Right, so he moves "freely" through time, and does what exactly?
The moment he makes contact with Surfer a) Surfer will know his shtick and counter it with time manipulation of his own, and b) obliterate Zoom with a death touch (if it's current - willing to kill - Surfer).
Surfer's not a "speedster", he's too powerful and versatile to be defined by one simple trick. Surfer manipulates time and space too.
Originally posted by Golgo13
He can go back to when he was a child and kill him that way. Zoom's manipulation of time>Surfer's.
Zoom > Galactus?
And even if that has been changed, there's the simple fact that Zoom leaving the battlefield would be self-bfr. As well as the fact that it would result in a splinter universe developing, without Norrin as The Silver Surfer ... Rather than affecting 616 Surfer (who would simply obliterate Zoom).
Originally posted by janus77
Won't work, Galactus' ****ed with Zen-La ... hidden it from all time and space or somesuch.Zoom > Galactus?
And even if that has been changed, there's the simple fact that Zoom leaving the battlefield would be self-bfr. As well as the fact that it would result in a splinter universe developing, without Norrin as The Silver Surfer ... Rather than affecting 616 Surfer (who would simply obliterate Zoom).
Zoom doesn't need to travel through time, it's only one option. He could de age him right in front of him, before he reacts.
Originally posted by Golgo13
Zoom doesn't need to travel through time, it's only one option. He could de age him right in front of him, before he reacts.
More likely scenario is that Surfer decides to age Zoom and murder him instantly.
Originally posted by janus77
And I repeat, how do you "age"/"deage" someone who has complete and total control over their atoms and who does not age?More likely scenario is that Surfer decides to age Zoom and murder him instantly.
By someone who has better control. 😎 The Anti-Speed Force let's you manipulate more than time. 😎
Originally posted by Galan007
Given that Surfer has existed as a character for 40+ years and battled hundreds of [powerful] opponents, the fact that he has only destroyed a planet twice in his history implies that it is certainly not an 'in character' tactic for him. This thread does not specify "no CIS", after all.It's a tool in his toolbox, sure-- just not one he's likely to use right out of the gate, imo.
I would argue Surfer has "destroyed" a planet at least four times. Besides Ravenous and Morg, Surfer has incinerated an entire planet (with life on it) in SS #104. The fourth time Korvac made Surfer into a planetary core, and created a planet around Surfer, which Surfer promptly destroyed.
When Surfer does destroy a planet, it's usually when he gets really serious with his opponent, and when the planet is uninhabited. Destroying a planet would be in-character aslong as Zoom pushes him far enough, and the planet isn't populated. I don't know where this battle is taking place though.
Originally posted by Golgo13
By someone who has better control. 😎 The Anti-Speed Force let's you manipulate more than time. 😎
Anyway, Surfer wins 10/10.
Zoom's deaging maneuver likely won't work, given that he apparently had to come within very close proximity of his opponent(AND [albeit briefly] stay in one place) to preform that trick. Time traveling into Surfer's past also isn't an option, as that equates to a self-BFR and automatic loss, per forum rules.
Zoom's most reliable option here is a good 'ol fashion(and relentless) speedblitz, imo. If a single-panel-long blitz is enough for him to stagger Booster, Supes and Hal, I see absolutely no reason why a more prolonged blitz wouldn't cause damage to the likes of Surfer(FTL blitzes'll do that to even the toughest opposition: see Diana's battle with Zolomon.)
Blitzes aside, Professor Zoom was far, far, FAR faster than either Wally or Barry. Surfer has never fought a being remotely close to Zoom's level of speed-- he isn't touching Zoom unless Zoom wants to be touched, imo. That said, the most likely outcome I see here is a stalemate(sans Surfer's very much out of character 'planetary destruction' card, of course.) /shrug
Originally posted by vince_sliceEven if you count those 2 additional times(which is quite sketchy, imo) it's still not 'in character'. A character preforming a given feat 4 times in a 40+ year history doesn't make it 'in character'-- that equates to LESS THAN 1 planet-busting feat every DECADE.
I would argue Surfer has "destroyed" a planet at least four times. Besides Ravenous and Morg, Surfer has incinerated an entire planet (with life on it) in SS #104. The fourth time Korvac made Surfer into a planetary core, and created a planet around Surfer, which Surfer promptly destroyed.When Surfer does destroy a planet, it's usually when he gets really serious with his opponent, and when the planet is uninhabited. Destroying a planet would be in-character aslong as Zoom pushes him far enough, and the planet isn't populated. I don't know where this battle is taking place though.
It is certainly within his power to do, but it simply isn't 'in character'. IMHO.
Originally posted by Galan007
Even if you count those 2 additional times(which is quite sketchy, imo) it's still not 'in character'. A character preforming a given feat 4 times in a 40+ year history doesn't make it 'in character'-- that equates to LESS THAN 1 planet-busting feat every DECADE.It is certainly within his power to do, but it simply isn't 'in character'. IMHO.
He's a space explorer and pacifist, his powers just happen to be freakin' godlike, that's all.
Think about the time he got obliterated to atoms by UniLord, only to reform instantly, he can take prolonged attacks from Galactus level entities... a prolonged speedblitz isn't going to do him in, even if he didn't decide to counter it in some way or other.
Also, just as a bit of perspective, how many times has Galactus' annihilated several planets? I think he's done it as many times Hulk has.
Originally posted by Galan007
Zoom's deaging maneuver likely won't work, given that he apparently had to come within very close proximity of his opponent(AND [albeit briefly] stay in one place) to preform that trick. Time traveling into Surfer's past also isn't an option, as that equates to a self-BFR and automatic loss, per forum rules.Zoom's most reliable option here is a good 'ol fashion(and relentless) speedblitz, imo. If a single-panel-long blitz is enough for him to stagger Booster, Supes and Hal, I see absolutely no reason why a more prolonged blitz wouldn't cause damage to the likes of Surfer(FTL blitzes'll do that to even the toughest opposition: see Diana's battle with Zolomon.)
Blitzes aside, Professor Zoom was far, far, FAR faster than either Wally or Barry. Surfer has never fought a being remotely close to Zoom's level of speed-- he isn't touching Zoom unless Zoom wants to be touched, imo. That said, the most likely outcome I see here is a stalemate(sans Surfer's very much out of character 'planetary destruction' card, of course.) /shrug
👆 If Zoom did master the ASF, I would think he wouldn't really need to touch Surfer for a time fudge.
Originally posted by janus77He's been around 45 years. He's appeared in hundredS of comics. He's taken part in hundredS of battles. He has 2-4 planet-busting feats total. While planet-busting is unquestionably within his power to do, it is not in character for him to do. That much really isn't arguable.
The "40+ year" thing is a bit disingenuous imo, it's not like he's always had an on-going or that his comics are generally about fighting one-on-one.He's a space explorer and pacifist, his powers just happen to be freakin' godlike, that's all.
Think about the time he got obliterated to atoms by UniLord, only to reform instantly, he can take prolonged attacks from Galactus level entities... a prolonged speedblitz isn't going to do him in, even if he didn't decide to counter it in some way or other.
Also, just as a bit of perspective, how many times has Galactus' annihilated several planets? I think he's done it as many times Hulk has.
I know what Surfer is capable of-- he is massively powerful. However, given Zoom's HUGE speed advantage, I don't believe Surfer's power-edge would count for quite as much as you think it would... Zoom could realistically avoid any attack he unleashes.
Maybe a few of the energy/physical attacks, but what about life-force entrapment, or consciousness/mind attacks?
Also, how does Zoom touch Surfer if Surfer phases out or takes over the whole battlefield?
And, most importantly with respect to the "in character" point, Surfer's character/mentality has drastically changed of late. He's far more ruthless against villains than he used to be. And he has instantly killed/obliterated villains of late.
Originally posted by janus77
Maybe a few of the energy/physical attacks, but what about life-force entrapment, or consciousness/mind attacks?Also, how does Zoom touch Surfer if Surfer phases out or takes over the whole battlefield?
And, most importantly with respect to the "in character" point, Surfer's character/mentality has drastically changed of late. He's far more ruthless against villains than he used to be. And he has instantly killed/obliterated villains of late.
Speedsters can be intangible as well and if Surfer phases out of reality, isn't that self BFR? 😛
Originally posted by janus77Those options are definitely viable IF Surfer is capable of doing so to an opponent who moves so fast that time is literally frozen around him(from a relative stance, of course.) And I'm guessing he's never preformed exitic feat like those on a speedster anywhere near Zoom's level...
Maybe a few of the energy/physical attacks, but what about life-force entrapment, or consciousness/mind attacks?Also, how does Zoom touch Surfer if Surfer phases out or takes over the whole battlefield?
He doesn't. Zoom may not be able to harm Surfer, but Surfer may not be able to harm Zoom either. Hence my stalemate comment above.
Originally posted by Galan007
Those options are definitely viable IF Surfer is capable of doing so to an opponent who moves so fast that time is literally frozen around him(from a relative stance, of course.) And I'm guessing he's never preformed exitic feat like those on a speedster anywhere near Zoom's level...He doesn't. Zoom may not be able to harm Surfer, but Surfer may not be able to harm Zoom either. Hence my stalemate comment above.
Also, Surfer's never had an issue with "speedsters" as far as Marvel goes, who's to say that Runner wasn't faster than Flash? Given that speed and "running" was the sole focus of his life.
Anyway, better to disagree and leave it at that.