much not closed! You've hardly articulated your point at all. Why, you didn't even point out [b]when Vader supposedly 'tanked' this lightning. Because Legend is right, Vader was actually defeated by Starkillers lightning in TFUII.[/B]

But was killed by Palpatine's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the novel Starkiller is able to beat Vader because theres an opening in his armor that allows his lightning to penetrate. So even if Vader insulated his suit, the damage allowed Starkiller to still damage it and defeat him. However, that's clearly irrelevent since there was no opening when Sidious electrocuted and killed him, right?

Except that there was!

LMAO 😆

Vader's hand being cut off has nothing to do with the armor that protects his internal circuitry respirating systems. Vader took the full brunt of SK lightning attack to an opening in his chest plate. Sidious couldn't even properly attack Vader with the full brunt of his lightning, as the bolts were flying everywhere and majority of them were missing Vader, and yet Palpatine still did more damage to him than SK did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His hand! When Sidious killed Vader his armor was breached. Just like it was when Stakiller defeated him. In fact, as I recall Vader had also lost a hand when Starkiller defeated him in the game. So yet again Vaders protective armor could have been bypassed. And when Starkiller defeats him in the book his respirator seems to be damaged, just as it was when Sidious killed him. Because of this I conclude that Vader was near the point when he would have died. He was defeated and having difficulty breathing.

Palpatine damaged him beyond repair, and I believe there is a source that says it as well (I'll try to find it asap), but in the movie Vader flat out says that nothing can stop him from dying, whereas he ended up surviving SK's attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As is it retarded to suggest that he could perform an action yet not an action that is far easier to perform. And one that if the script is to be believed, he had already performed for some amount of time. So tell me, why would Yoda be able to deflect Sidious' lightning with his lightsaber at that point, and for an extended amount of time, but had his lightsaber blown out of his hand immediately at another?

A different attack of lightning. Palpatine's second lightning attack was likely more powerful, as the first one was an in the split of the moment reaction after recovering from nearly falling off the edge and dropping his saber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps because he wasn't properly prepared the second time?

To believe that Yoda was taken by surprise the second time is outright retarded. Yoda was in combat position with both hands gripped to his saber, and knew Sidious had no lightsaber to defend himself, therefore Yoda knew that Sidious had nothing but his force powers to rely on. Are you suggesting that Yoda had short term memory?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yet the technique in question is a simple one, taught to younglings as per The Jedi Path. And you have proof that its a different technique? The Jedi Path describes Tutaminis as 'the ability to channel or diffusing potentially harmful energy by using the benevolent energy of the Force.' It does not say that you can only do this through your own body. Channeling the lightning into a lightsaber blade and diffusing it using a lightsaber blade sound very much a part of that description.

I already explained the difference.

Using a lightsaber is more dependent on one's physical strength, whereas absorbing it with your hands is dependent on one's force mastery and raw force power. When Windu was deflecting Sidious lightning with his blade, the novel said he had no more strength left to fight his own blade. Using a lightsaber to block an attack is limited to one's physical strength.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? Watch it again:

YouTube video

The jerkiness of the motion looks far more like his arm was forced back.

Jerkiness? Again, the first lightning attack looked more to me that he pushed his arm back in preparation to redirect the lightning. The second attack was longer and Yoda had his hand stationary the entire time until he fully absorbed the entire attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You forgot another possibility: Yoda simply wasn't enhancing his strength with the Force at the time. POWER is right in that Yoda is not a naturally strong being, so he must instead enhance his strength with the Force. Now he would be doing this in a saberlock with Sidious, as would the latter, yes making it impressive that he overpowered Sidious. But would he have been doing it when all he was doing was flourishing his lightsaber against an [b]unarmed opponent? When theres no need for him to enhance his strength?[/B]

Yoda was in the middle of combat, there is not reason to assume that he was no longer using the force to enhance his physicality, especially when he knew Palpatine was capable of attacking him with lightning, which causes a forceful impact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which could easily fit in with my explanation that he was surprised. And he is forced back a step by Sidious when blocking it with his hand.

Yeah, being forced back a step compares to stumbling backwards.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And then forced back again:

As I said, Yoda kept better balance when he was absorbing the lightning with his hands, despite the fact that Palpatine was closing in on him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No I don't, which is the entire point by which I'm calling it ****ing stupid.

Yeah, because you're going by your retarded explanation. Mine is the only one that makes sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it can't. Yoda says 'Destroy you I will' not 'Eventually.' He wouldn't take the time to confidently proclaim that he's going to win if Sidious was overpowering him. Splitting his focus between holding Sidious back and talking to him is not something he'd be doing if he was only barely doing and failing at the former.

Have you seen the movie "Envaders from Mars"? If not, you can google it. But anyway, there is a scene where a teacher, whose mind was taken over by aliens, tried to kidnap this little boy. Well she failed and the boy managed to escape, and then the teacher shouts out in irritation "I will get you David Gardner" because of her failure to capture him. She didn't say "eventually." Stop being ridiculous, Neph.

Yoda manages to hold on to his saber and bend back Palpatine's lightning for a bit, and the scripts says Palpatine looked as if he was doomed, then Yoda says "destroy you I will" and retreats right after, which seems to suggest that Yoda didn't have faith in continuing containing the lightning any further. So regardless of whether or not Palpatine looked as if he was doomed, it is irrelevant if Yoda could not continue to bend back Palpatine's lightning any longer.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet Yoda blocked his lightning for a prolonged period of time in the script and achieved the much more difficult task of doing so with his hands previously.

Prolonged? How long did Yoda manage? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? The script certainly didn't mention it, and it definitely didn't suggest that it was prolonged.

And prove it is a more difficult task of accomplishing with your hands. Evidently, in Yoda's case, it wasn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if Sidious did overpower him legitimately with his lightning, I could just claim it to be from exhaustion, which is noted to be a factor in Ataru. Yoda could easily just be physically weakened from tiredness.

If Yoda was exhausted when he attempted to block it with his saber, then he would have also been exhausted when he was absorbing it with his hands, which would contradict both your claims that blocking it with a saber is easier, and that absorbing it does not reduce the physical impact behind the attack, considering that he kept better balance while absorbing it even though Palpatine was closing in on him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So really I'm in no danger from this point.

Your argument was an epic fail. lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm being logical, and offering a different explanation of what we see onscreen than you.

Nope, clearly you're being silly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its also standard for them to have their lightsaber out when they are expecting an attack from another force user or when they are about to enter combat with another force user. Yet Yoda did not have his in his hand now did he? Thats even more stupid than not putting up a force defense imo.

It's standard for a jedi to have their sabers out if they are about to engage in a saber duel, or if it's the only way they can block energy attacks. But Yoda can evidently defend against force attacks with his force mastery better than he can with a saber. So, no, Yoda not having his saber out is "not even more stupid." Sidious was several feet from him, and didn't even have his saber out, so Yoda had no need to have his saber out at that moment. At the distance Yoda was standing from Sidious, he was most likely to be attacked by a force attack. And to suggest that Yoda had no force defense up is retarded.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And no, the burden of proof is on you. I don't have to prove that he didn't do something. With no indication that he did, the burden is on you to prove that he did. The lack of any evidence for your argument is all the proof I need.

Not when it's standard for a jedi to have their force defenses up when they are about to engage another force user. So if you want to claim that Yoda just randomly decided to have his force defenses lowered when he was standing in the presence of a force user whose force power rivaled his own, then it's up to you to prove it. And not having his saber out, is not proof that he had his force defense lowered.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Prolonged use does suggest some effort was involved and that he wouldn't be able to do it in a single blast. Plus, as I pointed out to Tempest, Sidious was on a Force Nexus at the time. A pretty powerful one at that.

Sidious said one sentence after his attack started wane. That hardly suggests a prolong attack.

How powerful was the nexus? Do you have a quote or source? Btw, majority of Vitiate's lightning feats all took place on a dark side nexus as well, even when Revan described it as being infinitely more powerful than Nyriss's, am I correct?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet canon says that he did not require effort. Your opinion on the fight is noted, yet irrelevent.

Didn't you just claim that a prolong attack suggests effort? Well it took Vitiate two attacks of gathered energy and several seconds to put them out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I might think that Galen Marek resisting Sidious to the degree that Sidious' own lightning was turned on him and he screamed in pain means that he wasn't 'no match' for him, but if canon says differently who am I to disagree?

Because he wasn't a match for Palpatine power. He opened himself up to the force and commited a suicide attack by throwing everything he had at Sidious, which left Sidious unharmed and still standing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Objection! Was Vader actively resisting Sidious' lightning like they were to Vitiate?

Sidious was unable to successfully attack Vader with the full brunt of his lightning. But so what? Vader's far more durable than any of the jedi on the strike team, and is likely more powerful than them as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Objection! More powerful than all of them put together? No. [b]Easily more powerful than all of them put together? Hahaha, hell to the no![/B]

Umm, yeah. There is no way in hell Vitiate would "effortlessly" take out Yoda. Yoda is on par with Sidious, who can easily overpower force users in the prime of the jedi order (Maul and Savage come to mind) just as easily as Vitiate can overpower force users of his era.

Give me some feats of theirs with full context which would suggest that they even begin to approach Yoda. And I'm not interested in a list of opponents HoT defeated if they lack context. Not too many force users rival Sidious and Yoda, and I'm not just going to assume they do just because they are called some of the most talented jedi of their time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides which there is no indication that Yoda even attempted to block Sidious' lightning and if he did, wasn't able to bring his full power to bare.

Yoda puts his hand out in an attempt to block it, and as I said, it's a standard thing to do for a jedi to have their force defenses raised when they are about to engage another force user in battle. Maybe Yoda did not bring his full power to bare in an effort to absorb the lightning, but that doesn't mean he didn't put up a force barrier or defense up. Regardless, Yoda is more powerful than them, and it took one short blast of Palpatine's lightning to render him unconscious. So, yeah if Sidious can do that to one of the most powerful jedi in history, then he can definitely take out a bunch of featless jedi if he uses two prolonged lightning attacks. Definitely.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even I'm not petty enough to use that argument man. They had their lightsabers out and were charging at him.

So they had their force defenses up because they had their sabers out, but Yoda didn't have his up because he didn't have his saber out? lol nope, I need you to prove they had their force defenses up.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that both actually managed to do it. Your 'proof' kinda blows dude.

Except one didn't manage the second attack, whereas the other one only managed to because Sidious was pretending to be weak and stopped his attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, explainable by Revan and the HoT being better at tutaminis than Yoda and Windu. But if you really can't ****ing accept that explanation for whatever inane reason, how about this:

Blocking with a light saber is not the same as absorbing lightning with your hands, which is something that only the most powerful force users are capable of. Being able to contain lightning with a saber depends mostly on the wielders strength and how powerful the lightning is. Both Windu and Yoda are physically strong force users, and yet struggled to contain Sidious lightning with their sabers, whereas HoT and Revan casually handled Vitiate's lightning with theirs.

Let me guess, you want me to assume that HoT and Revan are physically stronger than Yoda and Mace just because you say so, right?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan blocked it 300 years before Vitiates prime. He had 300 years to improve since then.

How much did his lightning improve?

Originally posted by Nephthys
When the HoT blocked his lightning he was so exhausted that he could barely stand.

But he was also on a dark side nexus where a dark siders powers are enhanced while a light siders powers are diminished.

When Palpatine's body was almost ready to die out on Byss, a dark side nexus, he was capable of disintegrating Leia's lightsaber, and shrugged off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery, seemingly disintegrating it as well. Why would Vitiate's power be affected by exhaustion, especially when he would have an immense power supply to replenish himself with?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh look at how that totally proves that Vitiate sucks guys!

I didn't say Vitiate sucks. I think he is supremely powerful, but I think he is overhyped.

And your arguments are weak. The fact that you are trying to give me so many different explanations instead of sticking to one stance, suggests that you are wanting to force your opinion, that Vitiate's lightning is more powerful, on me. You are unable to counter my argument that Palpatine's lightning can overwhelm the saber defenses of some of the most physically strong individuals in the mythos, whereas Vitiate's lightning has been casually handled by the saber defenses of individuals who have done nothing to suggest they are as physically strong as Yoda, which may suggest that Palpatine's lightning is more potent, so you were just wanting me to accept that HoT and Revan are better at blocking lightning with a saber, but you are unable to prove that, so now you're claiming that Vitiate wasn't using his most powerful lightning during both instances (in Revan's case, because Vitiate wasn't as powerful back then; in HoT's case, Vitiate was exhausted). Which is it: are they just that good, or is it because Vitiate's attacks weren't as powerful when they were able to casually block it with their sabers? It's like you're just wanting me to accept that Vitiate's lightning is stronger just because you say so.

As a point of clarification, Neph claimed that Kalakar VI is a dark side nexus... But could only offer a citationless sentence from a Wookieepedia article.

Its from Resurrection, which I do not own nor am I inclined to spend money acquiring. I believe it to be too detailed to be fabricated however.

@SIDIOUS 66

Your assertion fits you well:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And your arguments are weak.

------

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You are unable to counter my argument that Palpatine's lightning can overwhelm the saber defenses of some of the most physically strong individuals in the mythos,

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
whereas Vitiate's lightning has been casually handled by the saber defenses of individuals who have done nothing to suggest they are as physically strong as Yoda,

Also, evidence have already been provided that lightsaber defenses are not sufficient to counter Vitiate's lightning when he augments it to FLS level.

Vitiate actually disarmed the entire Jedi Strike Team with his FLS, in case you didn't notice:-

The Jedi are armed:

Vitiate's FLS begins to disarm the Jedi:

The entire Strike Team gets disarmed before it succumbs to simultaneous pressure of mental domination and lightning:

NOTE: Narez and Sedoru got disarmed first followed by Braga and HoT.

Vitiate could go even further and reduce all Jedi to pile of ash but he decided to use them as his pawns instead.

Therefore, your lowballing makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
which may suggest that Palpatine's lightning is more potent, so you were just wanting me to accept that HoT and Revan are better at blocking lightning with a saber, but you are unable to prove that, so now you're claiming that Vitiate wasn't using his most powerful lightning during both instances (in Revan's case, because Vitiate wasn't as powerful back then; in HoT's case, Vitiate was exhausted).

During Vitiate's second confrontation with HoT; the Sith Emperor had commenced a Galaxy-busting ritual which put a strain on his strength and only when he got injured from a lightsaber strike during the fight then he unleashed his lightning but he couldn't manage to augment it to FLS level due to his strained strength and injuries and HoT benefited from this.

Under fair circumstances, Vitiate dismantled an entire Strike Team of strongest Jedi in the Galaxy as proved above.

It is immensely difficult to disarm 4 powerful opponents simultaneously then just one. Their is no contest.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which is it: are they just that good, or is it because Vitiate's attacks weren't as powerful when they were able to casually block it with their sabers? It's like you're just wanting me to accept that Vitiate's lightning is stronger just because you say so.

This debate should now be put to rest. Vitiate's lightning is superior because he can not just only disarm powerful Jedi with his lightning but also reduce them to pile of ash, should he wish to do so.

Vitiate taking out a greater number of battle-ready warriors simultaneously with his lightning, does not mean his lightning his greater than Sidious's anymore than Dooku taking out Ventress along with two other nightsisters with his lightning means that his lightning is greater than Sidious's, unless you can quantify how powerful the warriors are.

From what I seen, some of the jedi on the strike team didn't even manage to block Vitiate's lightning attack with their sabers, just as Ventress and the nightsister didn't manage to block Dooku's lightning attack with theirs.

Also,

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its from Resurrection, which I do not own nor am I inclined to spend money acquiring. I believe it to be too detailed to be fabricated however.

I use to own it, and I vaguely remember it mentioning Vader sensing the dark side was strong there, but I think it was because he was sensing the presence of Maul and the Dark prophets, not because the planet was a dark side nexus. I could be wrong though.

However, you implied that it was a very strong nexus, but yet you are not even sure if it was a nexus at all?

According to Wookieepedia the nexus was strong enough to lure a Baron Yorn there, who wished to conduct experiments on a darkside nexus. However the darkside was strong enough to turn him mad, tearing out his own eyes and tongue.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vitiate taking out a greater number of battle-ready warriors simultaneously with his lightning, does not mean his lightning his greater than Sidious's anymore than Dooku taking out Ventress along with two other nightsisters with his lightning means that his lightning is greater than Sidious's, unless you can quantify how powerful the warriors are.

As I've told you, they were the strongest Jedi in the galaxy.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
@ Neph, I will reply when I'll have more time, so probably tomorrow or during the weekend.

In the meantime, prepare your anus. 😈

I'm still waiting for this. My anus can only clench in anticipation for so long.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But was killed by Palpatine's.

Yes, I've never denied that Sidious' lightning is more powerful than Starkillers.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
LMAO 😆

Vader's hand being cut off has nothing to do with the armor that protects his internal circuitry respirating systems. Vader took the full brunt of SK lightning attack to an opening in his chest plate. Sidious couldn't even properly attack Vader with the full brunt of his lightning, as the bolts were flying everywhere and majority of them were missing Vader, and yet Palpatine still did more damage to him than SK did.

Well his chestplate has nothing to do with his internal circuitry respirating systems either. Unless you mean purely in terms of access to it. In which case:

Vaders body is connected throughout via these cables and wires that you see. Though really the breach in his suit from the severed hand should allow electricity to travel through it to the rest of his body adequately even without huge wires allowing electricity to travel to every part of his body. Its the only reason why despite Vaders armor being insulated as you say, Sidious' lightning was able to access him so completely that his skeleton lit up. Though really the lightning hardly needed to reach his respiration systems although it clearly did. Vader has a number of implants in his major organs that are essential to his survival and damage to any of them are a ticket to ****edville.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Palpatine damaged him beyond repair, and I believe there is a source that says it as well (I'll try to find it asap), but in the movie Vader flat out says that nothing can stop him from dying, whereas he ended up surviving SK's attack.

Yes. Whats your point?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
A different attack of lightning. Palpatine's second lightning attack was likely more powerful, as the first one was an in the split of the moment reaction after recovering from nearly falling off the edge and dropping his saber.

Except that the scripts says that he 'recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY'. Recovering =/= a desperate attack. And Yoda continuously deals with that attack, not only in the split second that you suggest Palpatine was not at full power. The script itself notes that Palpatine 'recovers' and yet that 'The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor.' Begin as in they weren't previously, indicating that Yoda was in fact dealing with Palpatines lightning better as the attack continued.

I'm sorry, but your point is mere speculation to handwave a clear contradiction, whereas mine has actual evidence on its side.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
To believe that Yoda was taken by surprise the second time is outright retarded. Yoda was in combat position with both hands gripped to his saber, and knew Sidious had no lightsaber to defend himself, therefore Yoda knew that Sidious had nothing but his force powers to rely on. Are you suggesting that Yoda had short term memory?

In their fight, Caedus managed to surprise Luke by using TK against him instead of the force lightning Luke was expecting. Its entirely possible that such a thing occurred here. In fact its rather logical, Sidious had previously failed to overwhelm him with his lightning and was at the time using TK against him.

And if he was expecting a lightning attack, why hold his lightsaber to the side, in the one place that it couldn't be used to protect his body from lightning? Why even have his lightsaber out at all if he's sooooo much better at blocking lightning with his hands. You yourself argue: 'It's standard for a jedi to have their sabers out if they are about to engage in a saber duel, or if it's the only way they can block energy attacks.' So isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I already explained the difference.

Using a lightsaber is more dependent on one's physical strength, whereas absorbing it with your hands is dependent on one's force mastery and raw force power. When Windu was deflecting Sidious lightning with his blade, the novel said he had no more [b]strength left to fight his own blade. Using a lightsaber to block an attack is limited to one's physical strength. [/b]

Objection! Your explanations are not canon facts buster!

Any actual proof to support this theory? There is clearly an element of strength involved yet also clearly just as much an element of force use. In DoE Zannah chooses whether she wants to absorb Bane's lightning or 'slap aside the violet bolts of lightning rather than trying to absorb them'. There is clearly the ability to choose here, indicating conscious force use, indicating that it isn't as simple as holding up a lightsaber and using strength to resist it. Also, 'strength' can just as easily refer to force strength as to strength of arms.

BTW, in Rule of Two and Dynasty of Evil blocking lightning is described as thus, 'and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy' and 'The woman countered by catching the bolt with one of her lightsaber blades. It absorbed the energy, emitting the strange, high-pitched hum Serra had heard earlier.' What exactly is the difference between absorbing into and onto? 🙄

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Jerkiness? Again, the first lightning attack looked more to me that he pushed his arm back in preparation to redirect the lightning. The second attack was longer and Yoda had his hand stationary the entire time until he fully absorbed the entire attack.

Yes, his arm gets thrown back in a jerky motion by the impact of the bolt. Him dealing with the second attack is probably because he was better amping his strength to deal with the impact.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda was in the middle of combat, there is not reason to assume that he was no longer using the force to enhance his physicality, especially when he knew Palpatine was capable of attacking him with lightning, which causes a forceful impact.

Except to save on energy. As I've said Ataru is extremely effort intensive to use and even more so for Yoda who because of his weak physicality must boost himself considerable and expend great energy to keep up and excel. Its only logical that he wouldn't be constantly boosting himself in battle when he doesn't actually need to to save on energy.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, being forced back a step compares to stumbling backwards.

I know.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As I said, Yoda kept better balance when he was absorbing the lightning with his hands, despite the fact that Palpatine was closing in on him.

Not true. Despite clearly putting more effort into it, he was still forced back by it physically.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, because you're going by your retarded explanation. Mine is the only one that makes sense.

Your explanations are the retarded ones. I'm actually using evidence to support my theories whereas you're just offering bullshit handwaves and unsupported speculation.

Its more strength intensive to block with a lightsaber than with your hands? ****ing prove it.

Yoda was being overwhelmed in a scene where George mother****ing Lucas himself says that it looks like Sidious is doomed? Offer a millimeter of actual evidence.

Yoda attempted to block Sidious' lightning? You have no proof at all.

You haven't offered me a single shred of evidence throughout this entire debate. The only reason why I'm still bothering to respond to your half-baked nonsense is because I've got nothing better to do while I wait for axel to actually debate with me.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Have you seen the movie "Envaders from Mars"? If not, you can google it. But anyway, there is a scene where a teacher, whose mind was taken over by aliens, tried to kidnap this little boy. Well she failed and the boy managed to escape, and then the teacher shouts out in irritation "I will get you David Gardner" because of her failure to capture him. She didn't say "eventually." Stop being ridiculous, Neph.

Yoda manages to hold on to his saber and bend back Palpatine's lightning for a bit, and the scripts says Palpatine [b]looked as if he was doomed, then Yoda says "destroy you I will" and retreats right after, which seems to suggest that Yoda didn't have faith in continuing containing the lightning any further. So regardless of whether or not Palpatine looked as if he was doomed, it is irrelevant if Yoda could not continue to bend back Palpatine's lightning any longer.[/b]

Thats an entirely different situation and you know it. She wasn't speaking from a clear position of superiority as Yoda was. She had not disarmed him moments before. She was not successfully beating back his attack and her scream was one of frustration while everything points to Yoda's being one of confidence. Note how in your example she didn't shout it in frustration as he was escaping, but afterwards. Because during she was focused on trying to catch him. Just as if Yoda was failing to block Sidious' lightning he would logically need all his concentration of continue doing so. Not boasting of his victory.

This is complete speculation. Everything points to Yoda having the clear upper hand in that engagement. The script itself, Lucas himself, points this out. There is nothing written in the script to suggest he was being overwhelmed. No indication of tiredness or weakness on his part. He wasn't just blocking Sidious' lightning, but was actually turning it back on him. Deal with it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Prolonged? How long did Yoda manage? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? The script certainly didn't mention it, and it definitely didn't suggest that it was prolonged.

Long enough for Sidious' lightning to begin to turn back on himself and for Yoda to say 'Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.' So I dunno, 10 seconds? Its a hell of a lot longer than 'not at all' in the later scene.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And prove it is a more difficult task of accomplishing with your hands. Evidently, in Yoda's case, it wasn't.

According to the ultimate visual guide, blocking Force Lightning with your hands is nearly impossible. I don't have the guide myself, but the source is Tempest who just finished chewing me out for dishonesty so I'm fairly sure hes on the straight and narrow.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Yoda was exhausted when he attempted to block it with his saber, then he would have also been exhausted when he was absorbing it with his hands, which would contradict both your claims that blocking it with a saber is easier, and that absorbing it does not reduce the physical impact behind the attack, considering that he kept better balance while absorbing it even though Palpatine was closing in on him.

I'm talking physically. Just to show you that even if you're right about it being all about strength that I can still easily counter it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's standard for a jedi to have their sabers out if they are about to engage in a saber duel, or if it's the only way they can block energy attacks.

Or if they're going to get into a fight, which duh they were. And as I've pointed out, Yoda attempts to block lightning twice in the duel in preference over using his hands.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But Yoda can evidently defend against force attacks with his force mastery better than he can with a saber.

Proof? Anything? No, I didn't think so.

If this is true, why did Yoda have his hands on his cane instead of at the ready to block force attacks. Everything in that scene points of Yoda being retardedly at ease. He didn't have his lightsaber out, didn't have his hands in a position ready to block and was speaking lightly and arrogantly. Its hardly a stretch to say that he didn't have his force defenses up as well.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So, no, Yoda not having his saber out is "not even more stupid." Sidious was several feet from him, and didn't even have his saber out, so Yoda had no need to have his saber out at that moment. At the distance Yoda was standing from Sidious, he was most likely to be attacked by a force attack. And to suggest that Yoda had no force defense up is retarded.

I could just as easily turn this around and replace saber with 'force defense'. It is just as stupid because Yoda has no idea of his capabilities. Not having his lightsaber out leaves him right open to Sidious rushing him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not when it's standard for a jedi to have their force defenses up when they are about to engage another force user. So if you want to claim that Yoda just randomly decided to have his force defenses lowered when he was standing in the presence of a force user whose force power rivaled his own, then it's up to you to prove it. And not having his saber out, is not proof that he had his force defense lowered.

No it isn't. Its standard for them to have their lightsabers out and yet Yoda didn't have his out. The fact that Yoda, in your opinion, raised his hands to block the lightning suggests that he didn't have Force defenses up. Otherwise why would he raise his hands to defend himself?

And no, theres no proof of anything either way. Which is why the entire point is irrelevent and its impossible for you to prove your case. Theres nothing you can do to indicate that he had his defenses up. The scene doesn't even take place in the book. You cannot prove your point. Thats a fact.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious said one sentence after his attack started wane. That hardly suggests a prolong attack.

How powerful was the nexus? Do you have a quote or source? Btw, majority of Vitiate's lightning feats all took place on a dark side nexus as well, even when Revan described it as being infinitely more powerful than Nyriss's, am I correct?

Proof that the attack 'waned'?

I've provided my source and the power of the nexus. Vitiates feat taking place on a nexus is irrelevent. Nyriss' empowered attack would have been blunted by her equally empowered defense.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Didn't you just claim that a prolong attack suggests effort? Well it took Vitiate two attacks of gathered energy and several seconds to put them out.

I said that it suggests. Which it does. However I don't make canon, do I? I also argued how the fight can be seen to be efforless on Vitiates part.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Because he wasn't a match for Palpatine power. He opened himself up to the force and commited a suicide attack by throwing everything he had at Sidious, which left Sidious unharmed and still standing.

And despite not being a match for Sidious' power he was able to walk through his attack and physically grab Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious was unable to successfully attack Vader with the full brunt of his lightning. But so what? Vader's far more durable than any of the jedi on the strike team, and is likely more powerful than them as well.

More powerful than them put together? Don't be ridiculous. Plus he wasn't blocking him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Umm, yeah.

Feel Edgeworths facepalm.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is no way in hell Vitiate would "effortlessly" take out Yoda. Yoda is on par with Sidious, who can easily overpower force users in the prime of the jedi order (Maul and Savage come to mind) just as easily as Vitiate can overpower force users of his era.

Give me some feats of theirs with full context which would suggest that they even begin to approach Yoda. And I'm not interested in a list of opponents HoT defeated if they lack context. Not too many force users rival Sidious and Yoda, and I'm not just going to assume they do just because they are called some of the most talented jedi of their time.

Well Sidious took Maul and Savage by surprise and merely pinned them for a few seconds. Plus theres nothing saying he did so easily. And 4 is twice as many as 2 last time I checked. Finally, Sidious used TK to do that, not Force Lightning.

Actually its 'strongest, most powerful and most resolute.' And no, I'm not going to do that. I've done that ****ing tons of times. I refuse to do it again.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda puts his hand out in an attempt to block it,

Proof of that interpretation?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and as I said, it's a standard thing to do for a jedi to have their force defenses raised when they are about to engage another force user in battle.

O RLY?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maybe Yoda did not bring his full power to bare in an effort to absorb the lightning, but that doesn't mean he didn't put up a force barrier or defense up. Regardless, Yoda is more powerful than them, and it took one short blast of Palpatine's lightning to render him unconscious. So, yeah if Sidious can do that to one of the most powerful jedi in history, then he can definitely take out a bunch of featless jedi if he uses two prolonged lightning attacks. Definitely.

So you rate a half-hearted Yoda who wasn't taking his opponent seriously, who may or may not have had his defenses up, who may have been surprised or only able to mount a token defense.... over 4 of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy at the same time.

Sounds totally legit.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So they had their force defenses up because they had their sabers out, but Yoda didn't have his up because he didn't have his saber out?

Yes. When they are actually engaging in ****ing battle its a safe assumption that they'll have their defenses up. When Yoda isn't engaging in battle, you need to show that he did have his defenses up.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except one didn't manage the second attack, whereas the other one only managed to because Sidious was pretending to be weak and stopped his attack.

Proof that Sidious only stopped because he pretended to be weak? I mean, he was getting his face melted.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Blocking with a light saber is not the same as absorbing lightning with your hands, which is something that only the most powerful force users are capable of. Being able to contain lightning with a saber depends mostly on the wielders strength and how powerful the lightning is. Both Windu and Yoda are physically strong force users, and yet struggled to contain Sidious lightning with their sabers, whereas HoT and Revan casually handled Vitiate's lightning with theirs.

Let me guess, you want me to assume that HoT and Revan are physically stronger than Yoda and Mace just because you say so, right?

Wow, I'm still looking for some proof of any of this. It mostly seems to just be you stating your opinion. Which is nice I suppose.

No, I want you to look at the evidence and form a logical conclusion from it. Vitiates lightning is incredibly powerful. At the least it is as powerful as Sidious' own lightning. It is infinitely more powerful than lightning which disintegrates opponents. Its easily subdued 4 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the same time. In my opinion its more powerful than Sidious'. But if you really want to lowball it, can you at least admit that its nearly as powerful as Sidious'? If so, the comparative ease with which Revan and the HoT blocked it does indeed indicate that they are immensely strong individuals. Right?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How much did his lightning improve?

Would you like a percentage? Whats the point of this question, its indeterminable. But you cannot argue that Revan blocking it makes it weak when Vitiate has 3 entire centuries to improve.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But he was also on a dark side nexus where a dark siders powers are enhanced while a light siders powers are diminished.

When Palpatine's body was almost ready to die out on Byss, a dark side nexus, he was capable of disintegrating Leia's lightsaber, and shrugged off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery, seemingly disintegrating it as well. Why would Vitiate's power be affected by exhaustion, especially when he would have an immense power supply to replenish himself with?

So? He was still ****ing exhausted.

Whaaa? No he wasn't about to die. He was walking around and talking just fine. Theres no indication of weakness of his part. In contrast Vitiate was on his knees and wheezing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And your arguments are weak. The fact that you are trying to give me so many different explanations instead of sticking to one stance, suggests that you are wanting to force your opinion, that Vitiate's lightning is more powerful, on me.

No. I'm offering different arguments because you're so goddamn stubborn that you just won't accept my actual arguments. So I'm offering you ones in the hopes that you'll actually listen for once. Otherwise theres no point in continuing the arguement. I've made my case, you just aren't listening to it. Theres only so many times I can say the same argument to you. Otherwise my argument would just be:

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

ad infinitum.

But I'm probably not going to bother responding to you anymore. It's too much effort to waste on someone so close minded and biased.