Barsen'thor vs Count Dooku

-Jedi vs Sith - Essential Guide to The Force

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"

His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away.

"Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."

-Dark Rendezvous

Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy. Nemesis of the corrupt Republic, oriflamme of the principled Confederacy of Independent Systems, he is the very personification of shock and awe.

He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history [...]

-Revenge of the Sith

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is not about mine or anybody else's judgment; I am sticking to canonical description of characters in my debates.

Some characters actually have received "master of the Force" accolade in Star Wars encyclopedia(s). Dooku haven't received this kind of accolade in any canonical source.

Dooku is among the greatest legends and greatest losses for the Jedi Order but their is lot of room for creative liberties with the term "among the" involved.

I know this; novels tend to hype any noteworthy character a lot. Accolades given in Star Wars encyclopedia(s) is a big deal. Even the word "powerful" is a noteworthy accolade in a Star Wars encyclopedia.

Too bad encyclopedias and novels are the same level of canonicity. C-canon. So, yes it does have to do with your opinion.

He is decent over-all but not a "master of the Force" type individual. Yoda would qualify for this rank but Dooku wouldn't in a Star Wars encyclopedia.

I experienced this during my gameplay. The whole region shook as if a powerful earthquake have struck and it seemed like the Temple would fall apart; fortunately, environments in SWTOR are not destructible but it would have been fun to have this feature in the game regardless.

I think you are either lying or misinformed. Gameplay is non-canon.

There is no instance in lore of a Force user generating an Earthquake that you refer to. And it certainly wasn't generated by a knight-level Jedi.

He might just be talking about Forcequake.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol no.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Too bad encyclopedias and novels are the same level of canonicity. C-canon. So, yes it does have to do with your opinion.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So, you are trying to dictate what canon source we use. Sorry , no.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think you are either lying or misinformed. Gameplay is non-canon.

There is no instance in lore of a Force user generating an Earthquake that you refer to. And it certainly wasn't generated by a knight-level Jedi.

Here is description of this power: http://www.torhead.com/ability/gakL3P4/forcequake#screenshots;view:15610

I personally experienced this power during the gameplay and it is scary. Upon consulting other members, I found out that a player (of high level character) was possibly fooling around.

Besides, Bersen'thor have very potent capabilities as apparent from one of her feats in the first page of this thread and I am sure that by the end of her story arc, she is even more capable. Their are 45 more levels left for her, remember?

How many Jedi have earned the rank of Bersen'thor by the way?

In the nutshell, Dooku is outgunned in this contest. Dooku's FL ability is not even his strongest point; his TK abilities are, and he is seemingly outclassed even in TK contest here.

I believe its about 5 in the entire Jedi Orders history up until that point who had earned the title of Barsen'thor. An exclusive list to be sure.

Another feat for the Barsen'thor:

YouTube video

4.25. You're required to find a way through a blastdoor. To do so the Consular stabs some explosive barrels in order to, erm, blast through the door. That the Jedi took an explosion that can tear a hole in a blastdoor to the face is an impressive feat and indicates extremely high-caliber defensive abilities.

Also nice feat for Vivicar having all those psychic thralls running around.

CORRECTION, the feat above is at 9.30. I had to change videos. >_<

Correction x 2, the one in the game is the third Barsen'thor.

Anyway, I've completed Act 1 and thoroughly believe that the Barsen'thor wins. Despite being weakened severely through using the shielding technique on six Jedi Masters, she still is powerful enough to fight through Vivicars host of brainwashed Republic troops and defeat Lord Vivicar. Vivicar himself is

Spoiler:
actually a Jedi Knight possessed by the spirit of the Sith Lord Terrak Morrhage, a being powerful enough to drive 6 Jedi Knights insane.

If she can do that despite being massively weakened I can only conclude that a full strength Barsen'thor would beat Dooku to death with his own lightsaber hilt. 313wank

I can confirm that Vivicar was telling the truth about how many Jedi Masters he infected.

Frankly, I'm a little stunned.

(sorry about the triple post)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
-snip-

Bro...gameplay is non-canon. Force Quake does not shake down the entire temple. I play as a consular as my main in swtor. Vivcar is powerful, but honestly someone fighting through a Jedi Knight-level enemy is not that impressive. Especially considering that was with her saber.

Dooku also fought two nightsisters and Ventress blind and drugged. He won that fight through his force prowess. He defeated Savage through his force prowess, he defeated Kenobi and Skywalker with the same.

Dooku is a champ. And if this is a force only confrontation Barsen'thor doesn't have the feats to not get blasted and then force choked out by Dooku. And if you add sabers Dooku definitely stomps.

@Nephthys, It's actually only two others, he is the third. And while the title is awesome, it looses its prestige when the only other known Jedi to obtain it was a Padawan who did something honorable. It's basically people who are the ideal Jedi. Not necessarily and indicator of their power.

I won't lie, the Barsen'thor has considerable hype. But so does Dooku, and Dooku has 8+decades of experience as well.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bro...gameplay is non-canon. Force Quake does not shake down the entire temple. I play as a consular as my main in swtor. Vivcar is powerful, but honestly someone fighting through a Jedi Knight-level enemy is not that impressive. Especially considering that was with her saber.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku also fought two nightsisters and Ventress blind and drugged. He won that fight through his force prowess.

The label of "nightsister" doesn't proves much. And last time I checked, Ventress isn't renowned for her command in the Force.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He defeated Savage through his force prowess

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
he defeated Kenobi and Skywalker with the same.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku is a champ. And if this is a force only confrontation Barsen'thor doesn't have the feats to not get blasted and then force choked out by Dooku.

Beat this:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Finally found this feat:

Very impressive, and looks like it didn't take much effort. I mean christ, look how thick that door is.

This isn't the peak of Bersen'thor by the way.

Most importantly, Bersen'thor have defeated (more) impressive foes. Period.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And if you add sabers Dooku definitely stomps.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
@Nephthys, It's actually only two others, he is the third. And while the title is awesome, it looses its prestige when the only other known Jedi to obtain it was a Padawan who did something honorable. It's basically people who are the ideal Jedi. Not necessarily and indicator of their power.

I won't lie, the Barsen'thor has considerable hype. But so does Dooku, and Dooku has 8+decades of experience as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Regardless, Dooku have limitations since the duo of Savage and Ventress also pushed him to his limits.

Well he was sort of taken by surprise. (He didn't know Ventress was alive and Opress a traitor). Plus fighting 2 opponents in a cramped space.

But even still he was besting that duo and handling Opress with the Force, until Opress got Dooku in a surprise rage enhanced choke, which seemed to have weakened him.

Doesn't matter as he performed much better later in a more open space and against a superior duo whom he was prepared for: ROTS Kenobi and Skywalker.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In contrast, you know what Sidious did to the brothers, right? Now this is an example of "a master of the Force" level individual.

Well Sidious is just more powerful than Dooku.

But Dooku's handling of Kenobi was similar to the way Sidious handled Maul and Opress.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Vivcar is powerful, but honestly someone fighting through a Jedi Knight-level enemy is not that impressive. Especially considering that was with her saber.

Not sure if this is saying what I think it is, but Vivicar is far above Jedi Knight level. For one thing he's

Spoiler:
possessed by a Sith Lord

Not even talking about the half dozen Jedi Masters the Consular had already defeated by that point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he was sort of taken by surprise. (He didn't know Ventress was alive and Opress a traitor). Plus fighting 2 opponents in a cramped space.

But even still he was besting that duo and handling Opress with the Force, until Opress got Dooku in a surprise rage enhanced choke, which seemed to have weakened him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Doesn't matter as he performed much better later in a more open space and against a superior duo whom he was prepared for: ROTS Kenobi and Skywalker.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well Sidious is just more powerful than Dooku.

But Dooku's handling of Kenobi was similar to the way Sidious handled Maul and Opress.

Dooku is unfortunately outgunned in this duel. Bersen'thor is a new introduction so I understand that her capabilities and feats are not yet fully understood by many, but member (Nephthys) is doing a decent job in this thread.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I get the non-canon part but I pointed out my experience during my gameplay. Maybe the character involved was immensely powerful but we can drop this point for now.

Question is that how much trained and learned in the ways of the Force were these individuals during this time?

The label of "nightsister" doesn't proves much. And last time I checked, Ventress isn't renowned for her command in the Force.

She was able to Force Choke Kenobi and Skywalker at once. She's fairly formidable.

Really? Last time I checked, Savage forced him to retreat. The only reason for Savage lacking in performance was due to his inadequate grasp of ways of the Force.

You checked wrong. Dooku put Savage down with Force lighting time after time.

So? Both were young during this time. It became difficult for him to cope with Skywalker alone during the Clone Wars. Yes, I do believe that his fall on Invisible Hand is circumstantial to a certain degree because he was tasked to lure Anakin to the dark side rather attempt to overwhelm him but Anakin still was relatively superior duelist during this time at minimum (age was also on his side). Regardless, Dooku have limitations since the duo of Savage and Ventress also pushed him to his limits. In contrast, you know what Sidious did to the brothers, right? Now this is an example of "a master of the Force" level individual.

Pure PIS/CIS that Dooku didn't just put him down with the force everytime they met.

Seriously?

Beat this:

This isn't the peak of Bersen'thor by the way.

Most importantly, Bersen'thor have defeated (more) impressive foes. Period.

Dooku fought on par with Yoda, who is far more powerful than the Barsen'thor. The Barsen'thor is not more impressive than the greatest Grand Master in history.

Bersen'thor have more then hype on her side.

Sure, in a lightsaber duel. Which is irrelevent to this thread. In their fight Yoda blocked his Force attacks and thats it. Unlike the Barsen'thor, Yoda is unwilling to attack people with the Force. If he did though I doubt many of us would argue that he and Dooku are equal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, in a [b]lightsaber duel. Which is irrelevent to this thread. In their fight Yoda blocked his Force attacks and thats it. Unlike the Barsen'thor, Yoda is unwilling to attack people with the Force. If he did though I doubt many of us would argue that he and Dooku are equal. [/B]

Yoda...unwilling to attack?
"Destroy the Sith we must."
"Love you enough to kill you, I do."
Dooku was able to deflect his own reflected lightning rebound by Yoda, after the Grand Master reflected it back into his face.

'A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.'

- Yoda, Empire Strikes Back.

It always surprises me how often people forget about this quote.

Reflecting your own lightning is hardly impressive, given that its.... your own lightning. Its not like you can overpower yourself particularly easily.

Point is, Yoda never brought his Force power into play. If he wasn't such a ****ing pussy he could beat Dooku with the Force pretty easily imo.

And for the lightsabers its handwavable by him just being out of practice and shape.

facepalm

No one forgot the quote from TESB; you apparently forgot he issued that edict twenty years after the quotes provided by Mizukage_Yoda. Not a retcon, dumbass. 👆

And I'm pretty sure I recall Yoda ragdolling Sidious with impunity in ROTS. And just like that, your theory that Yoda never uses the Force offensively goes up in smoke. That's a better magic trick than the Joker's lame ass schtick with the pencil.

We argue what characters are capable of, not scripting the fight due to morals or PIS. Might as well say Yoda or Dooku will pwn Barsen'thor since he has to stop for a dialogue option before the fight begins.

Start using your head for something other than a seat cushion, Neph.

Aw, did baby break his bottle? Why so serious babe? Did you run out of David Boreanaz porn and now you're all cwanky (get it, like wank??)?

Did I say it was a retcon? I added that quote to explain why Yoda didn't attack Dooku in their fight. The explanation is perfectly plausible for Yoda's very real non-actions in that fight.

If by ragdolling you mean, 'pushed over a chair', then sure. But I mean, if thats Yoda going all out offensively something tells me his 'Most Powerful Jedi Evar' reputation is a tad laughable in hindsight. That can hardly be called an attack as much as a floppy glove-slap across the jowls.

I'm not scripting the fight you baboon, merely pointing out that Yoda canonically never attacked Dooku in their duel. After which I responded to Mizukage's tangential point about why Yoda didn't attack Dooku. In which he mentioned nothing to do with Yoda assaulting his opponents with the Force. Sure Yoda was trying to kill them both. With his lightsaber. When does he actually attempt to kill either using the Force? Never is when. Dooku 'drawing' with Yoda is completely irrelevent in this Force fightonly thread because Yoda never actually competed against Dooku. He merely blocked or redirected his attacks and moved on to the lightsaber duel. Ergo pointing it out is, forgive the pun, pointless here. Ergo you suck.

Start reading up what you're criticising before leaping in half-pantsed. Whatever happened to 'always cover thy ass' I wonder. Yours seems a tad chilly to me. tehe

Originally posted by Nephthys
Aw, did baby break his bottle? Why so serious babe? Did you run out of David Boreanaz porn and now you're all cwanky (get it, like wank??)?

That was an especially clumsy taunt, Neph. Remember, reciting lines from the Dark Knight is what historically reduces you to tears and tantrums, not me. 😂

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did I say it was a retcon? I added that quote to explain why Yoda [b]didn't attack Dooku in their fight. The explanation is perfectly plausible for Yoda's very real non-actions in that fight.

If by ragdolling you mean, 'pushed over a chair', then sure. But I mean, if thats Yoda going all out offensively something tells me his 'Most Powerful Jedi Evar' reputation is a tad laughable in hindsight. That can hardly be called an attack as much as a floppy glove-slap across the jowls.[/b]

Thank you for conceding the point. 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not scripting the fight you baboon, merely pointing out that Yoda [b]canonically never attacked Dooku in their duel. After which I responded to Mizukage's tangential point about why Yoda didn't attack Dooku. In which he mentioned nothing to do with Yoda assaulting his opponents with the Force. Sure Yoda was trying to kill them both. With his lightsaber. When does he actually attempt to kill either using the Force? Never is when.

Start reading up what you're criticising before leaping in half-pantsed. Whatever happened to 'always cover thy ass' I wonder. Yours seems a tad chilly to me. tehe [/B]

We already established that Yoda has indeed used the Force to attack his opponents, contrary to your dishonest argument.

It's tragic that you can't make a case even lying out your ass. Time to give it up, Neph.

I didn't concede shit. I don't acknowledge it as an actual attack. That would require harmful intent, which I'm not convinced Yoda had when he... pushed Sidious over a chair.

Perhaps he just wanted him to stop laughing.

Nope.

Give up what? Mizukage didn't even attempt to contradict me because however dishonest it may or may not be, my argument is unassailable fact.