DC's Hierarchy of Power

Originally posted by Cogito
You're not making any sense. God made him to escape his function? No, not specifically, otherwise escaping his function would in fact be in line with his function. If God made him to escape his function, then not escaping his function would be escaping his function. You follow?

Yeah. Paradoxes.

what im saying is that lucifer says that the presence made him the way he is, to say no, and by saying no isn't he escaping his function?

but yeah, i get your point, if yahweh made him to escape his function then that's still part of the function that the presence planned since he made it that way.

yes it is a contradiction.

Originally posted by operator616
what im saying is that lucifer says that the presence made him the way he is, to say no, and by saying no isn't he escaping his function?

No?

Lucifer already escaped his function much earlier. I don't see why you want him to continue to escape at the end, when he already did.

Originally posted by Cogito
He did indeed say it.

What is Lucifer? Lucifer is the embodiment of God's infinite will, just as Michael is the embodiment of God's infinite power.

And so when God said he wanted to understand Lucifer, he was saying he wanted to understand his own infinite will.

Originally posted by Cogito
No?

Lucifer already escaped his function much earlier. I don't see why you want him to continue to escape at the end, when he already did.

that was a rhetorical question.....

you're not quite getting my point, im not even disagreeing with you.

i already agreed that there's a paradox there, since lucifer said that he always was the one who said no , and yet presence was the one who made him escape the function.
So basically like you said in your previous post, escaping his function would be in line with his function.

Originally posted by operator616
the thing is , that each pantheon reinterprets the creation story in their own way, when in fact, there is only one true creation story, thus, making their creation stories mythical.

im assuming you are referring to lucifer #75 where presence said that he was shaped by forces external to him correct?

http://i.imgur.com/odEbG17.jpg

but that's the nature of all scentient beings to see things and interperate them from their perspective. my father has a saying that I've always liked " there are three sides to every story, his, hers, and the truth. the truth is always somewhere in the middle because he will always see it his way and she will always see it her way". that's why at a crime scene police can get a dozen diferent discriptions of an assailant. often the perspective of the individual " seeing" the event can color or alter the their perception if it. For example when we have been through something that scared us greatly we will often remember the incident a s darker, larger or more imposing.

yeah that was the scan/ issue I was thinking of. Don't know why I thought it refered to Primal monitor. must be taking someone elses perspective presented in a debate as using that as evidence that Primal monitor created/ "shaped" Presence.

Originally posted by operator616
So basically like you said in your previous post, escaping his function would be in line with his function.

Except I said that wasn't his function...

Whatever.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer possessed infinite will-- the literal will of God himself. Even an omniscient/all-knowing being cannot fully comprehend something truly infinite-- if he/she could, then it was never truly 'infinite' to begin with. Call it a paradox if it makes you feel better.

That said, Yahweh felt that the only way he could ever grasp the infinite power of will he'd vested in Lucifer was to merge with him. Simple.

That said, I always felt that Yahweh was quite an incompetent Supreme Being, the way Carey portrayed him in the Lucifer series.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Nope.

Yahweh vested a will in Lucifer equal to his own-- infinite will. A will so great, in fact, that Yahweh actually succeeded in creating the aforementioned paradox-- he created a being that not even he could comprehend.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah. It's the same paradox that would arise if you were to ask: "Can God create a math problem so complex that he cannot solve it?"

Yahweh vested a will in Lucifer equal to his own-- infinite will. A will so great, in fact, that Yahweh actually succeeded in creating the aforementioned paradox-- he created a being that not even he could comprehend.

If Yahweh lacked the ability to create someone like Lucifer with a will equal to his own, then that would still imply that there is a limit to his power and intellectual capabilities. The "Accidental" God paradigm is being applied here. An "Essential" God would not have such constraints.

For the purposes of this discussion we are talking about an "Essential Omnipotent"-- we are talking about the God. This isn't some random 'flavor of the week' character who gained momentary godhood in Marvel or DC. In the comic world, the God is as high on the 'omnipotence scale' as a character can possibly be.

That said, the God succeeded in creating a paradox-- he created a being that not even he could fully comprehend(ie. Lucifer.) How did God do this? Because he vested in Lucifer his own infinite will, and an entirely separate sentience.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah. It's the same paradox that would arise if you were to ask: "Can God create a math problem so complex that he cannot solve it?"

Originally posted by 753
if he's omnipotent, he can both make a problem too difficult for him to solve and then solve it.

He had a way to solve it. It was merging with Lucifer, but he asked politely for permission beforehand and was denied.

im not quite understanding why yahweh couldn't grasp the concept of infinite if he himself is infinite and eternal

http://i.imgur.com/R5nBS5T.jpg

furthermore, the concept of accidental omnipotence doesn't apply on the presence since the presence has always been omnipotent, this concept would apply on someone like Thanos when he recieved the power of the heart of the infinite.

Beatboks: Point taken.

Originally posted by operator616
im not quite understanding why yahweh couldn't grasp the concept of infinite if he himself is infinite and eternal

http://i.imgur.com/R5nBS5T.jpg

furthermore, the concept of accidental omnipotence doesn't apply on the presence since the presence has always been omnipotent, this concept would apply on someone like Thanos when he recieved the power of the heart of the infinite.

Beatboks: Point taken.

Originally posted by Cogito
He had a way to solve it. It was merging with Lucifer, but he asked politely for permission beforehand and was denied.

Originally posted by Cogito
He had a way to solve it. It was merging with Lucifer, but he asked politely for permission beforehand and was denied.

Only because i find this discussion interesting - so going back to op, what would the ranking be according to all of u?

^agreed

1. Presence/GEB
2. Over monitor
3. the Source
4. Mxy
4. Synnar the demiurge
5. Lucifer/Michael
6. Pandora
7. Miracle Machine
8. COIE anti monitor
9. 5th dimensional imps/the cathexis
10. the endless/CA superman/mandrakk

that's not exactly accurate since it's off the top of my head, im interested in hearing other's opinions.

Wally the God Boy. 😛

BTW, you forgot the Quantum Mechanics. They're race trapped the 5-D Imps planet.

^good one. If you know anyone more feel free to contribute.

another extremely powerful race in DC are the trans:

JLA/spectre soul war #1:

spectre understands that they're dealing with something that doesn't exist on a physical level, it exists on a higher frequency, beyond time and space:

http://i.imgur.com/xBcUSqq.jpg

JLA/Spectre soul war #2:

then the JLA and spectre travel to the universe of consciousness (imaginal realm), just when they arrive their mere presence in this universe overwhelms them, even the spectre:

http://i.imgur.com/g0csIMe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uhUcJkO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/b12qW17.jpg

then they realize that the trans are actually the entire cosmos itself:

http://i.imgur.com/8GTC4eB.jpg

batman says that the trans fill his lungs with every breath, with every thought they choke his mind:

http://i.imgur.com/oJHioZE.jpg

then the totality of trans appears:

http://i.imgur.com/rMK2rAD.jpg

in the next scan we see the spectre imprisoned without any effort from the trans:

http://i.imgur.com/EBqmgMp.jpg

in the end batman, who was used as a plot device in this story arc, saving the league and the spectre more than once, managed to free the spectre, and along with MM they managed to repel the trans, notice that the trans say that they exist in all time and beyond time simultaneously, and that they already conquered the world in a distand future:

http://imgur.com/uZyJ2aX