Zoom Vs Surfer

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes, hence the differentiation in blitzes I made above:

He was able to stagger or drop Booster, Superman and Hal in the space of a single panel with a very casual blitz. Given that, it seems logical to assume that he could potentially cause a great deal of damage to them if he were to blitz with everything he has(Zolomon's casual bashing of Wonder Woman is also indicative of such)... And IF he can harm the aforementioned with an all-out blitz, he should be able to harm Surfer with an all-out blitz as well-- to what degree is impossible to say, however.

I think no one is arguing that Surfer would be unharmed by it. I'm sure that it'd affect him just as much as it did Superman, no problem. It's just that it's all or nothing in this case.

And, while we know Zoom DOES blitz his opponents, we can't automatically assume that he leaves it all hanging in one strike. There are many ways he can "blitz":

1) He can powerpunch Surfer like he did WW. I remember him tossing WW away with his blitz-punch, if he does that, tho, he'd lose as he'd actually allow Surfer to get airborne by tossing him in the air. 😛

2) He can do hit and run tactics to measure his opponent. This also a common, within-personality thing to do for any comicbook character.

3) He can try and overwhelm them with a blitz. <--- this is the only way Zoom would win as any of the above scenarious would result in Surfer going airborne right away. And the question would boil down to: "How many times has Zoom literally let it all hang and simply blitzattacked a character til that character was KOd within Surfer's durability level?"

Surfer is just a really bad opponent for Zoom, IMO. The long range combat, his extreme durability, ability to perceive Zoom, ability to analyze the situation and energies involved, versatility to come up with options to deal with it and the power to carry out what needs to be done.

Personally, til I see scans of Zoom completely overwhelming a character with the durability of Surfer within the space of a single blitz, then I don't think he can or would. Thus, I feel that this will go to Surfer each and every time.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I think no one is arguing that Surfer would be unharmed by it. I'm sure that it'd affect him just as much as it did Superman, no problem. It's just that it's all or nothing in this case.

And, while we know Zoom DOES blitz his opponents, we can't automatically assume that he leaves it all hanging in one strike. There are many ways he can "blitz":

1) He can powerpunch Surfer like he did WW. I remember him tossing WW away with his blitz-punch, if he does that, tho, he'd lose as he'd actually allow Surfer to get airborne by tossing him in the air. 😛

2) He can do hit and run tactics to measure his opponent. This also a common, within-personality thing to do for any comicbook character.

3) He can try and overwhelm them with a blitz. <--- this is the only way Zoom would win as any of the above scenarious would result in Surfer going airborne right away. And the question would boil down to: "How many times has Zoom literally let it all hang and simply blitzattacked a character til that character was KOd within Surfer's durability level?"

Surfer is just a really bad opponent for Zoom, IMO. The long range combat, his extreme durability, ability to perceive Zoom, ability to analyze the situation and energies involved, versatility to come up with options to deal with it and the power to carry out what needs to be done.

Personally, til I see scans of Zoom completely overwhelming a character with the durability of Surfer within the space of a single blitz, then I don't think he can or would. Thus, I feel that this will go to Surfer each and every time.

But again, how much lasting damage Zoom could deliver to Surfer before he went airborne is next to impossible to say. I literally don't think there is a correct way to answer that question.

Thing about Zoom is that most of the times, he's holding back. His general M.O is to make the heroes "better" in his own warped sense of conduct. He thinks by giving the heroes tragedy or no-win situations, it will ultimately make them better at what they do, hence why he doesn't try to outright kill them.

I would assume him going all out with the intent to kill would be something else. Personally, I think Surfer would have to likewise "unshackle" himself from his general demeanor and get creative to beat Zoom, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Meh, a LOT of the tactics mentioned in this very thread on Surfer's behalf are things he's done so rarely that it is hard to call them in character at all-- yet many still see them as viable(mind/soul/consciousness manip. and intangibility to name a few.) Thus there shouldn't be a double-standard for Zoom.

I don't think it's a double standard at all. Well at least for the conditions that this fight has.

Basically, it's due to opportunity.

Zoom has a very small window of time to initiate an attack and win the fight. Within the space of his single blitz. This is his best strategy and if he doesn't pull it off, he gets no second chance as Surfer would no doubt be airborne and the fight is no longer w/in his control.

Surfer however, once airborne, has all the time in the world to asses the situation and come up with counter-strategies via his extremely huge bag of tricks. All the while being outside of Zoom's range to affect. If one fails, he can try another. If that fails, he can try again. He can keep doing this til he exhausts all his options and therefore create a stalemate. Thing is, it's completely within his character to analyze situations and come up with ways to exploit a weakness or vulnerability. Given enough time, he'll figure something out and the ideas brought forward are just some things that Surfer would no doubt access within his rather expansive toolbox.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol? I didn't call anyone out. Heck I didn't even quote a post of yours(or anyone's, for that matter) when I mentioned the planet-busting tactic initially. Furthermore, you weren't the only person who mentioned that tactic-- Janus and Prep did as well:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=581184&pagenumber=5

Originally posted by Galan007
So if my post hurt your feelings, then I apologize. However, it wasn't intended as the personal jab you seemed to have perceived it as. Dunno why you're making such a big deal out of nothing..?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thing about Zoom is that most of the times, he's holding back. His general M.O is to make the heroes "better" in his own warped sense of conduct. He thinks by giving the heroes tragedy or no-win situations, it will ultimately make them better at what they do, hence why he doesn't try to outright kill them.

I would assume him going all out with the intent to kill would be something else. Personally, I think Surfer would have to likewise "unshackle" himself from his general demeanor and get creative to beat Zoom, imo.

This isn't an "unshackled" Zoom, tho. He still pretty much fights in-character.

hmm

Given that take on Zoom's motivations, doesn't Surfer fall perfectly within the category of a "hero Zoom would want to "better"" and thus would actually mean that Zoom would hesitate more?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thing about Zoom is that most of the times, he's holding back. His general M.O is to make the heroes "better" in his own warped sense of conduct. He thinks by giving the heroes tragedy or no-win situations, it will ultimately make them better at what they do, hence why he doesn't try to outright kill them.

I would assume him going all out with the intent to kill would be something else. Personally, I think Surfer would have to likewise "unshackle" himself from his general demeanor and get creative to beat Zoom, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Meh, a LOT of the tactics mentioned in this very thread on Surfer's behalf are things he's done so rarely that it is hard to call them in character at all-- yet many still see them as viable(mind/soul/consciousness manip. and intangibility to name a few.)

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I don't think it's a double standard at all.

That isn't directed at you, btw. You have been very logical regarding both parties. 👆

Originally posted by ODG
That came later with your missives (see below). What you initially did was address insipid logic without appreciating why that insipid logic was being discussed in the first place. And I never claimed to own this entire conversation. I did point out how others started it on page 4, after all. Don't project. What I perceived your initial post to be was simply the same line of thought that I had been actively deconstructing... since, y'know, you basically restated EXACTLY all of Golgo13's reservations over Surfer's planet-busting. Which is why my reply to you mirrored my earlier responses to Golgo13. As for the whole "don't project, it's pathetic" missives, I shouldn't have to explain why my tone shifted.

It needn't be taken any further. 👆

Originally posted by ODG
Needless to say, this whole trend of having powersets dominate the conversation without appreciating character propensity shouldn't exactly be blamed on Surfer fans. Full stop.

Originally posted by ODG
Zoom =/= Professor Zoom.

Ah, okay.

From the thread title, I assumed this was Zoom (Hunter), but the OP's picture indicates that this is Professor Zoom/Reverse Flash.

Originally posted by Galan007
If you believe that Surfer would unleash an exotic ability in this battle that he's only utilized a few times in his entire character history, despite CIS still being in effect, then it is outright wrong, and a HUGE double-standard, to question any feats brought up on Zoom's behalf. Fair is fair, after all. If we stick entirely to 'in character' tactics, however, I personally don't think Surfer would utilize a good portion of the esoteric tactics people have mentioned. /shrug

That isn't directed at you, btw. You have been very logical regarding both parties. 👆

Well, I kinda did explain it in my next paragraph on why it isn't a double standard. 😛

To summarize: It's not that he'll unleash an exotic attack automatically. It's that he'll probably unleash something exotic once all his other more in-character options are exhausted. Eventually.

Originally posted by Galan007
I commented on a point that several people had brought up. You took it personally. I reiterated that the post was not directed toward anyone in particular, nor was it intended as a personal jab. End of story.

Originally posted by Galan007
It needn't be taken any further. 👆

I agree. See my post to Nibe.

I saw your latest post to Nibedicus. I'm not sure I see what you want me to see there. To be more clear, all these exotic Surfer tactics were a response to Professor Zoom tactics of instantly de-aging and timeline-erasing. So why is it that Surfer fans are the ones being taken to task over blindly arguing powersets over character exactly?

Zoom blitzing Superman, Hal, and Booster makes me believe Surfer won't have a chance in the speed/reaction department.

Originally posted by ODG
No, I took your flippant retort and subsequent missives personally. I treated your first "not-specifically-directed-at-anybody" comment in exactly the same fashion I dealt with Golgo13's responses. That should have been end of story, but we knew exactly how you retorted. This much I agree with. I don't exactly relish retracing pointless conversations that add absolutely nothing to the discussion. 👆

I saw your latest post to Nibedicus. I'm not sure I see what you want me to see there. To be more clear, all these exotic Surfer tactics were a response to Professor Zoom tactics of instantly de-aging and timeline-erasing. So why is it that Surfer fans are being the ones taking to task over arguing powersets over character exactly?

I am speaking strictly in Surfer-posts directed toward MY argumentation; no one else's. And all I have argued for is Zoom's speed-edge. The retort to this was that Surfer will use esoteric abilities he's used a few times in his history despite CIS being on.

That's all I had a problem with

Originally posted by Golgo13
Zoom blitzing Superman, Hal, and Booster makes me believe Surfer won't have a chance in the speed/reaction department.

It didn't KO them, though. We need to assume things happen in-character as per how it occurred in a comic. If he blitzed Superman (the closest comparison on the DC side to Surfer's durability IMO) and failed to KO him within the span of his initial blitz then it would be safe to assume that a Zoom blitz won't KO Surfer from the get-go either.

This would then give Surfer enough time to fly away via his board.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes, I trolled you. It will not be the last time. 👆

I am speaking strictly in Surfer-posts directed toward MY argumentation; no one else's. And all I have argued for is Zoom's speed-edge. The retort to this was that Surfer will use esoteric abilities he's used a few times in his history despite CIS being on.

That's all I had a problem with

Originally posted by Galan007
Zoom's deaging maneuver likely won't work, given that he apparently had to come within very close proximity of his opponent(AND [albeit briefly] stay in one place) to preform that trick. Time traveling into Surfer's past also isn't an option, as that equates to a self-BFR and automatic loss, per forum rules.

Originally posted by ODG
Well, I did miss this earlier post where you skewered the notion that Professor Zoom would de-age or timeline wipe Surfer out of existence: I'm going to go right ahead and also read "CIS does apply to Professor Zoom too, after all" into that comment and find conciliation with the current trends of the conversation. Now it's starting to make sense.

Sorry about the piss-poor grammar composition of my previous post. I typed it in a rush on my Android... Even I can barely understand wtf I was trying to say. 👇

Originally posted by Galan007
👆

Sorry about the piss-poor grammar composition of my previous post. I typed it in a rush on my Android... Even I can barely understand wtf I was trying to say. 👇

Slightly OT, but it looks like Reverse Flash is going the way of Professor Zoom. 😎

Why does he have......scales?

Don't see why they would be fighting on an inhabited planet by default as that necessarily limits full potential. Heck characters like WBH would hardly be able to do anything in such conditions without risk of killing everyone.

Hence assuming the planet is uninhabited, surfer getting up in the air and then using an omniblast is a pretty valid tactic and one that Zoom can't really defend against.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Hence assuming the planet is uninhabited, surfer getting up in the air and then using an omniblast is a pretty valid tactic and one that Zoom can't really defend against.

Granted, Zoom can vibrate himself so fast that he gains a form of intangibility-- that is to say: he can pass through solid objects, and vice versa. However, I doubt that trick makes him immune to energy attacks.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Slightly OT, but it looks like Reverse Flash is going the way of Professor Zoom. 😎