Originally posted by The_Tempest
1. Except that if we take the praise completely and literally... it indicates Kenobi is a better duelist than Mace or Yoda... which you conceded earlier wasn't the case... in fact you admit the praise contains inherent hyperbole... so what you're telling me is that you're using admittedly(!) unreliable quotes to affirm Kenobi's superiority over Fisto... this is problematic for obvious reasons...2. I believe Fisto was... (Wookieepedia says as much, anyway)... but I can't confirm it at this time... either way, tho, what does Kenobi's skills as a tactician (his only relevant skill as a general) have to do with exceeding Fisto as a swordsman?
3. Even if Obi-Wan has an "edge" in accolades... that doesn't undermine my point which is that the two are comparable...
4. Of course he's one of the best and a master of his form... that was never in dispute... but you're moving the goalpost here... if you want to take the praise literally (and you already admitted it's hyerbolic) then you must accept that Obi-Wan is a better swordsman than Mace and Yoda... even though we know he's not...
And per the script and the book, Obi-Wan was selected due to his cunning and experience on all things Grievous... not because he was a better swordsman than Fisto...
4. No... you said "Sidious wasn't even known about when Mace sent Kenobi on his mission"... but the book indicates Sidious was definitely known about... he was in the Council's thoughts as they planned their entire move... they just didn't know he was the Supreme Chancellor... but they knew about him and knew very well that he might take the opportunity to strike... So what that means is they sent Obi-Wan after a relative noob (Grievous) knowing full well that the real badass (Sidious) was still lurking about...
a. They knew Sidious was operating... they knew he might very well take that moment to strike... and indeed counted on it, hence the entire ruse to send Yoda and Obi-Wan away... and per the book and the script, the only two reasons Obi-Wan was given the assignment was because of his "cunning" and "experience" with Grievous... if it were a simple matter of sending the best swordsman, then either Yoda or Mace would have gone... they didn't, meaning that it wasn't about sending the best duelist...
I never said that Fisto being left behind was proof he was better... I'm simply pointing out that I could twist that just like you're twisting Obi-Wan's assignment to hunt down Grievous is proof that he's better than Fisto... either way, your argument fails.
b. lol no. If they sent their best away... they'd have sent Mace and Yoda... per the book and the script, Obi-Wan was sent because of his cunning and experience with Grievous... [b]not
because he was the best swordsman lmao... so it's you who fell for my trap as per the norm... 😉No... that would be you...
It's hyperbole because a.) you admitted it was and b.) the only way the statement isn't hyperbole is if we accept Obi-Wan is a better duelist than Yoda and Mace... If and when you get around that, we'll talk.
By exposure, he was put in charge of more tasks than Mace or Yoda as well... hell, we've seen Ahsoka involved in more operations during the Clone Wars... guess she's a better fighter than Mace, Yoda, and Kit as well huh...?
Both were members of the Jedi Council, both were Jedi Masters, and both were masters of their forms... the only higher rank Kenobi may have on Fisto (and that's only possible) is as a general in the army... just like Tarkin is higher rank as an admiral... guess he could outfight Fisto too lmao....
Fisto beat Grievous whereas Grievous has beaten Obi-Wan lmao...
By virtue of more exposure... comparing them to their respective duels with Grievous, their accolades, their rank and station, and their endorsement from other characters... they're on par...
It can't be too cut and dry given your propensity for lying and liberal use of red herrings... bottom line is that Fisto is a Jedi Master of the High Council, like Obi-Wan... is a "celebrated swordsman" like Obi-Wan... spanked Grievous like Obi-Wan... is fodder for Sidious like Obi-Wan... and receives generous praise from Obi-Wan himself as one of the best swordsmen ever.
But keep telling yourself that Obi-Wan is a better duelist because he may have had higher rank as a military officer (like Tarkin lmao) and Mace's debunked pep-talk lmao. [/B]
Is it not canon narration was my question big buddy? The answer is yes it is correct? Even if we don't take it totally literally (which I agree in not doing) it's still high praise for Kenobi no matter how you slice it.
It was said by you that they are comparable rank and accolandes... others even claimed Fisto's were better than Kenobi... You would concede that having a rank of General is an accolade... Thus, Kenobi achieving a higher rank and put in charge of forces than Fisto wasn't... only strengthens the position that Keonbi has more accolades and given more responsibility and tough assignments for a reason. Further... last time I checked being Tactician can also play out in a duel not just commanding forces correct?
I would choose the phrase somewhat comparable over comparable when we look at the actual accolades.
Again being cunning and a great tactician can be and has been a part of a one v one fight. Thus kenobi being fisto decisive superior in this regard could make the difference in a battle between the two. Him being sent after the General is just another task and check in the column of kenobi. Bein given such tasks over another for whatever reason can only strengthen the case for kenobi, not just something you'd like swept under the rug. Doesn't work that way. That relative noob they sent kenobi to go after.. wasn't taken down and captured by Mace.. Fisto and a host of othe jedi and a thorn in their beloved republic. So clearly it was a tough task, and one that yet again, Fisto was given while kenobi was.
Sidious wasn't known about and what I said was spot on. The terms I used can be used to say they didn't know who he was, which is clearly true. They didn't know who he was and didnt know if he would strike. What they did know is that they needed to end a thorn in their side and needed that task accomplished. Period. If somehow that brought the sith master out of hiding.. well that's just icing on the cake. You act like the main point in sending Kenobi and yoda away was to bring him out... It wasn't. They needed tasks accomplished and also wanted to find out who Sidious was. Why not kill two birds with one stone if you can.
You can't have it both ways... You can't go well they wanted to send some of the best away so that Sidious would come out.. and then go.. well just cause they sent away Kenobi doesn't mean he's one of the best. No, that is exactly what it means when we follow your logical line of thinking you tried to present. That is EXACTLY what that means. People view Yoda as above Mace... So essentially they sent their very best away and had no hesitation in doing so. but of course they needed their second best aroudn in case he did come out which is why Mace stayed. Sending General kenobi away (also one of the best) WHILE also having him do a task that mace.. Fisto and many other jedi couldn't get done is a feather in kenobi's cap. No other way to look at it.
You can't use fisto not having enough exposure as a pillar for your argument that he's as good. Doesn't work that way. That might be the worst fallacy you've used yet. We go by feats on this site correct? That is the no. 1 variable in evaluating people in a vs. forum correct? People with less feats and less exposure... well that is just how the cookie crumbles as they won't have the feats to back up their case. You don't get to twist that into.. well if he would've gotten more exposure he would've done more. That is again assuming your own conclusion with facts not in evidence. Doesn't work that way. He wasn't given as many task and all we can gleam from that unless specifically stated otherwise is tha the wasn't as good as kenobi. Kenobi was given the tough jobs and carried them out. Fisto might have been able to but that is pure conjecture on your part. All we can go by is what what we have.. that is our evidence and how we build our case. We don't go... well if I had four arms i'd be the UFC champion is just didn't have that chance... well yeah but who cares I don't.
Using that line of thinking presents a slippery slope and a false dichotomy all wrapped into one. There is zero proof that fisto would've done better at all. In fact, he could've made himself look worse and like a weak feeb had he been given more exposure. I could argue jefferson Farfan (clearly made up) jedi didn't get exposure but ahd he.. he would've kicked ass and been one of the best ever. That isn't a valid argument as it would require somebody prove a negative. I don't need to disprove what Fisto could've done had he been give more exposure, neither do I need to use conjecture to theorize what he could've done. He didn't do it and that is all we can go by.
Bottom line is.. Kenobi has received more accolades... achieved a higher rank in a quicker period of time.... been given more tough task and responsibility.. and has beaten better people and has more feats. There is simply no way around those facts in evidence. No amount of red herrings.. assuming your own conclusion and uisng a false dichotomy can change those facts.