Originally posted by Nephthys
They weren't expecting an attack and he turned swiftly and caught them off-guard. Maul was surprised by Sidious' accusation of deception. He really didn't seem to be expecting an attack.
So your proof of their surprise is just you repeating the initial claim that they were surprised. 😂
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. Maul was also prostrating himself before Sidious, indicating that he was not prepared to defend himself. Which is the whole point of prostrating yourself as I recall.
Which could have been nothing more than a ploy by Maul to lull Sidious into a false sense of security, intending to strike at the opportune moment.
Now, how about the proof for their surprise?
I will get back to that response later, Neph. And I will point out your double standards, so if you don't want to look desperate in winning a debate like a lot of the other members on this forum, then here is your chance to go back over your last response to me, and maybe try to correct them, or you can wait for me to point them out to you.
BTW, it's going to be my last response.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well his chestplate has nothing to do with his internal circuitry respirating systems either. Unless you mean purely in terms of access to it. In which case:
Yes, that's what I mean. SK attacked an area that is much closer to Vader's respirating Systems with the full brunt of his lightning, whereas Palpatine didn't manage to attack Vader with the full brunt of his lightning, yet Palpatine still managed to do far more damage to Vader than SK did. That seems to suggest that Palpatine's lightning is quite a bit more potent than SK's, considering that SK was fully targeting an area that is much more closer to Vader's respirating system. So while you might be right about Palpatine gaining some access to Vader's systems, he couldn't target that opening with the full brunt of his power.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that the scripts says that he 'recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY'. Recovering =/= a desperate attack.
Palpatine recovers with a blast of energy. Logically, the initial attack was a desperate one, as he had almost fallen off the edge and dropped his saber, and was at risk of Yoda cutting him to pieces. Given Yoda's speed, Palpatine would barely even have time to think, so yes, the attack was an in the split of the moment reaction, as I said.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And Yoda continuously deals with that attack, not only in the split second that you suggest Palpatine was not at full power. The script itself notes that Palpatine 'recovers' and yet that 'The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor.' Begin as in they weren't previously, indicating that Yoda was in fact dealing with Palpatines lightning better as the attack continued.
Can you point out how long it took before the lightning began to arc back on Sidious? Of course the lightning would have to connect with the saber before it "begins" to arc back on Palpatine, the same way it did with Mace. Mace was deflecting Sidious lightning for about a second before they started to arc back on Palpatine, but yet Mace wasn't dealing with the attack better as it continued. Please stop being intentionally stupid.
Originally posted by Nephthys
In their fight, Caedus managed to surprise Luke by using TK against him instead of the force lightning Luke was expecting. Its entirely possible that such a thing occurred here. In fact its rather logical, Sidious had previously failed to overwhelm him with his lightning and was at the time using TK against him.
Damn, you're just switching to so many different explanations, without any evidents to back them up lol, which is something you are accusing me of doing. Double standards.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And if he was expecting a lightning attack, why hold his lightsaber to the side, in the one place that it couldn't be used to protect his body from lightning? Why even have his lightsaber out at all if he's sooooo much better at blocking lightning with his hands. You yourself argue: 'It's standard for a jedi to have their sabers out if they are about to engage in a saber duel, or if it's the only way they can block energy attacks.' So isn't that a bit of a contradiction?
You're desperately grasping at straws, aren't you? Does it matter where he holds his saber, when a force user can draw the energy to the blade? You act as if holding the blade in front of him covers his entire body. It doesn't, which is why jedi have to draw the bolts onto their saber.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Any actual proof to support this theory? There is clearly an element of strength involved yet also clearly just as much an element of force use. In DoE Zannah chooses whether she wants to absorb Bane's lightning or 'slap aside the violet bolts of lightning rather than trying to absorb them'. There is clearly the ability to choose here, indicating conscious force use, indicating that it isn't as simple as holding up a lightsaber and using strength to resist it.
Yes there is an element of force use. It takes a force user to draw/absorb the bolts onto the saber, but managing to hold on to your saber after the bolts are directed to it, depends on your strength and/or how strong the lightning is.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, 'strength' can just as easily refer to force strength as to strength of arms.
Yeah, force enhanced physical strength. Unless you're suggesting that Windu was referring to his TK, but that wouldn't make much sense now would it?
Originally posted by Nephthys
BTW, in Rule of Two and Dynasty of Evil blocking lightning is described as thus, 'and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and [b]absorb the bolts of dark side energy' and 'The woman countered by catching the bolt with one of her lightsaber blades. It absorbed the energy, emitting the strange, high-pitched hum Serra had heard earlier.' What exactly is the difference between absorbing into and onto? 🙄[/B]
So now you don't know the difference between into and onto?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, his arm gets thrown back in a jerky motion by the impact of the bolt. Him dealing with the second attack is probably because he was better amping his strength to deal with the impact.
Probably, huh? lol
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except to save on energy. As I've said Ataru is extremely effort intensive to use and even more so for Yoda who because of his weak physicality must boost himself considerable and expend great energy to keep up and excel. Its only logical that he wouldn't be constantly boosting himself in battle when he doesn't actually need to to save on energy.
He was in the middle of combat. He was leaping around from pod to pod. He knew that Sidious was capable of blasting lightning at him, which causes a forceful impact.
There is no reason to assume Yoda was no longer using the force to enhance his physicality. Evidently, he was; he sure wasn't the Yoda we see struggling to walk.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not true. Despite clearly putting more effort into it, he was still forced back by it physically.
He stepped back ONCE, which hardly compares to stumbling backwards, almost losing his balance. He kept better balance when he was absorbing the lightning with his hands, despite the fact that Palpatine was closing in on him, and was too putting more effort into it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You haven't offered me a single shred of evidence throughout this entire debate. The only reason why I'm still bothering to respond to your half-baked nonsense is because I've got nothing better to do while I wait for axel to actually debate with me.
I've offered far more evidents to my argument than you have, that much is clear. You are continuously using double standards and accusing me of the same exact shit you are doing. The fact that you keep switching to so many different explanations as to why Yoda could not hold on to his saber the second time, is quite obvious that you do not have direct proof for your argument. First, you claim that Yoda was taken by surprise, but I countered that and showed you how stupid that suggestion was. Second, you claim that Yoda was tired, but then that contradicted your argument that using a saber is easier, and that using the force to absorb the lightning does not reduce the physical impact. Third, you claim that Yoda was no longer enhancing his physicality, but I countered that one as well, and showed you how stupid that suggestion was. Fourth, you claim that Yoda may have been expecting a TK attack attack instead of a lightning attack, which wouldn't make much of a difference, as he was likely prepared for either since he knew Sidious was disarmed. What you are doing, is trying to make sense of the fight to favor your arguments, which is no different than what I'm doing, except none of your explanations make any sense, and have all been countered.
You expect me no go by your explanation of the fight, and imply that it is more logical than mine, but it isn't, because, logically, Yoda would not retreat to another senate pod if he was on the verge of winning, especially after such an intense battle when the fate of the galaxy was at stake and not having much time to waste. So I provided an explanation, that Yoda likely retreated because he didn't have faith in holding on to his saber much longer to continue his counter-attack on Sidious. And your response to that was "no because the script said Sidious looked doomed," which is irrelevent if Yoda could not follow through with the counter-attack. There's a reason he retreated, Neph. You're expecting me to give you direct proof for my explanation, when you can't even give me direct proof to any of your numerous explanations, but yet you expect me to take your explanations as canon fact. At least my explanation makes sense and is logical, whereas all of yours are completely retarded.
I'll get to the rest later. But as for this argument regarding Yoda vs Sidious, I'm done with it. I'll respond to the Palpatine's lightning vs Vitiate's lightning maybe later tonight.
Originally posted by Nephthys
According to the ultimate visual guide, blocking Force Lightning with your hands is nearly impossible.
It is nearly impossible because it requires a certain level of power and mastery, which is why only the most powerful jedi master's are capable doing it, which is also stated in the UVG.
Originally posted by Nephthys
If this is true, why did Yoda have his hands on his cane instead of at the ready to block force attacks. Everything in that scene points of Yoda being retardedly at ease. He didn't have his lightsaber out, didn't have his hands in a position ready to block and was speaking lightly and arrogantly. Its hardly a stretch to say that he didn't have his force defenses up as well.
Well until you can prove it then you have no case. Like I said, he was there to confront a sith lord whose powers rivaled his own, and since it is the standard thing to do for a force user to have their force defense up when they are prepared to engage another force user, the burden of proof is on you to prove that Yoda randomly decided not to put up his force defenses.
Also, why would Yoda put his hand in front of him if he wasn't trying to deflect Sidious' lightning? He pretty much does the same thing in the novel except he managed to deflect the initial attack and redirected it to royal guards, but then was overpowered by Sidious' second attack, whereas in the movie, Yoda was overpowered by the first attack, and that's the only contradiction besides redirecting it towards the guards.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I could just as easily turn this around and replace saber with 'force defense'. It is just as stupid because Yoda has no idea of his capabilities. Not having his lightsaber out leaves him right open to Sidious rushing him.
Sidious was sitting down at a good distance from Yoda, and didn't even have his own lightsaber out. Yoda can whip his saber out just as fast as Sidious can get up out of his chair and whip his out, perhaps even faster, you know, since he's already standing. But having his force defenses lowered, would leave him open to all kinds of force attacks. So, again: Yoda was more at a risk of being attacked with the force.
Hell, even after he gets back on his feet after being attacked by Palpatine's lightning, Yoda still didn't immetiately his lightsaber out, so are you going to argue that he still had his defenses lowered?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof that the attack 'waned'?
In the very next panel, we see that lightning is no longer coming from Sidious hands, and we see the charred bones of the prophets laying there.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiates feat taking place on a nexus is irrelevent.
Oh, ok. Because it's Vitiate, huh?
Originally posted by Nephthys
I said that it suggests. Which it does. However I don't make canon, do I? I also argued how the fight can be seen to be efforless on Vitiates part.
LMAO, what?
Originally posted by Nephthys
More powerful than them put together? Don't be ridiculous. Plus he wasn't blocking him.
Vader's raw strength in the force Rival's Vitiate's own, so how do you figure that they together are more powerful than Vader? Give me some feats of theirs that would suggest they are more powerful than Vader.
And you don't have to block lightning to actively resist it. It was the will of the force that Anakin destroyed Sidious. And I believe The Unifying Force says that Anakin had entered a oneness with the force in order to destroy Sidious, and yet he was only able to resist Palpatine's lightning long enough to throw him into the reactor shaft before collapsing to the floor, despite the fact that Sidious couldn't even attack him with the full brunt of his lightning. So yes, I'd say that is more impressive than what Vitiate's lightning has done.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well Sidious took Maul and Savage by surprise and merely pinned them for a few seconds.
Sidious was in attack mode the moment he entered the room; he force throttles the guards. He accuses Maul of trying to deceive him, and Savage gives the expression that he clearly did not trust Sidious. There's no reason to assume they were taken by surprise. We also later see Sidious easily force pulling them from the balcony as he was falling. Were they taken by surprise then too? I mean...they had their sabers out lol.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And 4 is twice as many as 2 last time I checked. Finally, Sidious used TK to do that, not Force Lightning.
I wasn't comparing Sidious TK attack on the brothers to Vitiate's lightning. Pay attention:
Maul has consistently ragdolled Obi Wan with the force; has TK'd a space shuttle; has collapsed cave ceilings and tunnels. Savage has floored Anakin + Obi Wan + several battle droids with a force wave; has thrown both Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously with a force push; has, in a fit of rage, force choked and levitated both Dooku and Ventress simultaneously; has TK'd a space shuttle; has broke out of a jail cell with a force wave. All of these feats of Maul and Savage are impressive, and suggest they they are very powerful force users. Well Sidious easily overpowered both of them simultaneously with the force, and held them pinned to a wall despite their efforts to break free. Yoda is a rival to Sidious in force power, and has even put Sidious on his ass via the force.
Yes Yoda is more powerful than the strike team, until you can prove otherwise. There's no way Vitiate can effortlessly take Yoda out.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually its 'strongest, most powerful and most resolute.' And no, I'm not going to do that. I've done that ****ing tons of times. I refuse to do it again.
No, you haven't, and if you did, then surely you can post a link to the page or at least copy and paste, because all I've seen from you was a list of opponents that HoT defeated, which lacked any context on how he defeated them.
Originally posted by Nephthys
So you rate a half-hearted Yoda who wasn't taking his opponent seriously, who may or may not have had his defenses up, who may have been surprised or only able to mount a token defense.... over 4 of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy at the same time.
Yup considering that powerful force users have shown to be able to resist lightning without knowing how to deflect or absorb it (Anakin resisted Dooku's lightning for some time before being knocked unconscious, and it seemingly took Dooku a lot of effort), and yet not only did Palpatine's very short blast of lightning manage to overpower Yoda's attempt to deflect it, but ot also managed knock him unconscious instantly in the process. Yoda, one of the most powerful force users in hystory, could not even resist a very short blast of lightning from Sidious. So if Sidious managed to do that to Yoda, I see no reason why he couldn't overpower 4 featless wonders.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof that Sidious only stopped because he pretended to be weak? I mean, he was getting his face melted.
George Lucas said Sidious pretended to lose his powers and be weak. SMH
Originally posted by Nephthys
can you at least admit that its nearly as powerful as Sidious'?
I'm actually the one who said that they may be rivals as far as force lightning, just that I'd argue that Palpatine's is stronger, and I provided my reasons.
Originally posted by Nephthys
If so, the comparative ease with which Revan and the HoT blocked it does indeed indicate that they are immensely strong individuals. Right?
Right. But I've seen nothing from them to suggest that they are as strong as Yoda or Windu. You implied that they are based on the fact that they have casually handled Vitiate's lightning, which you claim to be more powerful that Palpatine's, but yet you have not proved it. So if you can't prove that Vitiate's lightning is stronger, then how the hell can you prove that they are stronger?
Originally posted by Nephthys
So? He was still ****ing exhausted.
And they were on a dark side nexus, which is canonically proven to diminish a light sider's power, whereas it enhances a dark sider's. So HoT was at a disadvantage as well.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Whaaa? No he wasn't about to die. He was walking around and talking just fine. Theres no indication of weakness of his part.
He died not too long after.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No. I'm offering different arguments because you're so goddamn stubborn that you just won't accept my actual arguments. So I'm offering you ones in the hopes that you'll actually listen for once. Otherwise theres no point in continuing the arguement. I've made my case, you just aren't listening to it. Theres only so many times I can say the same argument to you.
Switching stances in order to convince me, doesn't make you right, all it does is prove that you are unsure of your own argument, and that you're wanting to force your opinion on me. Point is, you haven't proven that Vitiate's lightning is more powerful than Palpatine's, but you want me to accept it as fact anyway.
TBH, I think you're more impressed by Vitiate's lightning because of it's visual display. It looks fancy.
S66 of course Yoda was taken by surprise by that initial attack of Palpatine's. If he wasn't he would have blocked it in time. Just like he was doing at the end of the fight.
If he was ready the first time, then what changed the second time?
The only logical explanation is he must have been caught off guard the first time. There's just no other way to explain it.