Khan Noonien Singh vs. Yoda

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is simply the worst kind of argument possible. You're assuming Lucas feels there is a debate to be had. That isn't so. The VAST majority saw the movie and can tell EXACTLY what happened. They don't need Lucas commentary... script.. or book to know what happened. A five year old would look at the fight and go.. yup Mace won. Period. All the other sources make the argument over and done with. Make no mistake though.. there is very little debate about what happened in an overall context. The vast majority of the viewing audience knowns exactly what happened. Mace beat him.

Do you honestly think Lucas gives to shit about Sids apologist online who can't accept Sids losing and try and find any little thing to grasp onto so that it appears he didn't really lose? Only the battleboard nerds are the ones that try and contest what happens. Lucas doesn't give two shits about them. For all he cares it's already been decided and CLEAR so over multiple mediums even. To him, the matter is resolved. I no way does he need to, nor does he have to, nor does he probably feel like there is anything to debate. It was made CRYSTAL CLEAR.

Actually the official SW site clearly states it is debatable:

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Also for those who say there's clearly nothing to debate about the ending of the Sidious/Mace fight this is from the Official Star Wars website:

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-starwars-com-10-best-fights

@ 0:50-

"As Darth Sidious takes on one of the Jedi's best. The ending continues to be debated. Windu seems to have Sidious beaten, but was it all part of a bigger plan? Either way it doesn't end well for Mace."

^ As you can see it doesn't say if Palpatine was faking his End-Defeat or not. But it makes it clear it's up for debate.

Same video, Yoda vs Sidious:

@ 2:24

" The Battle of the Ultimate Masters featuring Furious Lightsaber combat And Awesome display of Force wizadry. It's a metting between arguably the 2 Most Powerful Beings in the Galaxy. And while Yoda holds his own he fails to defeat the Sith Lord."

That being said, I do believe Mace won the Saber fight (as per Lucas's comments). I just don't think Sidious was as helplessly defeated as he made out, after the Saber fight finished, (also as per Lucas's comments about Faking Weakness).

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If he answered it then there wouldn' t be this big of a disagreement and he would have clarified. You wanna know what else doesn't make sense. Why sidious went for the weaker Jedi when he showed he was fast enough to take all of them out.
Also sidious had a second saber so he could have easily pulled that out.

Prove he had it on him during that sequence.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let me ask you this, and I think I know why you've been avoiding the question.

If they truly wanted Palps to throw the fight and this was a big plot point... WHY NOT MENTION IT? You literally have no explanation for that. None. Think about it....

Why describe how mace figured out that he could beat Palps by breaking the window... letting the rain come in.. thus making Palps slow down the force speed boost he was receiving cause he was going to have to focus on maintaining balance on the wet floor. He perceived this through shatterpoint and acted on it. WHY go through this big long explanation on how he beat Palps... when in fact they believed Palps was throwing the fight. That makes ZERO logical sense that they would do that. Actually it makes less sense than zero why they would do that. Now explain to me why they would put that part in if there view was he threw the fight?

When you add the above with Lucas own commentary.. it's game set match bud.

The reason they don't or wouldn't say palpatine threw the fight because it's not the main focus. Look at everything that happened. At the end of the day Sidious won because who was thrown out the window? Who became the emperor? What happened to most of the Jedi? Did Darth Vader become Darth Vader? In the grand scheme of things deciding who won the fight is really insignificant due to all other events that happened. Who "defeated" yoda? So at the end of the day Sidious throwing the fight or windu winning legitimently is insignificant. I haven't avoided your questions.

You do understand how books work correct? Describing his plan is describing his plan, on how he planned on fighting palpatine, that doesn't translate to windu legitimently winning. Books go into far far greater details than movies and add in a variety of Inge to make the book interesting and to keep the reader on their toes. I would think this would be really simple to understand. Also in throwing the fight Sidious would have to fake lose. Windu wouldn't knew this he's thinking Sidious is trying to win, and the author keys on to how that would work.

Adding the commentary really doesn't tip the scales at all. Now while we are at it their are a few things you've been evading. If Sidious didn't throw the fight than why did he go for kolar and tin first instead of going for windu? He had the speed and was able to attack at least one before windu was Abel to successfully parry anything, so why go for the weaker ones and not the you know I leader who in this case is the best. Also the novel says Sidious was bending his share and windu was chocking on ozone from his own saber and didn't have the strength to fight his own saber. Why would Sidious just stop if he was faking weakness, if he wanted to kill windu at that point why stop, he had it. Also Sidious is canonically proven to have two saber sin ROTS why not take the second one out and continue with round two. Another question, why would Sidious, having windu at sword point not lunge for his heart? He was one inch away from his chest and windu was starring at him with surprise/fear on his face and Sidious never lunges. Also he never uses his force powers during the battle as of the movie and we have seen in all his other fights he uses his force powers with the exception of his battle with yoda however that was an entire battleground and you yourself have just stated that windu used shatterpoint to figure out Sidious would need to slow down. That shows windu isn't the better fighter and wa only able to do anything due to the environment. So it's yiou who really need to reconsider your stance on the matter.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He cleared it up so why would he need to come back to reiterate his point. He tried killing them all but was unsuccessful with Windu.

Prove he had it on him during that sequence.

If it was apparent then there wouldn't be this big of a debate. 😂 Again that raises the question of why go for the weaker Jedi if he could have killed windu just as easily if he won't for him first being the faster of all the other Jedi even windu.

We have already gone through this. Dave filoni has stated he had a second in ROTS and he had one during his battle with yoda and he is a confirmed from 6 specialist, in fact he's a confirmed master of all seven styles, so he would have great skill with jar Kai and would have a second blade.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is simply the worst kind of argument possible. You're assuming Lucas feels there is a debate to be had. That isn't so. The VAST majority saw the movie and can tell EXACTLY what happened. They don't need Lucas commentary... script.. or book to know what happened. A five year old would look at the fight and go.. yup Mace won. Period. All the other sources make the argument over and done with. Make no mistake though.. there is very little debate about what happened in an overall context. The vast majority of the viewing audience knowns exactly what happened. Mace beat him.

Do you honestly think Lucas gives to shit about Sids apologist online who can't accept Sids losing and try and find any little thing to grasp onto so that it appears he didn't really lose? Only the battleboard nerds are the ones that try and contest what happens. Lucas doesn't give two shits about them. For all he cares it's already been decided and CLEAR so over multiple mediums even. To him, the matter is resolved. I no way does he need to, nor does he have to, nor does he probably feel like there is anything to debate. It was made CRYSTAL CLEAR.

In conclusion your position is based on fallacy after fallacy, and not even good ones at that. You're coming from a position that is totally based on your conjecture, with no proof. I'm coming from a position with certifiable DEFINATIVE proof. They aren't even comparable. Think about it, your proof is, well if Lucas wanted it resolve the issue.. since he hasn't.. must me he's conflicted about it.... LMAO. It's just ludicrous what you're trying to bring to the table as proof. This has been decided already. You know that. Maybe you don't like it, but it has. Until Lucas comes out and DIRECTLY states he through the fight, it has to be considered Mace wining. I surely hope you can agree with that logic. That as it stands Mace beats SIds.. unless stated otherwise. If you disagree with that, then there's is little hope for you

First of all why do all of your comments start off with something border line belittleing. Personally Lucas doesn't really care. He made the movies and now he's retired in bliss. But to that your argument that's is just what I believe is a possibility. Well according to the poll in Quans thread for this topic, 14 people are on my Side of thinking while 8 are on yours whcih shows that a vast majority is not on your side. Also the vast majority of the world is possibly split as it has gained so much attention and debate it would show that this is a popular belief for the movie. If it were made crystal clear than there would not be this large debate. If a 5 year old saw that he/she wouldn't even be worried with that question, they would be so,concerned with the colors of the blades, and Sidious Lightning. 😂 Again if the vast majority believe this to be true there wouldn't be this large of a question of it. Also you don't look at the Sidious side, just your won which is being heavily biased.

Do you honestly thinks he gives two shits about windu bulldozers who don't look at entire scenes. Well the reason he wouldn't feel like is because he no longer owns the rights and he is enjoying his retirement and money. This paragraph is really you repeating the same thing over and over again being a rather annoying child about it. If it were all set and done there would not be this large argument. Stop being a biased child, look at all evidence, think about it, look at it from another person perspective, then move on with your life. You being a biased almost bully isn't helping you or anyone else, just making you look stupid.

In conclusion this entire post is based on you being biased. I've answered your questions now answer mine.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
If it was apparent then there wouldn't be this big of a debate. 😂 Again that raises the question of why go for the weaker Jedi if he could have killed windu just as easily if he won't for him first being the faster of all the other Jedi even windu.

We have already gone through this. Dave filoni has stated he had a second in ROTS and he had one during his battle with yoda and he is a confirmed from 6 specialist, in fact he's a confirmed master of all seven styles, so he would have great skill with jar Kai and would have a second blade.

Then prove it. All you do is speculate. Prove he had it on him. 😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Windu isn't as weak as the other Jedi. His attempts at windus life failed. Windu is greater than them.

Then prove it. All you do is speculate. Prove he had it on him. 😂

No that's not the point. The point is Sidious was goingall out from the start and showed in both the movie and the book he could have taken windu out first if he chose to as windu wasn't in vaapd yet, and he attacked kolar/tin before windu could react.

I've already proven to you. Just because you choose to ignore it, that's not my problem.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
No that's not the point. The point is Sidious was goingall out from the start and showed in both the movie and the book he could have taken windu out first if he chose to as windu wasn't in vaapd yet, and he attacked kolar/tin before windu could react.

I've already proven to you. Just because you choose to ignore it, that's not my problem.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Speculation. Windu won. Lucas agreed. Khan wins.

Your own opinion. We don't know his stance. Yoda just ragdolls him like normal.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Your own opinion. We don't know his stance. Yoda just ragdolls him like normal.

Originally posted by quanchi112
False. We know Lucas says Windu overcame him. Who does yoda defeat by ragdolling them ?

We know I he says that doesn't mean he agrees. He didn't take in all evidence at that point. What force user does Khan defeat?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
We know I he says that doesn't mean he agrees. He didn't take in all evidence at that point. What force user does Khan defeat?

Khan kills people by shooting them. He kills yoda by shooting him. Yoda doesn't defeat people by ragdolling them so you made up some shit because you're ignorant. 😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
He said it. Done.

Khan kills people by shooting them. He kills yoda by shooting him. Yoda doesn't defeat people by ragdolling them so you made up some shit because you're ignorant. 😂

Again doesn't end it as he never clarifies this just says what we see whcih doesn't take in all the aspects and factors do really incomplete.

So you're saying he can't ragdoll people even though we've seen peep below him do it? Shame, you lose just due to stupidity.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Again doesn't end it as he never clarifies this just says what we see whcih doesn't take in all the aspects and factors do really incomplete.

So you're saying he can't ragdoll people even though we've seen peep below him do it? Shame, you lose just due to stupidity.

He never defeated anyone by ragdolling them. Liar. Khan wins with one shot.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lucas said it. Undeniable.

He never defeated anyone by ragdolling them. Liar. Khan wins with one shot.

Again Lucas just described that 2 seconds not the entire battle so really not conclusively

So? Doesn't mean he can't. Idiot. That shot has to hit him and yoda is to fast.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Again Lucas just described that 2 seconds not the entire battle so really not conclusively

So? Doesn't mean he can't. Idiot. That shot has to hit him and yoda is to fast.

So you make shit up while I have evidence to back my claims.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He described the victory part. I agree.

So you make shit up while I have evidence to back my claims.

Good so we agree the answer is inconclusive.

So you agree yoda can ragdoll people. With that he wins 10/10.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Good so we agree the answer is inconclusive.

So you agree yoda can ragdoll people. With that he wins 10/10.

He does t ever win that way. Khan kills him, fantasy guy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, the answer is conclusive. Windus win.

He does t ever win that way. Khan kills him, fantasy guy.

No it's not due to not al, evidence being looked at.

So doesn't mean he can't. Its a skill in his arsenal that he can use is it not.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Speculation. Windu won. Lucas agreed.

Lucas never said he Windu "won".

And the Official Site is actually more Official than Lucas now, given that Lucas isn't in charge anymore. And the Official site makes it perfectly clear that Windu's "victory" is questionable. End of.

That said I don't agree with EmperorSidious that Sidious was holding back throughout the fight. And I do think Windu legitimately disarmed Sidious in that fight.

But "defeating" Sidious is a whole different thing to disarming him, as Yoda can tell you.