Hancock vs. Zod

Originally posted by juggerman
He would have more ability to better handle his power

please explain how "cutting loose" with his strength has an impact on a bullet moving his head against his will.

Originally posted by juggerman
I didn't. It's obvious so stop trolling

Okay. So you agree that Hancock is stronger than them.

cool.

Originally posted by juggerman
Neither was Zod until the end.

Superman was stronger than Zod.

Originally posted by juggerman
Nothing indicated his neck could be broken until it was.

What point are you trying to make by bringing up the fact that Zod's neck is capable of being broken?

Originally posted by juggerman
Mary never attempted to actually kill Hancock

Originally posted by juggerman
The ground gave way to the truck. Watch it again

I will watch it again...

Until then, please explain how the ground being damaged proves that Hancock was hurt in the exchange.

Originally posted by marwash22
i honestly don't understanding what point you're making.

please explain how "cutting loose" with his strength has an impact on a bullet moving his head against his will.

Okay. So you agree that Hancock is stronger than them.

cool.

Superman was visibly hurt many times during his fight with Zod and co.

Superman was stronger than Zod.

but it happened.

What point are you trying to make by bringing up the fact that Zod's neck is capable of being broken?

What evidence do you wish to present that shows Hancock could be killed... or even harmed?

I will watch it again...

Until then, please explain how the ground being damaged proved that Hancock was hurt in the exchange.

Him openly using his powers explains how he can handle himself better ie not being moved.

Sure

Prove Superman was stronger

I don't believe in no limits fallacies like you seem to

I never said he was hurt. He just didn't remain "unmoving" like he did with the train even tho he was hit by significantly less force

Originally posted by juggerman
Him openly using his powers explains how he can handle himself better ie not being moved.

Originally posted by juggerman
Sure

Originally posted by juggerman
Prove Superman was stronger

also, the fact that Kal has been on Earth longer means he stronger, as you pointed out when you explained why the jet fire knocked the big guy on his rump. If the big guy was stronger, the jet fire wouldn't have knocked him back as much as it did.

Originally posted by juggerman
I never said he was hurt. He just didn't remain "unmoving" like he did with the train even tho he was hit by significantly less force

The ground wasn't strong enough to withstand the impact... what does that have to do with Hancock? He technically was not moved from his position, the ground simply gave way... if the ground was stronger, there wouldn't been a crater.

There was also the fact that the Hancock that Mary smacked with a cement mixer was not the same Hancock that tanked the train. He was much weaker as he'd been hanging around Mary and Ray for a few days/weeks when that happened.

Originally posted by marwash22
he had already been in the middle of fighting everyone when the bullets hit him in the face and his head was forcibly turned by the impact.

so, what are we discussing? lol.

he held Zod down and Zod could not escape.

also, the fact that Kal has been on Earth longer means he stronger, as you pointed out when you explained why the jet fire knocked the big guy on his rump. If the big guy was stronger, the jet fire wouldn't have knocked him back as much as it did.

okay?

The ground wasn't strong enough to withstand the impact... what does that have to do with Hancock? He technically was not moved from his position, the ground simply gave way... if the ground was stronger, there wouldn't been a crater.

Hancock braced for the impact. Kal didn't iirc. Completely different imo. Like Superman vs Hulk

Stronger =/= win. Besides Hancock isn't stronger. I would put the gravity beam above the train. Also he resisted a black hole. Black hole>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>train

Zod not escaping doesn't mean he was weaker. They could have been exactly equal resulting in Zod being held since he was already down. Even if he were slightly stronger he'd still have trouble getting out. And Kal being on Earth longer doesn't mean anything here. In the movie, the time spent on Earth didn't affect the power they had. The new Kryptonains arrived and were the same level as Kal was after 33 years.

I disagree. He was moved but i think that's moot now cuz of this:

Originally posted by KingD19
There was also the fact that the Hancock that Mary smacked with a cement mixer was not the same Hancock that tanked the train. He was much weaker as he'd been hanging around Mary and Ray for a few days/weeks when that happened.

I didn't consider this. Very valid point.

Didn't Lois also survive that "Black Hole"? I recall people mentioning that she was with Superman at the time.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Didn't Lois also survive that "Black Hole"? I recall people mentioning that she was with Superman at the time.

He pulled her away from it. It would have pulled her in had he not saved her. She didn't survive under her own power if that's what you're suggesting

Well, if it wasn't powerful enough to hurt her, why is Superman surviving it an impressive feat?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Well, if it wasn't powerful enough to hurt her, why is Superman surviving it an impressive feat?

Not surviving it. Resisting it. Pulling away from it. That shows his strength. Besides it was basically a portal to the Phantom Zone which wasn't designed to kill/harm.

It couldn't have been a very strong pull, or else Lois would have been sucked through it in under a second.

Originally posted by Silent Master
It couldn't have been a very strong pull, or else Lois would have been sucked through it in under a second.

It was a black hole. Her not being sucked up asap when everything else was was PIS.

Originally posted by juggerman
It was a black hole. Her not being sucked up asap when everything else was was PIS.

If the scene was PIS, then why bring it up?

Originally posted by juggerman
Not surviving it. Resisting it. Pulling away from it. That shows his strength. Besides it was basically a portal to the Phantom Zone which wasn't designed to kill/harm.

Originally posted by juggerman
Hancock braced for the impact. Kal didn't iirc. Completely different imo.

Hancock dipped his shoulder slightly in the half a second before the train hit him. He didn't plant his feet and brace for impact, nor did he take a step forward to add his own momentum. He stood there and slightly dipped his shoulder... that's it.

And yeah, you're correct, Superman did not brace for impact, and his head was moved by bullets.

Once more, are you suggesting that Bullets from fighter jets have more force behind them than a speeding train carrying 20+ cars behind it?

Originally posted by juggerman
Like Superman vs Hulk

Originally posted by juggerman
Stronger =/= win.

Originally posted by juggerman
Besides Hancock isn't stronger.

I would put the gravity beam above the train.

Originally posted by juggerman
Also he resisted a black hole. Black hole>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>train

lolno.

That was a singularity, not a black hole; the two are not the same. The military dude (Harry Lennix), didn't know what a singularity was, he just knew that it was "sorta like a black hole", and they didn't have time to sit there and give him a lesson in physics so they just said yeah and moved on... there are singularities inside of black holes, but singularities are not, themselves, black holes. If that was a black hole, Earth would have gotten it's shit pushed in... or more accurately, it would have gotten it's shit, sucked in.

That said, what Kal did was impressive, it was a feat of speed, but he in no way resisted the gravitation pull of a black hole.

Nice try tho.

Originally posted by juggerman
Zod not escaping doesn't mean he was weaker. They could have been exactly equal resulting in Zod being held since he was already down. Even if he were slightly stronger he'd still have trouble getting out.

Are you telling me that if someone who is your exact strength level has you on your knees in a headlock, you wouldn't be able to move... at all? You can't be serious. If Person A has Person B on the ground in a headlock, Person A would have to be significantly stronger than Person B, or else Person B would be able to get back to his feet. ffs, go watch an mma fight, or go grab a friend and test it out for yourself.

This point shouldn't even be debatable.

Originally posted by juggerman
And Kal being on Earth longer doesn't mean anything here. In the movie, the time spent on Earth didn't affect the power they had. The new Kryptonains arrived and were the same level as Kal was after 33 years.

Originally posted by juggerman
Nam Ek had his powers for like 13 seconds before he was tossed like that. Faora as well.

which is it?

also, if time spent under the yellow sun isn't a factor, how do you explain the big guy being knocked 10 feet back by jet fire, and the same jet fire only having minor effect when it hit Kal? If time spent under the yellow sun didn't matter, they would have been just as strong, and the bullets wouldn't have knocked him on his ass.

Originally posted by juggerman
I disagree. He was moved but i think that's moot now cuz of this:

I didn't consider this. Very valid point.

It was already a moot point, because your argument was based on a crater in the ground... suggesting that the strength of the ground is somehow connected to strength of Hancock. That's makes no sense at all.

okay, so this brings us right back to you applying a weakness were none was shown. It's not a fallacy because no one ever made the claim that Hancock's invulnerability was absolute... quetion is, why do you think it's okay for you to determine exactly how much damage a character can take, without any justification, or facts as support?

Originally posted by Silent Master
If the scene was PIS, then why bring it up?

Not the entire scene just one part. But iirc the explosion happened after he caught her

Originally posted by Mindset
The force he is able to produce with flight really has nothing to do with his strength in a fight.

I disagree.

Originally posted by marwash22
Hancock dipped his shoulder slightly in the half a second before the train hit him. He didn't plant his feet and brace for impact, nor did he take a step forward to add his own momentum. He stood there and slightly dipped his shoulder... that's it.

And yeah, you're correct, Superman did not brace for impact, and his head was moved by bullets.

Once more, are you suggesting that Bullets from fighter jets have more force behind them than a speeding train carrying 20+ cars behind it?

dunno what this is a reference to.

🤨

I already told you that I wasn't interested in your opinions since a debate can't be decided without facts... you have no facts, all you have is your opinion of how much gravity was being projected.

😐 😬

lolno.

That was a singularity, not a black hole; the two are not the same. The military dude (Harry Lennix), didn't know what a singularity was, he just knew that it was "sorta like a black hole", and they didn't have time to sit there and give him a lesson in physics so they just said yeah and moved on... there are singularities inside of black holes, but singularities are not, themselves, black holes. If that was a black hole, Earth would have gotten it's shit pushed in... or more accurately, it would have gotten it's shit, sucked in.

That said, what Kal did was impressive, it was a feat of speed, but he in no way resisted the gravitation pull of a black hole.

Nice try tho.

*sigh*

Are you telling me that if someone who is your exact strength level has you on your knees in a headlock, you wouldn't be able to move... at all? You can't be serious. If Person A has Person B on the ground in a headlock, Person A would have to be significantly stronger than Person B, or else Person B would be able to get back to his feet. ffs, go watch an mma fight, or go grab a friend and test it out for yourself.

This point shouldn't even be debatable.

but in an earlier retort you explained that the big Kryptonian was moved by jet fire because:

which is it?

also, if time spent under the yellow sun isn't a factor, how do you explain the big guy being knocked 10 feet back by jet fire, and the same jet fire only having minor effect when it hit Kal? If time spent under the yellow sun didn't matter, they would have been just as strong, and the bullets wouldn't have knocked him on his ass.

No, he did not move, the ground did. 😐

It was already a moot point, because your argument was based on a crater in the ground... suggesting that the strength of the ground is somehow connected to strength of Hancock. That's makes no sense at all.

okay, so this brings us right back to you applying a weakness were none was shown. It's not a fallacy because no one ever made the claim that Hancock's invulnerability was absolute... quetion is, why do you think it's okay for you to determine exactly how much damage a character can take, without any justification, or facts as support?

Not at all. Hancock clearly braced for impact resulting in his him not being moved. Kal did not.

It's a reference to a Marvel vs DC crossover comic where, when Superman isn't prepared/braced Hulk sends him flying with one punch but when he comes back and braces himself Hulk fails to move him with several punches.

I care not what you are interested in. Im giving my opinions. If you don't like them feel free to ignore them as i wasn't trying to pass it off as fact. I clearly said "i'd put it above the train" not "it's above the train"

It was basically a black hole it just collapsed quickly. Kal pulling against it is above the train feat. And it was not just his speed seeing as how simply being fast would not be enough to escape it's pull. Once caught in it, if one doesn't have the strength to pull away, they would be sucked in no matter the speed. But thanks for playing

That's exactly what i'm saying. We see it in fights all the time. It's called leverage. If you don't have it it's very hard to escape even if you're a bit stronger. It's not debatable. He was held due to leverage and didn't try for any significant amount of time to escape. He struggled a bit and then focused on the humans

You're twisting what i said. The big guy wasn't used to his power yet so he would know how to properly brace himself. Hancock would seeing as how he's been using his power freely for 60 years

If you say so. Hancock clearly moves but again it doesn't matter now since he was weakened

I'm not applying a no limits fallacy as you are. He wasn't harmed by force much weaker than supersonic punches imo. Giving him a free pass because he tanked lesser things is not good debating

Originally posted by juggerman
Once caught in it, if one doesn't have the strength to pull away, they would be sucked in no matter the speed.

Originally posted by juggerman
Not the entire scene just one part. But iirc the explosion happened after he caught her

I see, you only want to call PIS on the part that hurts your argument.

Originally posted by juggerman

I disagree.

I'm done. This guy can't/won't be reasoned with. Apparently his opinions of events (and even science) supersedes the actual facts.

Quan isn't even this bad.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Except it's all about the speed. Look up what escape velocity means. And while we're discussing black holes, it's clearly evident that Kal was nowhere near the event horizon of the phantom-portal, as fans of that non-feat have tried to backhandedly suggest.

It wasn't just about his speed. If i were Flash fast but lacked the strength needed to propel my legs forward away from the pull of the black hole it wouldn't matter that i was capable of the speed since i would still need the strength. If Kal wasn't strong enough to resist the pull himself he wouldn't have been able to keep his arms forward and hold Lois away from it. His arms would have just been pulled down at his sides and Lois would have been sucked up

Originally posted by Silent Master
I see, you only want to call PIS on the part that hurts your argument.

No. And as i said in the very post you quoted the black hole happened after Kal caught her.

Originally posted by Mindset
I don't care, you're wrong.

Negative

Originally posted by marwash22
I'm done. This guy can't/won't be reasoned with. Apparently his opinions of events (and even science) supersedes the actual facts.

Quan isn't even this bad.

I clearly can be when presented with actual counters and not fallacies and straw manning. When I see that I’m wrong I admit it like I did with the whole train being a strength feat as well as a durability feat. But keep crying