Darth Bane (DoE) vs Anakin Skywalker (RotS)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
''Could'' is the keyword here. You'll have to prove that it'd be enhanced by a ridiculous degree.

No I won't. You see, you're attempting to invalidate a feat by pointing out an inconsistency. The fact is that you can only do so by proving it to be inconsistent. By providing a plausible explanation I destroy your chances of doing that. I don't have to prove anything. I may be only speculating, but unless you can prove me wrong, so are you.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. You can't make up Zannah's speed as it suits you just so it suits the logic of Bane's rain feat.

I'm not making up anything. Bane is canonically that fast. You cannot deny that this is so, he has evidence on his side that supports it. Thus, Zannah keeping up with him proves that she is also extremely fast. Unless theres an actual reason why she can't be that fast this is the case, no matter how much you whine about it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure I can. Bane's best feat with orbalisks is looking to wield 12 sabers:

She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time. Zannah fell into a full retreat, desperately giving ground beneath the overwhelming assault.

-Rule of Two

Bane's rain feat:

Feeling a blast of cold wind blow in, he crouched low and opened himself up to the Force, letting it flow through him. Drawing on it to extend his awareness out to encompass each individual bead of rain as it fell from the sky, he resolved not to let a single drop touch his exposed flesh. He could sense the power of the dark side building inside him. It began, as it always did, with a faint spark, a tiny flicker of light and heat. Muscles tense and coiled in anticipation, he fed the spark, fueling it with his own passion, letting his anger and fury transform the flame into an inferno waiting to be unleashed. As the first fat drops splattered onto the patio stones around him, Bane exploded into action. Abandoning the overpowering style of Djem So, he shifted to the quicker sequences of Soresu, his lightsaber tracing tight circles above his head in a series of movements designed to intercept enemy blaster bolts. The wind rose to a howling gale, and the scattered drops quickly became a downpour. His body and mind united as one, he channeled the infinite power of the Force against the driving rain. Tiny clouds of hissing steam formed as his blade picked off the descending drops while Bane twisted, twirled, and contorted his body to evade those few that managed to slip through his defenses. For the next ten minutes he battled the pelting storm, reveling in the power of the dark side. And then, as suddenly as it had begun, the tempest was gone, the dark cloud scurrying away on the breeze. Breathing hard, Bane extinguished his lightsaber. His skin was sheened in sweat, but not a single drop of rain had touched his bare flesh.

Bane's feat in DoE is clearly better than his in RoT, this despite being slower than in RoT:

He leapt high in the air, his lightsaber arcing above his head before chopping straight down in a blow powerful enough to cleave an enemy in two. His feet hit the hard surface of the courtyard stones with a sharp, sudden smack as he landed. Bane still moved with fierce grace and terrifying intensity. His lightsaber still flickered with blinding speed as he performed his martial drills, yet it was the merest fraction slower than it had once been.

The aging process was subtle, but inescapable.

There's a reason why this one feat stands out. Otherwise, why did he not demonstrate such speed in his duel with Zannah? Or just in general?

You're assuming that RoT is when he was at his peak. He could have gotten faster than he was in either incarnation before slowing down. The text doesn't say that he's slower than he was during RoT, merely that he's gotten slower than he was at some point.

But if you want to go that route, I'd be happy to give RoT Bane his DoE speed on top of his other advantages.

You're ignoring the fact that he did use his speed against Zannah, it just wasn't enough to overpower her.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Read the title: Dynasty of Evil Bane, not Rule of Two Bane.

I wasn't aware that DoE Bane was weaker than his less experienced, matured counterpart. 🙄

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never said Bane wasn't skilled. But the opinion of a battlemaster and decades of training should not put him on Sidious' and Yoda's tier.

It is in the aspect of skill where Bane is closest to them though.

Why not? The fact that he was so skilled at that point, his incredible learning rate and a huge period of training should put him there logically.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
She has never beaten anyone of merit and has only hyperbolic statements?

So what??? She's clearly reasonably skilled given her fight against Bane. Her fighting style doesn't rely on skill anyway.

She'd beat Maul. 🙂

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku definitely has knowledge about all the forms, but he's only a master of one, much less a high-end master of all.

I wouldn't be so sure. He's never been named as such, no, but he was a "legendary lightsaber instructor" and has been touted ad nauseam for his skill. His only peers among the Jedi are either masters of all forms or most. I wouldn't rule it out.

Speculation.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Speculation.

Obviously, but I'm not trying to pass it off as fact now am I?

I never said you did?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku is only ever named a master of Makashi. But his training of Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil suggests at least a working knowledge of other forms.

Where did you prove that the skill gap was "far"?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And when did you point that out? 'Cause I don't see it.

Eh?

Dooku is only ''Master'' of one form... what, Kas'im is above Dooku too? Don't think so.

When I pointed out that Kas'im has enough mastery to create hundreds of thousands of sequences based off of the various forms. He's basically not just having mastered them, but refined and redesigned them. Its the difference between knowing the words to the music, and writing your own symphonies.

But Maul is one of the most dangerous apprentices in history so I guess he's on par.

Probably? He's demonstrated a greater comprehensive knowledge, but Dooku is without a doubt the best Makashi swordsman in the mythos so his mastery of that form transcends whatever Kas'im has in regards to his respective grasp of the forms. Besides which is his extensive list of accolades as a swordsman.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never said you did?

Then your blunt utterance of the obvious was for what purpose?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Then your blunt utterance of the obvious was for what purpose?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Making sure that my point still stood?

Your point teeters. I'm not making a claim one way or another, merely introducing facts that seemingly contradict the idea that or, at the very least, gives us pause to claim Dooku is a master of absolutely only one form. It was more for discussion.

Okay. But I still doubt it. He explicitly disrespects Ataru in Revenge of the Sith, and he's not physically overwhelming so Djem So is out of the question. Not Juyo either, for the obvious reason that he'd be a high-end master of multiple forms to master it.

That leaves us with Form I (forgot name), Makashi, Soresu and Niman. Makashi is a yes, but I doubt he'd be a master of Soresu (I have no canon explanation for this, just my gut), and I'm not sure what Niman really is.

He's probably a master of Form I and Form II, but such does not translate into ''multiple forms'' much less to a high degree, in my opinion.

Shii-cho. And Niman is the diplomats form, having no strengths or overt weaknesses and being easily learned.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No I won't. You see, you're attempting to invalidate a feat by pointing out an inconsistency. The fact is that you can only do so by proving it to be inconsistent. By providing a plausible explanation I destroy your chances of doing that. I don't have to prove anything. I may be only speculating, but unless you can prove me wrong, so are you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not making up anything. Bane is canonically that fast. You cannot deny that this is so, he has evidence on his side that supports it. Thus, Zannah keeping up with him proves that she is also extremely fast. Unless theres an actual reason why she can't be that fast this is the case, no matter how much you whine about it.

Cognus could follow their movements, and Cognus has done absolutely nothing at this point indicating she's as fast as Maul who could not even see Sidious.

Again, if he did show such an extreme amount of speed in a duel, then sure. But he hasn't. None of his other speed feats are even remotely close to that. Isn't that a little odd?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're assuming that RoT is when he was at his peak. He could have gotten faster than he was in either incarnation before slowing down. The text doesn't say that he's slower than he was during RoT, merely that he's gotten slower than he was at some point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're ignoring the fact that he did use his speed against Zannah, it just wasn't enough to overpower her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't aware that DoE Bane was weaker than his less experienced, matured counterpart. 🙄

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why not? The fact that he was so skilled at that point, his incredible learning rate and a huge period of training should put him there logically.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what??? She's clearly reasonably skilled given her fight against Bane. Her fighting style doesn't rely on skill anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She'd beat Maul. 🙂

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Quote for the last part?

Besides, Maul is also ludicrously fast.

Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So what if he understands it and can anticipate it? Maul's basic training consisted of lunging and slashing and running thousands of times, each done hundred times a day, not making any misstep or mistake in years, knowing them intimately.

Few complete the deadly Sith trails. (SWTORE, Page 165)

Sith warriors are supposed to be extraordinarily tough and capable combatants: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-warrior

Kas'im is an example of a Sith warrior.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Shii-cho. And Niman is the diplomats form, having no strengths or overt weaknesses and being easily learned.

Even if he is master of three forms, only one should he be a ''high-end'' master of, in my opinion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A hint:

Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

Nah.

Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith training curriculum is very tough and harsh.

Few complete the deadly Sith trails. (SWTORE, Page 165)

Sith warriors are supposed to be extraordinarily tough and capable combatants: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-warrior

Kas'im is an example of a Sith warrior.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nah.

Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Maul's decade of training and suffering still seems to be superior.

Stop wanking Maul so much. Sith training is not a matter of joke and Maul isn't the greatest Sith warrior.

Apparently this has become the Kas'im vs Maul thread.
Anyway, back to Bane vs. Anakin.

Force: Close. I recall that Bane once collapsed a temple and Anakin once collapsed a roof with his force scream. They are both incredibly powerful force users.
Sabers: Possibly Anakin. They both specialize in Form V. Dooku considered Anakin the finest Djem So user he had ever seen in their final confrontation. His victories over the likes of Dooku, Ventress, etc. establish him as one of the greatest swordsmen of his era. While Bane is no slouch himself, he preferred to manipulate from the shadows rather than fight the jedi directly. During DoE, his lightsaber victory against Zannah is slightly hampered by the fact that he was her master and had never shown some of his best moves against her, catching her unawares (though she paid him back with her sorcery).
All-out: Likely Anakin. Bane might try his mind transfer technique, but the one time he used it Zannah mentally defeated him. Anakin has ridiculous willpower that allowed him to survive the damage he suffered on Mustafar until Sidious arrived (which is more than Zannah ever suffered). I doubt Bane would be able to overcome Anakin with his technique.

Bane is a physical brute and this complements his Form V style. He might be capable of producing more powerful strikes then even Anakin. He managed to push Kas'im back with his blows.

Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.

He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into a backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber. Kas'im flipped back and out through the door into the hall beyond, but Bane was relentless in his pursuit, leaping forward and coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the Twilek's leg.

His strike was turned aside at the last second, but he quickly followed it up with another series of powerful thrusts and stabs. The Blademaster continued to give ground, pushed inexorably back by the raging storm of Bane's onslaught. Each time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted, and seized the advantage.

The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas’im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and
nullify them all.

The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life. But he didn’t know the Temple like Bane did. Bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway.

Recognizing what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of aside room with the Force and dived inside. Bane knew there was no other exit, and he paused at the threshold of the room to savor his victory. The Twi'lek stood in the center of the empty chamber, panting heavily, stooped ever so slightly, his head bowed. He looked up when Bane stepped through the doorway. But when his gaze met Bane's, there was no hint of defeat in his eyes. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This indicates Bane's adeptness in the use of the Force. With his superior command of the Force, Bane was able to duel Kas'im. Otherwise, Kas'im would have cut him down on the basis of his superior martial abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you think that Kas'im's training and practice sessions lasted some months? Kas'im had spent decade(s) honing his skills actually.

Stop wanking Maul so much. Sith training is not a matter of joke and Maul isn't the greatest Sith warrior.

I'm not wanking him. Fact is he's one of the most highly trained Sith apprentices in history.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
DoE Bane's command of the force isn't superior to Maul's, so there goes that.

In what area does he so much as begin to rival him?