Star Wars: Rebels!

Originally posted by ares834
And Luke didn't even want to fight... The fight was, BTW, competitive before that. With Luke holding the advantage and managing to kick Vader down the stairs.

Yes but they were goading Luke into fighting. Making him unleash his anger. He only began fighting when he was p***ed. And that's when he kicked Vader down the stairs after fighting round in circles for a while.

Of course we've seen enough Lightsaber fights to know kicking someone and/or flooring them isn't the all and end all. Vader still had his weapon, and was still combat capable.

Originally posted by ares834
Maybe you missed it but Luke didn't have his lightsaber on him at the time. Jedi restraint does, however, tend to stop people from going force unleashed on people.

Don't buy that at all. If Luke's willing to choke the Gamorrean guards, then he's willing to bash in a Rancor. In fact he Did kill it without hesitation. We've seen big force feats from Jedi in TCW. They'll do it if it's a life or death situation and they're capable of it.

Same with the scout troopers. They ended up killing them anyway. Tossing them off the speeder bikes with Tk would have actually been less lethal.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes. Which implies a face to face confrontation. After all, he isn't merely saying to beware the dark side but to beware Palpatine's power. And indeed, Palpatine powers are almost Luke's undoing as he comes ridiculously close to the dark side.

Yes but he didn't tell him to go seek the Emperor for a face to face confrontation. He knew Vader and the Emperor were going to try and sway him to the dark side. That's what he was warning him about.

Originally posted by ares834
Except that's not what they were training him for. They were training Luke to "confront Vader" and to "conquer" him and the Emperor.

Because obviously he's not going to do any of that without getting trained.

I've already said he could "challenge" Vader and would have a shot at beating him in a confrontation, much the same way TCW Movie Anakin was challenging Count Dooku, and floored him at one point. Doesn't make them Equals.

Conquering the Emperor wasn't something Yoda told Luke to go do right now. It could have been 5-10 years down the line. And as I've already explained, there are other ways to Conquer other than just beating someone in a Saber match up. If Luke lead the attack to destroy the 2nd Death Star with Palpatine on board then that would also be "Conquering" him.

Fact is Luke was just Knighted. So there's no reason to believe he's better than Anakin was in TCW Movie, as Anakin's training was also complete by that point. Difference being if anyone had more force potential, it would actually be Anakin. Luke being a prodigy just means he got to that level of skill and competence a lot quicker than Anakin. But that doesn't change the fact that his skill set was at the level of a newly trained Knight.

Lol

So much reaching.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes but they were goading Luke into fighting. Making him unleash his anger. He only began fighting when he was p***ed. And that's when he kicked Vader down the stairs after fighting round in circles for a while.

Of course we've seen enough Lightsaber fights to know kicking someone and/or flooring them isn't the all and end all. Vader still had his weapon, and was still combat capable.

And the script says Luke holds the advantage…

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Don't buy that at all. If Luke's willing to choke the Gamorrean guards, then he's willing to bash in a Rancor. In fact he Did kill it without hesitation. We've seen big force feats from Jedi in TCW. They'll do it if it's a life or death situation and they're capable of it.

Same with the scout troopers. They ended up killing them anyway. Tossing them off the speeder bikes with Tk would have actually been less lethal.

Nope. Plus if you’re going to look through the movies wondering why they didn’t use the force at such and such moment you’re going to find a lot of holes.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes but he didn't tell him to go seek the Emperor for a face to face confrontation. He knew Vader and the Emperor were going to try and sway him to the dark side. That's what he was warning him about.

He was warning him about the Emperor not Vader at this point. Which, yes, would signify a face to face confrontation with Palpatine.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Fact is Luke was just Knighted. So there's no reason to believe he's better than Anakin was in TCW Movie, as Anakin's training was also complete by that point. Difference being if anyone had more force potential, it would actually be Anakin. Luke being a prodigy just means he got to that level of skill and competence a lot quicker than Anakin. But that doesn't change the fact that his skill set was at the level of a newly trained Knight.

Which explains why he was able to defeat Vader, right?

Fact is, Luke is that good.

Alright, this isn't a vs. thread guys. Let's bring it back to the show.

Originally posted by ares834
Lol

So much reaching.

No not at all. What's reaching is completely dismissing Lucas's audio commentary tbh. And claiming Luke was a challenge for Sidious when he got completely stomped by him. It was obviously a non-fight.

Originally posted by ares834
And the script says Luke holds the advantage…

In the Pure Saber match, in which Luke was goaded into getting enraged? Sure.

Besides "Advantage" hardly spells "he's clearly better!"

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Plus if you’re going to look through the movies wondering why they didn’t use the force at such and such moment you’re going to find a lot of holes.

How many Jedi do we even see fighting who were Greater than Vader. Or Palpatine's equal Lol..

Yoda, Palpatine, Vader.. All these guys display Uber Force feats even in the OT. Luke? Not so much.

And with the plotholes you speak of, it's usually a choice of using your Saber or the Force. Luke didn't have his Saber against the Rancor. If there was ever a time to unleash his "Uber" force powers, that was it.

But meh... whatever.

Originally posted by ares834
He was warning him about the Emperor not Vader at this point. Which, yes, would signify a face to face confrontation with Palpatine.

Because he knows Palpatine is going to try to lure him to the Dark side!

Did he command Luke to go face the Emperor? Nope. He's just giving advise for when/if that happens.

Originally posted by ares834
Which explains why he was able to defeat Vader, right?

Lucky for kiddo Luke, Daddy was holding back on his Uber Force abilities.

Originally posted by ares834
Fact is, Luke is that good.

Clearly not. If it was a fact, Lucas would have confirmed as much. But he in fact confirmed Luke wasn't a match for him.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Alright, this isn't a vs. thread guys. Let's bring it back to the show.

Sorry just seen this after I posted. And having technical issues deleting my post. When I go to Edit, the page is blank.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Clearly not. If it was a fact, Lucas would have confirmed as much. But he in fact confirmed Luke wasn't a match for him.

Just for confirmation, do you have a source for Luke not being a match for Vader? And about the fight, we shouldn't forget that Vader was conflicted and therefore hindered, which is a big part of why he was redeemed in the end, so he wouldn't be performing at his best. In fact, the duel is in some ways similar to Obi Wan vs Anakin, in which the latter was fighting as equal with the former because he was "between worlds". There's no need for a quote about this, because it's self evident.

That's also why the people in charge of the continuity say that Vader's prime was during the Rebels era. In fact, they seem to hold Vader in high regard as far as combat skill and power go, whereas they are lowballing Luke. That's because Vader's emotional conflict hindered him.

And obviously, Vader had all the reason to hold back, since he wanted Luke as an apprentice, and he wouldn't find another with the latter's Force potential. So Vader not holding back doesn't make much sense actually.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
Just for confirmation, do you have a source for Luke not being a match for Vader? And about the fight, we shouldn't forget that Vader was conflicted and therefore hindered, which is a big part of why he was redeemed in the end, so he wouldn't be performing at his best. In fact, the duel is in some ways similar to Obi Wan vs Anakin, in which the latter was fighting as equal with the former because he was "between worlds". There's no need for a quote about this, because it's self evident.

That's also why the people in charge of the continuity say that Vader's prime was during the Rebels era. In fact, they seem to hold Vader in high regard as far as combat skill and power go, whereas they are lowballing Luke. That's because Vader's emotional conflict hindered him.

And obviously, Vader had all the reason to hold back, since he wanted Luke as an apprentice, and he wouldn't find another with the latter's Force potential. So Vader not holding back doesn't make much sense actually.

Exactly. Just because someone wins a Saber fight once, doesn't necessarily mean they're just plain better. Because there are different mind sets and different objectives involved with each fight.

So you need to see more than 1 fight between combatants to make those kind of definitive judgments IMO.

The quote from Lucas is here:

"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge.

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary - Scene where Luke visits Yoda.

I'm just not really seeing the half trained bit...I mean Yoda did say prior in ESB

"Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor."

Which...Luke did and Yoda said the only thing left for Luke to do was confront Vader to become a full Jedi Knight.

I could see the half trained bit if referring to the Emperor, but not for Vader.

I said bring this back to the show. Final warning.

Watched the first two episodes yesterday of the first season. It was decent but wasn't as good as clone wars. Very early on and I'm sure this will get better as clone wars definitely did.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Watched the first two episodes yesterday of the first season. It was decent but wasn't as good as clone wars. Very early on and I'm sure this will get better as clone wars definitely did.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I'm not expecting it, just...it's not just some kids show. It's Star Wars, plus it's not like there haven't been deaths in kid related media.

But anyway, I maybe just jumping the gun here, so we'll see what happens.

Star Wars - at least the movies and tv - has always been aimed at kids. I don't know anyone who is really into Star Wars who didn't first encounter it as a kid.

Originally posted by Ace Hambone
Star Wars - at least the movies and tv - has always been aimed at kids. I don't know anyone who is really into Star Wars who didn't first encounter it as a kid.

Right, but it's not just some regular kids show, it's more than that. It is for kids, but it's more too.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Right, but it's not just some regular kids show, it's more than that. It is for kids, but it's more too.

It's a family series.

But it was always primarily aimed at 12 year olds. Just so happens adults loved it just as much (if not more).

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's a family series.

But it was always primarily aimed at 12 year olds. Just so happens adults loved it just as much (if not more).

Right.

Hold up...folks, a thought occurs. Since the Rebels are wanted alive, do you think that they will pull a Sidious at some point with Vader?

By this I mean, the gloves come off when Vader gets the word to destroy them and the writers show why Vader is the most biggest and baddest Sith Lord?

Much like how Sidious done with the Maul brothers fight?

Think it's only Ahsoka whose wanted alive. But I might be wrong.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Think it's only Ahsoka whose wanted alive. But I might be wrong.

Nah Vader wants the Ghost crew alive too, can't remember if there was a reason though.

Even still, it still stands as an interesting question. Considering they did that sort of thing with Sidious, the "oh damn! We know this guy is the biggest badass!"

Which I guess they did do already in his 1st appearance, but I mean more when fatal consequences are concerned.

When is the next episode?

Originally posted by carthage
When is the next episode?

Sometime in fall..