ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi Vs ROTS Kit Fisto

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
1. Being on his stomach and unable to defend himself doesn't suggest that Fisto had him at his mercy? What's the difference in Fisto putting grievous down in a more disadvantageous position than Ventress putting him down in a less disadvantageous position? At least he was facing her and was in an easier position to get back up.

There is no reason to believe Grievous was defenseless against Fisto. Just look at how quickly he got up.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
2. That's because Grievous had his army there at the time, whereas with Fisto, his magnaguards were nowhere in sight. And as I said, Fisto allowed Grievous to get back up, other than that Grievous was at his mercy, and Fisto had good opportunity to finish him off.

Even if we assume Grievous was defenseless, Fisto did not press his advantage and therefore did not defeat Grievous. It's like arguing that Sidious defeated Windu because of this scene right here:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
3. When we consider all of their fights, she has beat Kenobi more than he has her, and she has also stomped Kenobi on two occasions, one time being when he had Anakin's help.

Really, it seems pretty even. And where was the second time she "stomped Kenobi". The only time I can recall is the duel where Ventress powers have increased dramatically, so much so that Sidious wants Dooku to kill her, and she was fueled by her rage at being betrayed. Not really your typical Ventress there.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kenobi never easily defeated her the way she has him, he's merely bested her a few times. But he's also had more opportunities to fight her than Fisto has. The only time Fisto has dueled her, was when she had an advantage over him, whereas she has outright dominated Kenobi when Kenobi had the advantage over her. In fact, there were a couple of times she fought off both Anakin and Kenobi at the same time. So if we put her as Fisto's superior based on his single performance against her, than it's only fair to put her as Kenobi's superior based on all his performances against her, especially since she has downed him in far more easier fashions than she did with Fisto.

No, it's really not. There have almost always been a sorta parity between the two (Ventress/Kenobi) and they came across as equals. Yes, she has humiliated Kenobi on one occasion but that was obviously not your typical Ventress.

Fisto didn't DEFEAT GG with easy like so many are saying. Him putting him down.. ISN'T defeating him. We can speculate all we want about what could've happened IF Fisto pressed his advantage. The fact is though, he didn't, and chose instead to grab and mic and gloat. If he had tried to attack there is literally ZERO way to say The General could've have defended himself and rose. None. So, let's stop acting like Fisto beat GG when he had him on hte gorund. He didn't.

Just like people need to stop talking about a SPARRING match between Kenobi and Fisto. Not only was it a weaker version of Kenobi NOT in this thread.. .It's SPARRING.. and doesn't count nearly the same as a life and death fight. That is when you're "all in" and going for broke. Sparring has none of those same elements and emotions of a life and death fight. In fact, it wasn't even two enemies sparring it was two friends which is even worse. Basically it counts for very little.

Originally posted by ares834
There is no reason to believe Grievous was defenseless against Fisto. Just look at how quickly he got up.

Kit and Ventress both had Grievous floored, except Kit had him in a worse position to defend himself, which was on his stomach. Just because Grievous had no army there at the time to call on for help when he was floored, and the fact that Fisto allowed Grievous to get back up, doesn't mean Ventress did better.

Consider the circumstance.

Originally posted by ares834
Even if we assume Grievous was defenseless, Fisto did not press his advantage and therefore did not defeat Grievous. It's like arguing that Sidious defeated Windu because of this scene right here:

Really bad comparison. Windu was on his feet and had room to give ground.

Grievous was on his stomach and in a worse position than what Ventress had him in.

Originally posted by ares834
Really, it seems pretty even. And where was the second time she "stomped Kenobi". The only time I can recall is the duel where Ventress powers have increased dramatically, so much so that Sidious wants Dooku to kill her, and she was fueled by her rage at being betrayed. Not really your typical Ventress there.

She's won more times against him than he has her, and has stomped him in ways he hasn't her. So when considering all their duels, Ventress comes off as the superior duelist to Kenobi. And yes during their last fight, Ventress was fueled by rage (but it didn't seem to reach it's peak until they defeated her in the saber duel), but Kenobi also had Anakin there helping him. Similarly, during her fight with Grievous, Ventress also seemed fueled with rage: she had lost a nightsister that she seemingly got attached to, and her rage seemed even more fueled after Grievous sent her flying with a kick. Her screams and shouts, something she usually does when she's angry, suggests she was fueled with rage. Plus she was on a world which is radiated with the dark side.

As for Sidious's paranoia, I don't see how that's irrelevant, considering that her increased power didn't allow her to do substantially better against Grievous than Fisto did. Furthermore, Sidious could have just been testing Dooku's loyalty. It just doesn't make sense that her powers caused a disturbance in the force, but then suddenly Dooku tells Sidious that she's dead (which she wasn't), the disturbance is no longer there? It seems as if Sidious would have still been able to sense her since she survived. I never did get that.

Originally posted by ares834
No, it's really not. There have almost always been a sorta parity between the two (Ventress/Kenobi) and they came across as equals. Yes, she has humiliated Kenobi on one occasion but that was obviously not your typical Ventress.

It's just not really fair to say Kenobi is a better duelist than Fisto based on their performances against Ventress. The only time Fisto has fought her was when she had an advantage over him, whereas Kenobi has lost to her during that same encounter, but has had other opportunities to refight her. And while Kenobi has barely bested Ventress a few of those fights, he's also had far worse performances against her than Fisto's one fight against her.

BTW, I'm done with the argument. As with Kenobi, I don't find Ventress to be much better than Fisto. I think they all are pretty much on par with each other, TBH.

Also, @KT, shut up.

Concession accepted.

Getting knocked down isn't losing. Do you know how many comic book fights and fights in movies has this person knocking another down.. then gloating about it instead of pressing the advantage? Literally thousands of genre's do this and we do go to all of them... Ohhh yeah they really won cause they could've finished it.. sorry doesn't work that way. Nice job failing again at trying to make a point.

Sparring.. SPARRING... are we really talking about sparring or you failing at making another point??

Alright, then Ventress did not defeat the General either: with that taken into account, Kenobi's performance in RotS is the best of the three followed by Kit's with Ventress's trailing last.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Concession accepted.

Getting knocked down isn't losing. Do you know how many comic book fights and fights in movies has this person knocking another down.. then gloating about it instead of pressing the advantage? Literally thousands of genre's do this and we do go to all of them... Ohhh yeah they really won cause they could've finished it.. sorry doesn't work that way. Nice job failing again at trying to make a point.

Sparring.. SPARRING... are we really talking about sparring or you failing at making another point??

Stop being an idiot. Yeah, it wasn't a smart move on Fisto's part when he could have finished Grievous off then and there, but it does show superiority, especially seeing how after he let's Grievous back up, he's still on the winning end of the fight, which is why Grievous relied on help.

And sparring matches are a way of testing each other skill and ability. So while they may not be aiming to kill, but if they both are holding back equally, and if one of them is getting the better of the other in the sparring match, it would suggest that he may be the better duelist. And in the case of Kenobi and Fisto, Fisto was holding back even more than Kenobi was, and he came off as a better swordsman than Kenobi. Hell, Kenobi even admits it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kit and Ventress both had Grievous floored, except Kit had him in a worse position to defend himself, which was on his stomach. Just because Grievous had no army there at the time to call on for help when he was floored, and the fact that Fisto allowed Grievous to get back up, doesn't mean Ventress did better.

Consider the circumstance.

You keep bringing this up and I honestly don't care. You're assuming that Fisto had him beat. There is no way to prove he did. And, ultimately, it doesn't matter as Fisto failed to press his advantage. Therefore, he didn't win. Ventress did. She forced Grievous to revert to outside help to avoid her finishing blow.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
She's won more times against him than he has her, and has stomped him in ways he hasn't her. So when considering all their duels, Ventress comes off as the superior duelist to Kenobi.

Can you give me your list of duels.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And yes during their last fight, Ventress was fueled by rage (but it didn't seem to reach it's peak until they defeated her in the saber duel), but Kenobi also had Anakin there helping him. Similarly, during her fight with Grievous, Ventress also seemed fueled with rage: she had lost a nightsister that she seemingly got attached to, and her rage seemed even more fueled after Grievous sent her flying with a kick. Her screams and shouts, something she usually does when she's angry, suggests she was fueled with rage. Plus she was on a world which is radiated with the dark side.

She is a darksider, of course she is fueled by rage and anger. But this time it seems to be far different. Heck, she managed to lock both Anakin and Obi-Wan in a force choke. Clearly she was operating at a far higher level then normal.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As for Sidious's paranoia, I don't see how that's irrelevant, considering that her increased power didn't allow her to do substantially better against Grievous than Fisto did. Furthermore, Sidious could have just been testing Dooku's loyalty. It just doesn't make sense that her powers caused a disturbance in the force, but then suddenly Dooku tells Sidious that she's dead (which she wasn't), the disturbance is no longer there? It seems as if Sidious would have still been able to sense her since she survived. I never did get that.

It's Clone Wars dude. Plot Holes are a dime a dozen.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
BTW, I'm done with the argument. As with Kenobi, I don't find Ventress to be much better than Fisto. I think they all are pretty much on par with each other, TBH.

With all the evidence, there is no way Fisto is on par with Ventress.

Fisto is below Kenobi. Why is this still going?

If you read the posts, you'd know everyone has agreed to that.

Ares, you are not considering the circumstances. Grievous relied on out side interference because it was an option at the time, whereas it wasn't when he was floored by Fisto. Fisto didn't win because he chose not to finish Grievous off, but when they went another round, Fisto was still on the winning end of the duel. And when an outside source became available to Grievous, he relied on it.

Again, consider the circumstance.

And yes, she choked both Anakin and Kenobi at the same time when her rage reached it's peak after they defeated her and she was desperate. There is nothing to suggest that she was in anymore of a rage-enhanced stated during the actual duel than when she dueled with Grievous. And as I said, which you keep ignoring, she was on a dark side nexus when she fought Grievous. Therefore, she may have also been operating at a far greater lever during her duel with Grievous as well.

I gave you at least 2 defeats she had over Obi Wan. Actually I gave you 2 stomps. There are a few other times she has defeated him in the comics I believe. And then there is another time she fought off both Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time. Now, can you list any notable defeats that Kenobi has over her.

Considering she didn't do substantially better against Grievous than Fisto did, despite fighting harder and having more of an advantage over Grievous than Fisto did, there is evidents to suggest that Fisto is on par with her. You keep suggesting she did better against Grievous just because Grievous relied on outside interference when it was available to him at the time, which is the same thing he did when it was available during his duel with Fisto. That said, the only time she showed superiority over Fisto was when she had an advantage over him, which was the only time they fought.

As far as the "plot hole," it may have been a plot hole or it just may be that Sidious was just throwing around his authority and testing Dooku. IDK, is there a canon source that says Sidious found her as a threat?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Stop being an idiot. Yeah, it wasn't a smart move on Fisto's part when he could have finished Grievous off then and there, but it does show superiority, especially seeing how after he let's Grievous back up, he's still on the winning end of the fight, which is why Grievous relied on help.

And sparring matches are a way of testing each other skill and ability. So while they may not be aiming to kill, but if they both are holding back equally, and if one of them is getting the better of the other in the sparring match, it would suggest that he may be the better duelist. And in the case of Kenobi and Fisto, Fisto was holding back even more than Kenobi was, and he came off as a better swordsman than Kenobi. Hell, Kenobi even admits it.

What you don't understand is that you can't say FOR CERTAIN he could've won if he pressed the advantage. Which is why you saying he could have is nothign more than speculation. I could very well say The General woud've defended himself just as easily as you could say he couldn't have. Which is to say... you have zero proof Fisto could've finished the fight. Period. Fisto did good against The General but so has Kenobi and Kenobi as the added advantage of beating better people.

What is so hard to understand here? Sparring counts for very little when it comes to a life and death fight. It's sparring. They are both holding back and they both like one another. Sparring with an enemy would be a little more relevant cause at least you'd have some tension and anger there. Sparring among friends holding back is just meh. What makes it even laughable and not just meh.. is that this was a weaker kenobi than in this thread. Making even bringing it up LULZ worthy

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ares, you are not considering the circumstances. Grievous relied on out side interference because it was an option at the time, whereas it wasn't when he was floored by Fisto. Fisto didn't win because he chose not to finish Grievous off, but when they went another round, Fisto was still on the winning end of the duel. And when an outside source became available to Grievous, he relied on it.

Yes, Fisto was winning the duel. But he didn't win.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And yes, she choked both Anakin and Kenobi at the same time when her rage reached it's peak after they defeated her and she was desperate. There is nothing to suggest that she was in anymore of a rage-enhanced stated during the actual duel than when she dueled with Grievous.

Yes there is. She had just been betrayed by Dooku and she choked out both Anakin and Kenobi... That's the level she is operating at. She is showing far more power than she has ever displayed before.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And as I said, which you keep ignoring, she was on a dark side nexus when she fought Grievous. Therefore, she may have also been operating at a far greater lever during her duel with Grievous as well.

Ah, my bad. That's a fair point. Sorta throws the whole Grievous debate out as we don't know how powerful of a nexus it is. So we gotta compare via the Fisto/Vettress duel which still leaves Ventress superior.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I gave you at least 2 defeats she had over Obi Wan. Actually I gave you 2 stomps. There are a few other times she has defeated him in the comics I believe. And then there is another time she fought off both Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time. Now, can you list any notable defeats that Kenobi has over her.

Where? You gave me one duel where she defeated Kenobi (the duel after she was betrayed by Dooku). That's it. As for defeats, there is Kenobi's defeat of her at Teth and in, of all things, the Cetus Deception.

According to starwars.com:

Bordering dense swamplands is the massive stone fortresses of the Nightsisters, a witch clan capable of wielding unique magic fueled by the life forces of the planet.

Well, Ventress never uses the "unique magic" that other Nightsisters such as Talzin use. But Dathomir is a dark side nexus.

It is indeed. But, as you mentioned, the nexus is strong enough for Talzin to make illusions there, but not on other planets.

Fisto's performance, considering the above, is certainly superior.

Proof that Talzin can't use illusions on other planets? Plus, the quote you posted claims Talzin is using the "life force of the planet" not necessarily tapping into a dark side nexus.

So, no. Fisto's performance isn't certainly superior.

I thought it was pretty clear: ''unique magic''?

Uh. I'd like proof that one needs to tap into the nexus before receiving an amp.

I don't see how. Fisto's performance is already as good as hers; that she did it on a nexus, while Kit did it on Grievous's turf, changes the tide even more.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I thought it was pretty clear: ''unique magic''?

Yeah, that seems to indicate it's the Nightsister's unique magic. Not that it can only be performed on Dathomir.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Uh. I'd like proof that one needs to tap into the nexus before receiving an amp.

Now you're just splitting hairs. The quote says it's the "life forces of the planet" that fuels Talzin's magics not a dark side nexus.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't see how. Fisto's performance is already as good as hers; that she did it on a nexus, while Kit did it on Grievous's turf, changes the tide even more.

Fisto's performance wasn't as good. Ventress actually beat Grievous.

Kenobi ROADS THIS. Fisto lasts 7seconds and gets 3blocks AT BEST. I would give fisto 4seconds against Kenobi. Kenobi beat Anakin who was said to be above Sidious. Lol I know many of you hate Kenobi but DAMN!.