DC's Hierarchy of Power

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Comic books' pseudo-secular take on Creation Myths, and approach at trying to resolve the simultaneous existence of different gods and pantheons and whatnot is pretty darn retarded imo.

Originally posted by operator616
[B]they don't exist:

spectre says that all creation myths can't be true, and tells the origins of the pantheons and elder gods

This is pretty much why I've adopted the model i spoke of. Looking at it that ways supports all statements made by all the various creation myths. One creation myth has the god wave, one speaks of Rama, one of the Presence etc etc. Since there are statements by those like PS admitting the presence had a hand in the creation of beings like the LOO and LOC ( without their knowledge) so that they in turn could cause creation the idea that their war caused the god wave which based on Zeus' own words in your scan supports all others ( and still answers the Spectre's question) all become correct it's just with the limited perspective of the one telling the tale.

I'm pretty sure in either Hellblaser of Lucifer Presence stated even he was created and referenced the primal monitor. Plus the recent appearance of Eclipso in JLA taking the power of the starheart ( after gaining Shade's help to possess Jade) and using it to cut the Presence off from his power by severing the link to the souls of Earth indicates pretty strongly that the Presence isn't the be all and end all in power. His power doesn't even extend over all the DC universe.

Originally posted by beatboks
This is pretty much why I've adopted the model i spoke of. Looking at it that ways supports all statements made by all the various creation myths. One creation myth has the god wave, one speaks of Rama, one of the Presence etc etc. Since there are statements by those like PS admitting the presence had a hand in the creation of beings like the LOO and LOC ( without their knowledge) so that they in turn could cause creation the idea that their war caused the god wave which based on Zeus' own words in your scan supports all others ( and still answers the Spectre's question) all become correct it's just with the limited perspective of the one telling the tale.

I'm pretty sure in either Hellblaser of Lucifer Presence stated even he was created and referenced the primal monitor. Plus the recent appearance of Eclipso in JLA taking the power of the starheart ( after gaining Shade's help to possess Jade) and using it to cut the Presence off from his power by severing the link to the souls of Earth indicates pretty strongly that the Presence isn't the be all and end all in power. His power doesn't even extend over all the DC universe.

the thing is , that each pantheon reinterprets the creation story in their own way, when in fact, there is only one true creation story, thus, making their creation stories mythical.

im assuming you are referring to lucifer #75 where presence said that he was shaped by forces external to him correct?

http://i.imgur.com/odEbG17.jpg

if you are, then it's certainly not the over monitor, since over monitor didn't appear until superman beyond when lucifer #75 was only written in 2006.

on a side note, i disliked presence's portrayal in that issue very much, because one of the most retarded things i ever heard is God merging with a being he himself created (lucifer) and transforming into a new being (taken from the same issue🙂

http://i.imgur.com/C0KGrdx.jpg

can you give me a scan or an issue reference? because if it's just statements i don't tend to believe them.

in JLA paradise lost, asmodel tried to usurp the presence, and was so confident that he stated several times he was going to do it, even called him a weakling several times.
But when it comes to actually doing it, he failed miserably:

JLA paradise lost issue #3:

http://i.imgur.com/t0rQjjc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KnJu0Sl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8M8ChD1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MiS1S84.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/T9eq2Og.jpg

notice that the presence didn't even appear on panel, he simply depowered asmodel and sent him into neron's realm.

another importand notification is Zauriel's statement, he says that
the presence is nowhere and everywhere, the rock beneath your feat and the air in your lungs, he's heaven and earth perhaps even hell itself.

this also proves that the presence has the power over all DCU.

And what is more ridiculous is that asmodel tried to usurp the presence only months after the events of jla paradise lost in day of judgment, of course to no avail.

sorry about the scans, i used links now.

Originally posted by operator616
on a side note, i disliked presence's portrayal in that issue very much, because one of the most retarded things i ever heard is God merging with a being he himself created (lucifer) and transforming into a new being (taken from the same issue🙂

http://i.imgur.com/C0KGrdx.jpg

This is commonly known as the omnipotence paradox. Perhaps the most frequent example is "can God create a rock so big, even he can't move it?"

In this case, God created a being that even he couldn't fully understand. That's one of the factors that makes Lucifer such a unique character. I, for one, loved that part.

Originally posted by Cogito
This is commonly known as the omnipotence paradox. Perhaps the most frequent example is "can God create a rock so big, even he can't move it?"

In this case, God created a being that even he couldn't fully understand. That's one of the factors that makes Lucifer such a unique character. I, for one, loved that part.

it has nothing to do with the omnipotence paradox, God cannot be transformed into another being, it's God.......
although i don't really believe in the omnipotence paradox, God can create a rock that he can't move if he wills it to (meaning he puts a limit on himself)

that's actually not the case here.

taken from the same issue (lucifer #75):

http://i.imgur.com/cr0FbRm.jpg

lucifer himself states that the presence made him that way and he's only testing his own workmanship.

Originally posted by operator616
although i don't really believe in the omnipotence paradox, God can create a rock that he can't move if he wills it to (meaning he puts a limit on himself)

It's not "Can God limit himself so that he cannot lift a rock?"
It's the "Can the limitless God, use his limitless power, to create something that he cannot lift?"

Originally posted by operator616
it has nothing to do with the omnipotence paradox, God cannot be transformed into another being, it's God.......
although i don't really believe in the omnipotence paradox, God can create a rock that he can't move if he wills it to (meaning he puts a limit on himself)

that's actually not the case here.

taken from the same issue (lucifer #75):

http://i.imgur.com/cr0FbRm.jpg

lucifer himself states that the presence made him that way and he's only testing his own workmanship.

Lucifer does say that, but the Presence's own words in the following panels would seem to suggest that's not the case

Lucifer
"What is my function then?"

God
"You escaped your function. That's exactly why I want to know you better."

can you give me a scan or an issue reference? because if it's just statements i don't tend to believe them.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2422903
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2422899
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2422899
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2422918

Originally posted by Philosophía
I don't think you really understand the Omnipotence paradox.

It's not "Can God limit himself so that he cannot lift a rock?"
It's the "Can the limitless God, use his limitless power, to create something that he cannot lift?"

it's not logical to ask that if he can use limitless power to create something he cannot lift, since if he does manage to create something he cannot lift, then he would be using limited power since he cannot lift it.

Originally posted by operator616
it's not logical to ask that if he can use limitless power to create something he cannot lift, since if he does manage to create something he cannot lift, then he would be using limited power since he cannot lift it.

If he has omnipotence, he should be able do to anything, including creating something that he cannot lift, but if he does so, then he is not omnipotent.

Originally posted by Cogito
Lucifer does say that, but the Presence's own words in the following panels would seem to suggest that's not the case

Lucifer
"What is my function then?"

God
"You escaped your function. That's exactly why I want to know you better."

no, the presence came to lucifer so that he can fulfill his last function (transform into 2 new beings) and when lucifer says no, he says that the presence is only testing his own workmanship since he's the one that made him like that. Though another questions comes here, as to why does the presence even bother to ask lucifer? why not just do it?

beatboks: yes, thanks for the scans.

Originally posted by operator616
no, the presence came to lucifer so that he can fulfill his last function (transform into 2 new beings) and when lucifer says no, he says that the presence is only testing his own workmanship since he's the one that made him like that. Though another questions comes here, as to why does the presence even bother to ask lucifer? why not just do it?

beatboks: yes, thanks for the scans.

Combining was not Lucifer's last function. God said it himself, as I already quoted. Lucifer escaped his function. Ergo, no last function.

As for why the he asked Lucifer's permission... I don't know, because he's not a dick?

Originally posted by Cogito
Combining was not Lucifer's last function. God said it himself, as I already quoted. Lucifer escaped his function. Ergo, no last function.

As for why the he asked Lucifer's permission... I don't know, because he's not a dick?

it was lucifer's last function and when he refused, he escaped his function.

im guessing it's because of free will........or like you said, maybe since he's not a dick.

Originally posted by operator616
it was lucifer's last function and when he refused, he escaped his function.

im guessing it's because of free will........or like you said, maybe since he's not a dick.

Lucifer escaped his function much earlier, before creating his own multiverse in the Void.

Lucifer possessed infinite will-- the literal will of God himself. Even an omniscient/all-knowing being cannot fully comprehend something truly infinite-- if he/she could, then it was never truly 'infinite' to begin with. Call it a paradox if it makes you feel better.

That said, Yahweh felt that the only way he could ever grasp the infinite power of will he'd vested in Lucifer was to merge with him. Simple.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer possessed infinite will-- the literal will of God himself. That said, even an omniscient/all-knowing being cannot fully comprehend something truly infinite-- if he/she could, then it was never truly 'infinite' to begin with. Call it a paradox if it makes you feel better.

That said, Yahweh felt that the only way he could ever grasp the infinite power of will he'd vested in Lucifer was to merge with him. Simple.

Indeed, Lucifer is or was an aspect of God from the beginning. 👆

Originally posted by Cogito
Lucifer escaped his function much earlier, before creating his own multiverse in the Void.

when he spoke to death of the endless (#26) he said that it wasn't of his own choosing. and he escaped his function even before he created the multiverse, when he rebelled against God, but that wasn't my point, regardless of when he escaped his function, he stated that this is how yahweh made him, he made him to say no, he made him to escape his function which is why yahweh said that he already escaped his function.

Originally posted by operator616
when he spoke to death of the endless (#26) he said that it wasn't of his own choosing. and he escaped his function even before he created the multiverse, when he rebelled against God, but that wasn't my point, regardless of when he escaped his function, he stated that this is how yahweh made him, he made him to say no, he made him to escape his function which is why yahweh said that he already escaped his function.

You're not making any sense. God made him to escape his function? No, not specifically, otherwise escaping his function would in fact be in line with his function. If God made him to escape his function, then not escaping his function would be escaping his function. You follow?

Yeah. Paradoxes.

Originally posted by Galan007

That said, Yahweh felt that the only way he could ever grasp the infinite power of will he'd vested in Lucifer was to merge with him. Simple.

there wasn't any mention of that, presence came to exchange memories and experiences and become two separate beings (not merge) each possessing both (of lucifer's and presence's) memories/experiences

http://i.imgur.com/uyKDpks.jpg

Originally posted by operator616
there wasn't any mention of that, presence came to exchange memories and experiences and become two separate beings (not merge) each possessing both (of lucifer's and presence's) memories/experiences

http://i.imgur.com/uyKDpks.jpg

He did indeed say it.

What is Lucifer? Lucifer is the embodiment of God's infinite will, just as Michael is the embodiment of God's infinite power.

And so when God said he wanted to understand Lucifer, he was saying he wanted to understand his own infinite will.