DCNU Superman vs Masterson Thor

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
How exactly does being tricked into going into bloodlust mode supposed to handicap Superman? Unless you think that going all-out with his full arsenal of powers is supposed to weaken him?

When a character can't think clearly, and their combat effectiveness actually relies to an extent on that clear thinking, they are mentally compromised and can't be considered to be operating at full effectiveness.

Superman being half out of his mind with grief and rage doesn't put him at OWAW levels, etc.

He was dangerous, sure, and Wonder Woman did do well, but anyone trying to portray that Superman as being Superman at his most dangerous, either doesn't read the character, or is just lowballing tbh.

Originally posted by -Pr-
When a character can't think clearly, and their combat effectiveness actually relies to an extent on that clear thinking, they are mentally compromised and can't be considered to be operating at full effectiveness.

Superman being half out of his mind with grief and rage doesn't put him at OWAW levels, etc.

He was dangerous, sure, and Wonder Woman did do well, but anyone trying to portray that Superman as being Superman at his most dangerous, either doesn't read the character, or is just lowballing tbh.

Sure, because his most uber feats(pushing back Imperiex-powered warworld etc.) were performed in large part thanks to the considerable amp he got from his sundive. This showing with Wonderwoman does put him at DoS levels though, because that is pretty much what the showing is, both literally and figuratively, what with him seeing Diana as Doomsday and all.

It could very well be called "one of his" most dangerous iterations, otherwise anyone saying that DoS Superman isn't one of the most dangerous and stopped-holding-back-versions of Superman is either not reading clearly or just lowballing. /shrug

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You might as well start saying that every bloodlusted character isn't operating at full effectiveness then. Because by that logic, that is exactly what being bloodlusted does to the psyche of a character: it causes them to stop thinking clearly., and just acting on primal murderous animal instincts.

Sure, because his most uber feats(pushing back Imperiex-powered warworld etc.) were performed in large part thanks to the considerable amp he got from his sundive. This showing with Wonderwoman does put him at DoS levels though, because that is pretty much what the showing is, both literally and figuratively, what with him seeing Diana as Doomsday and all.

It could very well be called "one of his" most dangerous iterations, otherwise anyone saying that DoS Superman isn't one of the most dangerous and stopped-holding-back-versions of Superman is either not reading clearly or just lowballing. /shrug

DoS?

Originally posted by -Pr-
DoS?

You didn't know that?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Death of Superman.

You didn't know that?

I did, I just don't know how DoS at all applies to this thread. Unless I misread the OP or something.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I did, I just don't know how DoS at all applies to this thread. Unless I misread the OP or something.

How does it? Maybe I'm not understanding you in some way.

Originally posted by -Pr-
How does it? Maybe I'm not understanding you in some way.

Fighting Doomsday is not the same as fighting Diana though.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
How does it not? Because Clark [b]genuinely believing that a person(Diana) standing before him is Doomsday, and then unloading everything he has on said faux Doomsday, in the same mindset he had during DoS, is him being at DoS levels. [/B]

Oh, okay, I see now.

The problem is that, as Rucka himself stated:

“No, she never hits the same emotional level Kal is at in the fight, which is what helps to save her – Superman’s coming at her half out of his mind. He’s not fighting smart. She has to be smart all the way through it, and she’s Diana, so it’s very hard to make her loose her composure – which can be taken as something that’s good for Max…or bad."

Superman, as a character, is at his most effective when he's fighting smart. All of his best feats are when he's almost cold and/or emotionally removed from the situation. Even when he fought DOS, his mind was constantly working, trying to figure out how to beat the monster.

Was Superman dangerous in sacrifice? Sure. Was he more dangerous than his average portrayal? Definitely. Was he, though, as dangerous as he was when he fought the Elite, or during OWAW? No, not nearly imo.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Oh, okay, I see now.

The problem is that, as Rucka himself stated:

“No, she never hits the same emotional level Kal is at in the fight, which is what helps to save her – Superman’s coming at her half out of his mind. He’s not fighting smart. She has to be smart all the way through it, and she’s Diana, so it’s very hard to make her loose her composure – which can be taken as something that’s good for Max…or bad."

Superman, as a character, is at his most effective when he's fighting smart. All of his best feats are when he's almost cold and/or emotionally removed from the situation. Even when he fought DOS, his mind was constantly working, trying to figure out how to beat the monster.

Was Superman dangerous in sacrifice? Sure. Was he more dangerous than his average portrayal? Definitely. Was he, though, as dangerous as he was when he fought the Elite, or during OWAW? No, not nearly imo.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Oh, okay, I see now.

The problem is that, as Rucka himself stated:

“No, she never hits the same emotional level Kal is at in the fight, which is what helps to save her – Superman’s coming at her half out of his mind. He’s not fighting smart. She has to be smart all the way through it, and she’s Diana, so it’s very hard to make her loose her composure – which can be taken as something that’s good for Max…or bad."

Superman, as a character, is at his most effective when he's fighting smart. All of his best feats are when he's almost cold and/or emotionally removed from the situation. Even when he fought DOS, his mind was constantly working, trying to figure out how to beat the monster.

Was Superman dangerous in sacrifice? Sure. Was he more dangerous than his average portrayal? Definitely. Was he, though, as dangerous as he was when he fought the Elite, or during OWAW? No, not nearly imo.

Seeing how his mindset against Diana was more or less the same as when he fought Doomsday, I don't see why you'd say that he was fighting smart against Doomsday, trying to distinguish the 2 scenarios as if Superman was handicapped in one instance(Diana fight) and operating at full capacity in the other(DoS). When the only real difference here is that in one case Superman fought the real Doomsday, while in the other case he fought someone he truly believed was Doomsday. Which is what I have issue with.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the final fight with the Elite turn out to be staged? With all his robots having been secretly helping him out during the fight itself? As far as OWAW goes, already addressed that.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Fighting Doomsday is not the same as fighting Diana though.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Going all out against his opponent in both cases is the same though.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Of course he's not fighting smart, because he's bloodlusted. That doesn't mean however that his fighting capability has been reduced, because if it is, then we might as well start saying that the Silver Surfer that got one-shotted by Thor in Blood and Thunder wasn't fighting to the best of his ability, which takes away from Thor's feat, which is exactly what you are doing when you talk about Superman's encounter with Diana in that way.

Seeing how his mindset against Diana was more or less the same as when he fought Doomsday, I don't see why you'd say that he was fighting smart against Doomsday, trying to distinguish the 2 scenarios as if Superman was handicapped in one instance(Diana fight) and operating at full capacity in the other(DoS). When the only real difference here is that in one case Superman fought the real Doomsday, while in the other case he fought someone he [b]truly believed was Doomsday. Which is what I have issue with.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the final fight with the Elite turn out to be staged? With all his robots having been secretly helping him out during the fight itself? As far as OWAW goes, already addressed that. [/B]

That's not what I'm doing, and I don't regard it as the same thing. Being bloodlusted isn't the same thing, in my mind, because Superman wasn't just out for blood, he was being actively telepathically deceived. Not to mention that "bloodlust" is more of a detriment to Superman than it would be to say, Hulk or Wolverine.

I don't think the mindset was the same at all, and I think the comics support that. Like Rucka said, Superman was half out of his mind with grief. That didn't happen in DOS.

Are you thinking of the animated version?

Are we implying his power was lower or that he was just fighting not as skillful as he usually does against WW?

Because his power should have been at its height. He was just fighting like a brute. Not so far out of the way of his average, but definitely not as skillful as his "best"

👆

Originally posted by -Pr-
That's not what I'm doing, and I don't regard it as the same thing. Being bloodlusted isn't the same thing, in my mind, because Superman wasn't just out for blood, he was being actively telepathically deceived. Not to mention that "bloodlust" is more of a detriment to Superman than it would be to say, Hulk or Wolverine.

I don't think the mindset was the same at all, and I think the comics support that. Like Rucka said, Superman was half out of his mind with grief. That didn't happen in DOS.

Are you thinking of the animated version?

He was, in his mind, fighting Doomsday in both cases. Knowing the kind of destruction the monster has caused, and what it takes to stop him, and then not holding back his punches in both cases to beat down his opponnent, why would that imply that one case was him fighting "intelligently" and the other was him "mentally compromised"?

A friend of mine on cbr told me that the animated film was pretty much a rip-off of the comic. Did that staging bit get revealed in the end in the comic?

I went back to check the Superman/DD vs the Probes, and I realized for the first time after many viewings, that Doomsday was biting a Probes' leg.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Are we implying his power was lower or that he was just fighting not as skillful as he usually does against WW?

Because his power should have been at its height. He was just fighting like a brute. Not so far out of the way of his average, but definitely not as skillful as his "best"