Originally posted by JakeTheBank
When he has no choice, he'll kill.He shattered what was left of Darkseid's form after Orion fighting him, the Omega Sanction striking him, the Radion bullet striking him, and Diana's lasso. Still highly impressive for Superman to eradicate what's left of his form, but it's kinda sketchy to assume he could do it on a blanket wide array of anyone trans or below, let alone when you factor in power sets and how they could defend against a sonic frequency/counter vibration based attack.
Sure, if they can defend against such attacks then Superman can fail to achieve it on them. I was just speaking in terms of them just sitting there and letting it happen without defense.
I see you and Galan's point though. I just believe the writer made up a rule for all beings (regardless of their state) and had Superman utilize the rule. In D.C. I don't recall it ever mentioning everything is vibrations before. This comes from string theory if I'm not mistaken (which is not proven yet). Now it can be argued that this one writer doesn't have the power (by himself) to make Superman that powerful.
Ok, knowing how your "logic" works, I've decided to approach countering your argument two-fold to avoid wasting ppl's time:
Via "RL Science":
I've looked up a bit about string theory online, and from what I could surmise. Having a string vibrating with one pattern to collide with a string vibrating in the exact opposite pattern does not cancel out the law of conservation.
What will likely occur is that:
"Two excited strings can form a single one that is in the ground state (not excited) but the two strings themselves can not disappear by "negative interference"
"This is just like a Taylor expansion, except for fluctuating quantities, and the operator product laws are the laws of string merger and vibration-adding. You can't make nothing, because you always have a world sheet, and the addition law is strange, not by the laws of superposition (like water waves, or oscillations on rubber bands) but by the rules of operator product expansion."
From what I can surmise (correct me if I'm wrong of course), you cannot "erase" something thru counter-vibration. Only create something new. The Law of Conservation still applies.
Source: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/20856/what-happens-when-two-strings-collide
Via "Comic book logic":
Well, we know Superman mentions the word "cancel". But the word itself has several meanings and can be taken different ways. What is important is: "What exactly happened to DS when Superman used the counter-vibrations against him?" As one is simple vague character statements and the second is actual on-panel proof (proof >> statements).
From what I've read, Galan has already proven that DS was not in any way cancelled out (even tho Galan is such big meanie). I can perhaps agree to DS (what remained of him, anyway) being "dispersed" or "shattered" (the art kinda alludes to that) but, cannot in any way, agree to an actual "erasure" just because Superman just used the word "cancel" vaguely unless you have proof of the aftermath that explicitly says so.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Ok, knowing how your "logic" works, I've decided to approach countering your argument two-fold to avoid wasting ppl's time:Via "RL Science":
I've looked up a bit about string theory online, and from what I could surmise. Having a string vibrating with one pattern to collide with a string vibrating in the exact opposite pattern does not cancel out the law of conservation.
What will likely occur is that:
"Two excited strings can form a single one that is in the ground state (not excited) but the two strings themselves can not disappear by "negative interference"
"This is just like a Taylor expansion, except for fluctuating quantities, and the operator product laws are the laws of string merger and vibration-adding. You can't make nothing, because you always have a world sheet, and the addition law is strange, not by the laws of superposition (like water waves, or oscillations on rubber bands) but by the rules of operator product expansion."
From what I can surmise (correct me if I'm wrong of course), you cannot "erase" something thru counter-vibration. Only create something new. The Law of Conservation still applies.
Source: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/20856/what-happens-when-two-strings-collide
Via "Comic book logic":
Well, we know Superman mentions the word "cancel". But the word itself has several meanings and can be taken different ways. What is important is: "What exactly happened to DS when Superman used the counter-vibrations against him?" As one is simple vague character statements and the second is actual on-panel proof (proof >> statements).
From what I've read, Galan has already proven that DS was not in any way cancelled out (even tho Galan is such big meanie). I can perhaps agree to DS (what remained of him, anyway) being "dispersed" or "shattered" (the art kinda alludes to that) but, cannot in any way, agree to an actual "erasure" just because Superman just used the word "cancel" vaguely unless you have proof of the aftermath that explicitly says so.
In actuality, we can care less about string theory (since it is unproven) and just go by the writer.
We all know what cancel out means to a basic extent, especially in terms of what the writer meant.
Originally posted by h1a8
LOL
When I mentioned string theory I was actually arguing against myself. In other words, I was trying to invalidate the feat so that Jake and Galan can have a point.In actuality, we can care less about string theory (since it is unproven) and just go by the writer.
We all know what cancel out means to a basic extent, especially in terms of what the writer meant.
Great. Cuz I wanted to eliminate the whole "RL Science approach" before things get started silly and cornball math start popping out of the woodwork.
Comic book logic then.
Your entire logical foundation is basing it on one vague character statement to come upon your conclusion and using it to try and create some form of "writer's intent" argument of what COULD happen. Which would be slightly valid if there was only no contradicting evidence that can be found.
However, when there are ACTUAL on-panel scenes where the results/aftermath of the said attack contradict YOUR interpretation of the character statement, then we go by actual on-panel scenes.
Going by Galan's posted evidences, there is stronger evidence pointing out that DS didn't get "erased" at all by that attack. Now if you want to say that the evidences he provided has inherent flaws, then be my guest. Just don't operate under the assumption that you've somehow uncovered some sort of indisputable logical position when it is obviously standing on very shaky ground.
Originally posted by h1a8It also happened only due to him not being physical at the time. Had it been this easy isn't Superman a murderer for not doing this sooner ?
"[b]Everything is vibrations really."
"...And counter-vibrations that cancel them out"Everything means everything and not some things. [/B]
Originally posted by NibedicusVery well put. 👆
I can perhaps agree to DS (what remained of him, anyway) being "dispersed" or "shattered" (the art kinda alludes to that) but, cannot in any way, agree to an actual "erasure" just because Superman just used the word "cancel" vaguely unless you have proof of the aftermath that explicitly says so.
_____
Sidenote: it's a good thing Morrison wanted to make FC more Superman-oriented. Johns would have just had Flash pop-in and whip up some counter-vibrations to cancel Darkseid out, in the span of a nanosecond or two-- a feat well within his ability:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16203972/1.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16203973/2.jpg.html
...And frankly, that would make [a LOT] more sense than Superman canceling out Darkseid by shouting a melody at him, imo.
Yeah, it was one of those "The f*ck? Did he just beat someone by singing at them?" moments.
Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed FC as a whole(mainly because of the superb tie-ins), but clearly Morrison likes to get high as f*ck before he writes some of this stuff. Lets be honest, nothing short of an LSD-induced stupor could produced something like Superman Beyond-- which was a really good story, but definitely not something a sober mind could dream up.
I always looked at Supes' FC "singing" as something like Blackbolt's scream, but with modulation control.
Seems logical that it would work on anyone who wasn't durable enough to withstand it (like DS in his very weakened state) Kind of like Superman's punch would work on anyone who isn't durable enough to take it.
I think Superman's "vibrations cancelling vibrations" speech is accurate, but he never says that he has the power to generate all-powerful vibrations.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, it was one of those "The f*ck? Did he just beat someone by singing at them?" moments.Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed FC as a whole(mainly because of the superb tie-ins), but clearly Morrison likes to get high as f*ck before he writes some of this stuff. Lets be honest, nothing short of an LSD-induced stupor could produced something like Superman Beyond-- which was a really good story, but definitely not something a sober mind could dream up.
👆
