I honestly don't get where people say Luke wasn't fully trained or whatever. Yoda says as such his training was pretty much complete, Vader confirms this, Palpatine notes how powerful he has become....so on and so forth.
It seems to stem from the short bit we see of Luke training with Yoda, that people think he had only like a weeks worth or training or days.
....That's entirely wrong, because that's just completely illogical, they aren't factoring in how long Luke was there which considering that the Falcon's hyperdrive was down, it would have taken Han and crew a long ass time to get from one star system to another, even Han says as such it would be a long trip.
Then the people aren't taking into account the passage of time before ROTJ, you clearly see that Luke has been training with the way he dealt with Jabba and the Sarlacc battle almost with casual ease.
This along with other context surrounding other scenes, which people fail to take into account when it's LITERALLY stated/shown right in the movie. Makes me think that people don't actually watch the movies..
I don't mind if casual people don't catch these, but if you're working on Star Wars material I would expect those people to catch onto the details.
^ Problem is it wasn't some random Lucasfilm employee who started this. Lucas himself started this line of thinking, saying ROTJ Luke was only half trained, and not good enough to compete against Vader yet.
People at Lucasfilm just seemed to have lowballed this line of thinking to new levels.
As for what the characters say, you can't take Vader and Palpatine's words at face value due to their manipulative natures. And Yoda never directly said Luke's training was complete, or that he was now a Jedi Knight.
In any case, even if Luke's training was complete, it's still not realistic for him to be a match for Vader straight away. I mean Anakin was Knighted before TCW Movie, yet still wasn't Dooku's equal (although he was clearly a decent challenge for Dooku at that point, but after 10+ years training under a Jedi mentor).
On the other side of the coin, I do agree that ROTJ as a film on it's own, does indicate Luke's training was complete, and that he was Vader's equal/superior. But in the larger context of All the Movies, TCW, Rebels and other Canon material, that doesn't make any sense.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Problem is it wasn't some random Lucasfilm employee who started this. Lucas himself started this line of thinking, saying ROTJ Luke was only half trained, and not good enough to compete against Vader yet.People at Lucasfilm just seemed to have lowballed this line of thinking to new levels.
As for what the characters say, you can't take Vader and Palpatine's words at face value due to their manipulative natures. And Yoda never directly said Luke's training was complete, or that he was now a Jedi Knight.
In any case, even if Luke's training was complete, it's still not realistic for him to be a match for Vader straight away. I mean Anakin was Knighted before TCW Movie, yet still wasn't Dooku's equal (although he was clearly a decent challenge for Dooku at that point, but after 10+ years training under a Jedi mentor).
On the other side of the coin, I do agree that ROTJ as a film on it's own, does indicate Luke's training was complete, and that he was Vader's equal/superior. But in the larger context of All the Movies, TCW, Rebels and other Canon material, that doesn't make any sense.
Savage Opress became a master duelist capable of temporarily holding off Anaakin and Obi Wan, as well as contending with Ventress, after something like 10 days of training. He also grew more powerful without training after leaving Dooku. Luke, being the son of the Chosen One, clearly has more talent than him, and had more or less the same training, and Vader certainly isn't far above the duelists I mentioned.
Of course, from a Canon only perspective, Vader was holding back massively, but that doesn't mean that Luke sucks.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Savage Opress became a master duelist capable of temporarily holding off Anaakin and Obi Wan, as well as contending with Ventress, after something like 10 days of training. He also grew more powerful without training after leaving Dooku. Luke, being the son of the Chosen One, clearly has more talent than him, and had more or less the same training, and Vader certainly isn't far above the duelists I mentioned.
Nah, Opress's biggest weakness was that he had no proper Jedi/Sith training.
His strengths were only his training as a warrior all his life (he came from a warrior clan), and his Massive Amp he gained from Nightsister magic.
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Of course, from a Canon only perspective, Vader was holding back massively, but that doesn't mean that Luke sucks.
Well a lot of people disagree that Vader was holding back even a little, let alone massively. And I can understand that (in Sabers at least). Because even if he was holding back, why would he let Luke kick him around and chop his hand off? Surely while holding back he could defend himself?
He might have however been holding back with his Tk (figuring choking Luke won't turn him to the darkside), whilst putting effort into the Saber fight.
I didn't say Luke sucks. But Freddy Prince did.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
On the other side of the coin, I do agree that ROTJ as a film on it's own, does indicate Luke's training was complete, and that he was Vader's equal/superior. But in the larger context of All the Movies, TCW, Rebels and other Canon material, that doesn't make any sense.
Sure it does. Luke was just that good. RotJ repeatedly eats us over the head with how powerful Luke has become. Sure, Luke isn’t as fast or strong or skilled as all these other duelists. But when you get right down to it, most of these other properties are mostly irrelevant. What truly matters is the Force. That’s the whole point of Yoda’s speech in ESB; the Force is far greater than the physical. And the Force is with Luke, guiding him, telling him where to strike, etc..
Originally posted by ares834
Better.And Anakin isn't Luke. So it's a moot point. Luke is just better.
Better than Vader and his decades of Force mastery?
You're right Anakin isn't Luke. Anakin was the Chosen One.
Personally I think if ROTJ Luke was > Vader, he shouldn't have dropped to the Emperor so ridiculously easily.
Anyway we seem to have one extreme to another in terms of Opinions on ROTJ Luke's combat prowess. So I hope the new canon addresses this soon, one way or the other.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Better than Vader and his decades of Force mastery?You're right Anakin isn't Luke. Anakin was the Chosen One.
Personally I think if ROTJ Luke was > Vader, he shouldn't have dropped to the Emperor so ridiculously easily.
Yes.
Indeed. And he had a higher potential. Unfortunately, he was nowhere near the prodigy Luke was.
Well Luke was caught off guard and was defenseless. But both Yoda and Vader seemed to think he was great enough to challenge Palpatine.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Problem is it wasn't some random Lucasfilm employee who started this. Lucas himself started this line of thinking, saying ROTJ Luke was only half trained, and not good enough to compete against Vader yet.
Yeah but it's not like Lucas hasn't changed his mind, plus it seems clear that through ROTJ Luke isn't just some half trained guy....like what does that even mean anyway? You go further into the EU/Legends, it actually shows how far he progresses and becomes quite powerful/strong.
Which Yoda, Sidious and Vader all 3 powerful Force Users take note of in the movie.
Originally posted by ares834
Yes.Indeed. And he had a higher potential. Unfortunately, he was nowhere near the prodigy Luke was.
Perhaps not. But he has many more years of formal training. That should easily make up for whatever kind of prodigy Luke is.
Which is why I can't see ROTJ Luke > ROTS Anakin.
And that's just talking about ROTS Anakin. Never mind Vader and his Decades of Force Mastery.
Originally posted by ares834
Well Luke was caught off guard and was defenseless.
Off guard? He had enough time to get On guard after the first shot.
And why's he defenseless? Are you not saying he has greater Force Powers than Vader?
Originally posted by ares834
But both Yoda and Vader seemed to think he was great enough to challenge Palpatine.
I don't believe either one of them said that he was ready to challenge Palpatine solo.
If they did, then that just proves they were wrong about Luke's combat prowess.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah but it's not like Lucas hasn't changed his mind, plus it seems clear that through ROTJ Luke isn't just some half trained guy....like what does that even mean anyway? You go further into the EU/Legends, it actually shows how far he progresses and becomes quite powerful/strong.Which Yoda, Sidious and Vader all 3 powerful Force Users take note of in the movie.
That was Lucas's stance Post Prequels.
Lucas always used to contradict EU/Legends.
Yes but being Strong/Powerful is different to being > Vader.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Perhaps not. But he has many more years of formal training. That should easily make up for whatever kind of prodigy Luke is.Which is why I can't see ROTJ Luke > ROTS Anakin.
And that's just talking about ROTS Anakin. Never mind Vader and his Decades of Force Mastery.
I don’t care about RotS Anakin. I’m arguing Vader. And considering Luke does end up handing him his ass, yeah I think it’s safe to say he is superior.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Off guard? He had enough time to get On guard after the first shot.And why's he defenseless? Are you not saying he has greater Force Powers than Vader?
He’s defenseless because he threw away his lightsaber…
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I don't believe either one of them said that he was ready to challenge Palpatine solo.If they did, then that just proves they were wrong about Luke's combat prowess.
Yoda did, “No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.”
Originally posted by ares834
I don’t care about RotS Anakin. I’m arguing Vader. And considering Luke does end up handing him his ass, yeah I think it’s safe to say he is superior.
You should care, because that's important in the Post-PT Context.
Yeah it seems Luke legitimately kicked Vader's ass if you just ignore the fact that Vader may have been holding back on his son. I mean he didn't once attack Luke with Tk. Just went a few Saber rounds with him.
Now if you want to argue Luke =/> Vader in a pure Saber match up, then that argument would have a lot more validity.
Originally posted by ares834
He’s defenseless because he threw away his lightsaber…
That shouldn't matter if he's legitimately more powerful than the likes of Vader or Dooku.
I mean Dude if he was really More Powerful than Vader(and ready to take on the Emperor 1 v 1) he should have Tk'd that Rancor around, and Tk Thrown those Scout troopers on the speeder bikes with ease.
Originally posted by ares834
Yoda did, “No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.”
Funny how he didn't say "So go get into a Saber fight with the Emperor now". (Which would actually be a dumb idea even if he could take beat Sidious in a Saber match).
Luke destroyed the Death Star after just starting his training. So he's been a big threat to the Emperor from day 1, and would clearly be a Much Bigger threat to the Empire and the Emperor by ROTJ. Doesn't mean he can go challenge Sidious to a 1 v 1 duel. A duel even Yoda lost.
Fact is Sidious put Luke down very easily. Whilst Vader saved him by absorbing all that Lightning that Luke could not. That's all the evidence we need that Luke wasn't as powerful as either Sidious or Vader yet, for the purposes of a Saber/TK fight at least.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Not saying that Luke > Vader, I'm just saying I don't see ROTJ as half trained.
👆
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You should care, because that's important in the Post-PT Context.Yeah it seems Luke legitimately kicked Vader's ass if you just ignore the fact that Vader may have been holding back on his son. I mean he didn't once attack Luke with Tk. Just went a few Saber rounds with him.
Now if you want to argue Luke =/> Vader in a pure Saber match up, then that argument would have a lot more validity.
That TK would have been damn useful when he was getting his ass kicked at the end of their duel. Yes, Vader was holding back for most of the duel. But so too was Luke and even still the script mentions that he has the advantage. And at the end, Vader was helpless against Luke's rage induced onslaught.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I mean Dude if he was really More Powerful than Vader(and ready to take on the Emperor 1 v 1) he should have Tk'd that Rancor around, and Tk Thrown those Scout troopers on the speeder bikes with ease.
Except he's a Jedi. Jedi restraint and all that. I mean he was nearly capable of lifting the X-Wing in EXB so most of that should be well within his capabilities as of RotJ.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Funny how he didn't say "So go get into a Saber fight with the Emperor now". (Which would actually be a dumb idea even if he could take beat Sidious in a Saber match).Luke destroyed the Death Star after just starting his training. So he's been a big threat to the Emperor from day 1, and would clearly be a Much Bigger threat to the Empire and the Emperor by ROTJ. Doesn't mean he can go challenge Sidious to a 1 v 1 duel. A duel even Yoda lost.
Except, that's what Yoda was training for him to do... He even warns Luke about Palpatine's power.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Fact is Sidious put Luke down very easily. Whilst Vader saved him by absorbing all that Lightning that Luke could not. That's all the evidence we need that Luke wasn't as powerful as either Sidious or Vader yet, for the purposes of a Saber/TK fight at least.
😂
What? Vader was "absorbing" the Emperor's bolts now? No.
Now I doubt that Luke was truly ready to challenge Palpatine. But he was more than ready to challenge Vader. And this is proven in the movie.
Originally posted by ares834
That TK would have been damn useful when he was getting his ass kicked at the end of their duel. Yes, Vader was holding back for most of the duel. But so too was Luke and even still the script mentions that he has the advantage. And at the end, Vader was helpless against Luke's rage induced onslaught.
And why's the Pre-Prequel script more Canon than the Post-Prequel Audio Commentary exactly?
Vader was goading Luke into giving into his rage. Bashing him with Tk would have achieved nothing for him. He wanted a "competitive" battle where Luke can give into his rage and try and kill Vader.
Originally posted by ares834
Except he's a Jedi. Jedi restraint and all that. I mean he was nearly capable of lifting the X-Wing in EXB so most of that should be well within his capabilities as of RotJ.
That Jedi restraint never stopped Obi-Wan cutting up that beast in AOTC. And it didn't stop Luke Force choking the Gamorrean Guards. Or cutting up all of Jabba's men. (Damn Luke was bad ass in Jedi).
Originally posted by ares834
Except, that's what Yoda was training for him to do... He even warns Luke about Palpatine's power.
So that he doesn't get seduced by the Dark Side: "Luke do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your Father's fate you will.."
Besides I've already stated how his piloting skills were a big threat to the Emperor and his Empire.
Plus Yoda knows Luke will get more Powerful over time.
Originally posted by ares834
Now I doubt that Luke was truly ready to challenge Palpatine.
Obviously. That idea's ridiculous as of ROTJ. Except perhaps in a space battle scenario.
Originally posted by ares834
But he was more than ready to challenge Vader. And this is proven in the movie.
Challenge? Yes. That doesn't make him Vader's equal. Vader was still the superior pilot and had far superior TK Mastery.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And why's the Pre-Prequel script more Canon than the Post-Prequel Audio Commentary exactly?Vader was goading Luke into giving into his rage. Bashing him with Tk would have achieved nothing for him. He wanted a "competitive" battle where Luke can give into his rage and try and kill Vader.
And Luke didn't even want to fight... The fight was, BTW, competitive before that. With Luke holding the advantage and managing to kick Vader down the stairs.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That Jedi restraint never stopped Obi-Wan cutting up that beast in AOTC. And it didn't stop Luke Force choking the Gamorrean Guards. Or cutting up all of Jabba's men. (Damn Luke was bad ass in Jedi).
Maybe you missed it but Luke didn't have his lightsaber on him at the time. Jedi restraint does, however, tend to stop people from going force unleashed on people.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
So that he doesn't get seduced by the Dark Side: "Luke do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your Father's fate you will.."
Yes. Which implies a face to face confrontation. After all, he isn't merely saying to beware the dark side but to beware Palpatine's power. And indeed, Palpatine powers are almost Luke's undoing as he comes ridiculously close to the dark side.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Besides I've already stated how his piloting skills were a big threat to the Emperor and his Empire.
Except that's not what they were training him for. They were training Luke to "confront Vader" and to "conquer" him and the Emperor.