Khan Noonien Singh vs. Yoda

Originally posted by quanchi112
We have never seen him do so against someone as skilled as Khan. That's the point.

Skill level matters hence the point. M

Khan can shoot down Yoda. He has shown the accuracy while in battle to do so.

What is Khan's skill going to do?

Honest question. Do you mean Khan is so accurate that Yoda can't block? Is Khan so skilled at dodging he can react to his own shots being reflected? Or is he perhaps too skilled in ricocheting his shots to hit from any angle?

That's the problem with "skill," quan. You have to specify the skill or the word itself is too vague to mean anything. Yoda is skilled in reflecting his opponent's fire, and has done so to many targets in succession. See there? I specified the specific skill (reflecting shots) and gave a general level (multiple opponents.)

So I'll ask again: Can Khan do anything? If you want me to be more specific, how about: If Yoda reflects one of Khan's blasts, what can Khan do in response?

Originally posted by The Scenario
What is Khan's skill going to do?

Honest question. Do you mean Khan is so accurate that Yoda can't block? Is Khan so skilled at dodging he can react to his own shots being reflected? Or is he perhaps too skilled in ricocheting his shots to hit from any angle?

That's the problem with "skill," quan. You have to specify the skill or the word itself is too vague to mean anything. Yoda is skilled in reflecting his opponent's fire, and has done so to many targets in succession. See there? I specified the specific skill (reflecting shots) and gave a general level (multiple opponents.)

So I'll ask again: Can Khan do anything? If you want me to be more specific, how about: If Yoda reflects one of Khan's blasts, what can Khan do in response?

With many successive shots coming at once I don't see Yoda being able to deflect them in Khan's direction.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If skill level did not matter we would see Jango after annihilated by Jedi which was not the case. His gear is not as quick or as powerful as Khan's who had the benefit of aiming two guns at Yoda.

With many successive shots coming at once I don't see Yoda being able to deflect them in Khan's direction.

Not sure what you're saying here, it got a little jumbled. Didn't Jango get annihilated by a Jedi, though? In any case, you're still making the mistake of generalizing all Jedi. Maybe Yoda would have done it differently, it doesn't really matter what happened to Jango.

We've seen Yoda reflect shots and kill the shooters, from multiple directions. Yoda has proven he can deflect blasts like this. How would Khan counter?

Wow, ten whole pages pass while away. Anyways, back to my portion.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He does not dodge blaster fire. That is incorrect. He is just moving while guys are firing on Obi as well.

You don't show the entire scene though and who else the blasts are intended for.

Khan did kill every person he intended to kill. If he shoots an enemy and they fall or are pushed away not every blast will hit the person since the blasts already moved them.

We see Yoda backed up and not missed one time. He is at their mercy and works slowly and cooperatively with Yoda in order to do so.

Yoda has never reflected that many successive blasts together. He has deflected one single blast at a time and not every one.

I am afraid you are wrong. Within the time I marked there are at least two clones with blasters trying to target Yoda. One of those clones fires and his shot goes wide when Yoda leaps into the air. That is a miss.

The entire scene is there for all to see. You asked that I point out a specific point in the scene to give you evidence. That is what I have done. Why are you contesting what you yourself asked for?

The problem is he was intending to kill all the Klingons, as leaving any of them alive would affect his plans should they end up killing any of the Federation crew. So we see his intended targets, and we see him miss multiple times, not including shots going wide from a Klingon being shot down before. He has neither perfect aim, nor does he kill his targets after a round of fire. Again, this is evidence based on what you asked of me.

What we see is both Jedi being targeted by multiple opponent with multiple rapid firing weapons. If he were at their mercy, Yoda and Obi Wan would not have survived, yet both Jedi not only survive, but succeed in eliminating their opposition.

Only...he has. I just discussed it in my last point. You could literally look up from this sentence and see the evidence.

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Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You failed to answer it. You conceded.

Oh so now it is Scenario conspiring against you, despite the fact that he ALSO provided stills! 🙄

Still didn't attain perfect accuracy doing it, and Yoda also wiped out clone troopers that were all over the temple grounds.

And Khan was knocked out emphatically for hours by Spock, not to mention the force is a devastating weapon.

For the record, DS, I think you replied to the wrong person here. 😉

Originally posted by The Scenario
Not sure what you're saying here, it got a little jumbled. Didn't Jango get annihilated by a Jedi, though? In any case, you're still making the mistake of generalizing all Jedi. Maybe Yoda would have done it differently, it doesn't really matter what happened to Jango.

We've seen Yoda reflect shots and kill the shooters, from multiple directions. Yoda has proven he can deflect blasts like this. How would Khan counter?

We have seen him do so against inferior opponents. That's the point. Obi can take out clones but against Jango he did not look so great. That's the point.

There are too many successive blasts for Yoda to bend his saber and actually pull it off with more on the way.

Originally posted by XanatosForever
Wow, ten whole pages pass while away. Anyways, back to my portion.

I am afraid you are wrong. Within the time I marked there are at least two clones with blasters trying to target Yoda. One of those clones fires and his shot goes wide when Yoda leaps into the air. That is a miss.

The entire scene is there for all to see. You asked that I point out a specific point in the scene to give you evidence. That is what I have done. Why are you contesting what you yourself asked for?

The problem is he was intending to kill all the Klingons, as leaving any of them alive would affect his plans should they end up killing any of the Federation crew. So we see his intended targets, and we see him miss multiple times, not including shots going wide from a Klingon being shot down before. He has neither perfect aim, nor does he kill his targets after a round of fire. Again, this is evidence based on what you asked of me.

What we see is both Jedi being targeted by multiple opponent with multiple rapid firing weapons. If he were at their mercy, Yoda and Obi Wan would not have survived, yet both Jedi not only survive, but succeed in eliminating their opposition.

Only...he has. I just discussed it in my last point. You could literally look up from this sentence and see the evidence.

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We see every Klingon go down he intended for death. I also don't see him ever miss once and I've watched the clip multiple times.

The Jedi survive against being against a smaller group of lesser skilled opponents than even Jango since just he alone was enough to stalemate Obi himself.

You greatly exaggerate. Yoda has never went up against either of Khan's guns here or the rate at which the one fires in succession.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What time in the clip does this occur ?

We see every Klingon go down he intended for death. I also don't see him ever miss once and I've watched the clip multiple times.

The Jedi survive against being against a smaller group of lesser skilled opponents than even Jango since just he alone was enough to stalemate Obi himself.

You greatly exaggerate. Yoda has never went up against either of Khan's guns here or the rate at which the one fires in succession.

Follow the quote links, they will lead you right to my post marking times in the scene. It saves time against retreading old ground.

Considering every Klingon he intended for death includes all of them, even that statement is false due to the Federation crew's involvement. I have given you the times where he misses marked in seconds, how are you having trouble seeing them?

You seem to be having a bit of a grammar issue there. You are also bringing up other characters who are not in this debate at all. Digression, stay on topic, please.

On the contrary, I am presenting evidence with the resources provided to me to prove that Yoda can, and has, defended himself from rapid fire projectiles. Your argument has been he cannot. Now you are changing that argument to say that he cannot defend himself against Khan's weapons specifically. These two characters have never been placed in a canon scene, so there is no way to provide evidence. This leaves us with no way to determine one way or another who wins. Given this, are you admitting that, with the evidence provided, Yoda will be able to defend himself against Khan?

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Originally posted by XanatosForever
Follow the quote links, they will lead you right to my post marking times in the scene. It saves time against retreading old ground.

Considering every Klingon he intended for death includes all of them, even that statement is false due to the Federation crew's involvement. I have given you the times where he misses marked in seconds, how are you having trouble seeing them?

You seem to be having a bit of a grammar issue there. You are also bringing up other characters who are not in this debate at all. Digression, stay on topic, please.

On the contrary, I am presenting evidence with the resources provided to me to prove that Yoda can, and has, defended himself from rapid fire projectiles. Your argument has been he cannot. Now you are changing that argument to say that he cannot defend himself against Khan's weapons specifically. These two characters have never been placed in a canon scene, so there is no way to provide evidence. This leaves us with no way to determine one way or another who wins. Given this, are you admitting that, with the evidence provided, Yoda will be able to defend himself against Khan?

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I am bringing up other skilled characters as a point of reference to make a point. I am on topic, dear.

Yoda has against lesser skilled opponents, in a smaller group, and with the aid of a competent fighter who was not taken prisoner like say the Enterprise crew.

I don't think he can since Khan has one powerful gun and one quick firing gun coupled with his deadly accuracy/ruthless=win.

His deadly accuracy was disproven with onscreen evidence a few pages ago.

Originally posted by Lestov16
His deadly accuracy was disproven with onscreen evidence a few pages ago.

Actually he's right. Gifs and screenshots of Khan straight up missing several times. Not our fault you don't have the equipment to view it.

The evidence is already there, the burden is on you to watch it.

Originally posted by KingD19
Actually he's right. Gifs and screenshots of Khan straight up missing several times. Not our fault you don't have the equipment to view it.

The evidence is already there, the burden is on you to watch it.

Lol what? So the movie's a liar now? Because I clearly saw him miss several times on those gifs and screenshots.

Weren't you saying something about being honest in the other thread?

Originally posted by KingD19
Lol what? So the movie's a liar now? Because I clearly saw him miss several times on those gifs and screenshots.

Weren't you saying something about being honest in the other thread?

F*ck that noise. How bout you go back a dozen or so pages where it was posted and find it yourself. I'm not doing the work for you just so you can ignore it again.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, his equipment did not work and he eventually went down because of it against arguably the greatest Jedi on screen.

We have seen him do so against inferior opponents. That's the point. Obi can take out clones but against Jango he did not look so great. That's the point.

How is this relevant to Yoda again? You're trying to lowball Yoda based on things other people did. Why? You don't know that the same would have happened against Yoda. If you're going to point to screen feats, at least use feats from the character you're talking about.

There are too many successive blasts for Yoda to bend his saber and actually pull it off with more on the way.

Yoda has deflected more than Khan's maybe four shot bursts, and from multiple directions. Khan has never fought an opponent that can reflect his shots, how will his skill help? You still haven't answered that question.

Oh, and here's the quote you're asking for:

Originally posted by The Scenario
Oh, so someone beat me to this?

Oh well.

Here's one of Khan's blasts going over the Klingon's heads: http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/KhanMiss1_zps0153eac7.jpg

Next up, a .gif of Khan hitting a Klingon twice, but his third shot goes high: http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/khanmiss2_zps949f7cea.gif?t=1381012574
And in convenient .jpg format: http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/KhanMiss2_zpsd580bcc1.jpg

#3, Khan completely fails to hit this guy with several blasts: http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/khanmiss3_zpsc998846f.gif?t=1381012590
And the still image: http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/khanmiss3_zps961bfbc9.jpg

.gif of Khan missing 2 targets (the .gif doesn't show it, but the next shot does hit one of them after the initial miss): http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/khanmiss4_zps6a3837e8.gif?t=1381012574
Still version: http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/Khanmiss4_zps5d004907.jpg

Finally, Khan fails to hit 4 Klingons dropping in on lines: http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/khanmiss5_zpsbaddc607.gif?t=1381012592
.jpg:http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/Khanmiss5_zpsa00fd04b.jpg

So there's a quick 5 examples of Khan missing his shots. Is that enough to disprove claims of perfect accuracy?

Here's the version with the .gifs removed:

Originally posted by The Scenario
Next up, a .gif of Khan hitting a Klingon twice, but his third shot goes high:
And in convenient .jpg format: http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/KhanMiss2_zpsd580bcc1.jpg

#3, Khan completely fails to hit this guy with several blasts:
And the still image: http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/khanmiss3_zps961bfbc9.jpg

.gif of Khan missing 2 targets (the .gif doesn't show it, but the next shot does hit one of them after the initial miss):
Still version: http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/Khanmiss4_zps5d004907.jpg

Finally, Khan fails to hit 4 Klingons dropping in on lines:
.jpg:http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p757/Scenario388/Other%20evidence/Khanmiss5_zpsa00fd04b.jpg

Originally posted by KingD19
F*ck that noise. How bout you go back a dozen or so pages where it was posted and find it yourself. I'm not doing the work for you just so you can ignore it again.

It tastes delicious.

Seriously? Me refusing to track down a post from another member because you're too lazy to do it is conceding? You really need a dictionary.

Look above your post though. It's all there.

Originally posted by The Scenario
How is this relevant to Yoda again? You're trying to lowball Yoda based on things other people did. Why? You don't know that the same would have happened against Yoda. If you're going to point to screen feats, at least use feats from the character you're talking about.

Yoda has deflected more than Khan's maybe four shot bursts, and from multiple directions. Khan has never fought an opponent that can reflect his shots, how will his skill help? You still haven't answered that question.

Oh, and here's the quote you're asking for:

Here's the version with the .gifs removed:

I don't see any misses and the first scan seems like the guy gets tagged and then drops so the next blast misses based off his falling body which isn't the same thing.

The rest I don't see the entire environment nor can you ever really see him miss by these scans.

Yoda has never shown the skills to reflect this many successive blasts aimed at him.

Originally posted by KingD19
Seriously? Me refusing to track down a post from another member because you're too lazy to do it is conceding? You really need a dictionary.

Look above your post though. It's all there.