ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi Vs ROTS Kit Fisto

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Fisto beat kenobi under what circumstances?

You mean evidence like Fisto getting owned by sids in seconds... Maul lasting longer against sids.. and Kenobi beating maul.. LIKE that??? You mean like Kenobi beating Anakin.. something Fisto would never be able to do. You mean like that kinda evidence? Stuff I clearly stated already.

Look bro the facts are right in front of you. I didnt mean to be rude but at the same time you have to look at the facts. Fisto beat Kenobi in a friendly duel and he was holding back. Kenobi did not really beat Maul he got lucky because Maul was arrogant but later Maul PWNd Kenobi and even in the battle in TPM maul beat Kenobi in the duel. I admit that in Kenobi's good showings that he is spectacular like against Anakin but he is not consistant and that must be taken into account. Once again sorry if I offended you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi has better performances against both Ventress and Grievous.

Better preformances against Grievous? hardly. Fisto outdueled Grievous while Kenobi has only outdueled him once while every other time he ends up running away to his mother. Like I have said earlier, Kenobi has good showings but he is not as consistant as Fisto which gives Fisto an edge. I would say Kenobi wins 5/10 because it really depends on Kenobi and if he has a good showing or not.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Are you going to argue that Kit Fisto is twice as fast as Kenobi?

Logically it would put him at a disadvantage, as the lack of precision in his technique would make it harder to attack or defend against blows from a more precise duelist, most notably a Makashi user.

You claimed Fisto is not as fast as Grievous, but his duel with Grievous suggests otherwise, unless you're going to argue that Grievous held back his speed to purposely get tooled by Fisto, which would be a rather silly notion.

Not necessarily. Though some styles may have their advantages or disadvantages when it comes to other forms, but one's skill as a duelist is not limited to his/her style. If that were the case, then Kenobi should be good in defense and only defense. What you're saying doesn't make any sense. If Fisto's saber form is suited for fighting against multiple opponents or multiple sabers, then it would require him to have a very good defense. After all, defending against multiple opponents/sabers would logically be much harder than defending against one opponent/saber, unless the opponent is just that much better or faster than him, which Kenobi isn't. Just because Fisto's style was made for fighting against multiple opponents, doesn't mean he can only fight against multiple opponents. Again, that doesn't make any sense. He does have experience in fighting single opponents. Come to think of it, Fisto's mastery of his preferred form would actually suggest that he would be a far more gifted fighter than Kenobi, considering that not only would his form require him to have an exceptional defenses, but it a very good offense as well (seeing how he is noted for his speed and aggressiveness), but that's if you really want to base your argument on which form a user uses.

I don't too much base my arguments on what form one uses, because sometimes the forms don't make any sense.

Originally posted by Arab Jedi
Look bro the facts are right in front of you. I didnt mean to be rude but at the same time you have to look at the facts. Fisto beat Kenobi in a friendly duel and he was holding back. Kenobi did not really beat Maul he got lucky because Maul was arrogant but later Maul PWNd Kenobi and even in the battle in TPM maul beat Kenobi in the duel. I admit that in Kenobi's good showings that he is spectacular like against Anakin but he is not consistant and that must be taken into account. Once again sorry if I offended you.

You didn't seriosly use Fisto beating CLONE WARS kenobi in SPARRING match as proof did you? That is like the worst kinad of proof possible. Not only wasn't it Master Kenobi it was a damn sparring match... i.e. they were holding back.. BOTH of them. Fighting to the death is substantially different than mere sparring. The fact of the matter is... Kenobi has the better feats and has beaten better people.

Originally posted by Arab Jedi
Better preformances against Grievous? hardly. Fisto outdueled Grievous while Kenobi has only outdueled him once while every other time he ends up running away to his mother. Like I have said earlier, Kenobi has good showings but he is not as consistant as Fisto which gives Fisto an edge. I would say Kenobi wins 5/10 because it really depends on Kenobi and if he has a good showing or not.

Nice twisting of the facts, but it's almost always Grievous whose running away from Kenobi. The only time I've seen Kenobi running is once in Season 1 when he had to get off the ship so was trying to avoid a confrontation, and once in season 5 when Grievous's forces were overwhelming Kenobi's.

On all other occasions Grievous runs like a b**** from Kenobi. He never did from Fisto. Although Fisto did do very well against him. But then so did Koth with a wounded arm. Heck even Ashoka was stalemating Grievous as well in Season 5.
But Kenobi has the quickest win against him in the second episode of season 3 (although he takes a few licks first) and he also has the most convincing Saber win over him in ROTS.

And I'm still missing the evidence that Fisto is a match for the likes of Ventress, Opress and even Maul, like Kenobi has proven himself to be late into TCW.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You didn't seriosly use Fisto beating CLONE WARS kenobi in SPARRING match as proof did you? That is like the worst kinad of proof possible. Not only wasn't it Master Kenobi it was a damn sparring match... i.e. they were holding back.. BOTH of them. Fighting to the death is substantially different than mere sparring. The fact of the matter is... Kenobi has the better feats and has beaten better people.

It was actually very early Clone War Kenobi, just after AOTC. Before Kenobi was even a Master with a seat on the Council.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You claimed Fisto is not as fast as Grievous, but his duel with Grievous suggests otherwise, unless you're going to argue that Grievous held back his speed to purposely get tooled by Fisto, which would be a rather silly notion.

Not necessarily. Though some styles may have their advantages or disadvantages when it comes to other forms, but one's skill as a duelist is not limited to his/her style. If that were the case, then Kenobi should be good in defense and only defense. What you're saying doesn't make any sense. If Fisto's saber form is suited for fighting against multiple opponents or multiple sabers, then it would require him to have a very good defense. After all, defending against multiple opponents/sabers would logically be much harder than defending against one opponent/saber, unless the opponent is just that much better or faster than him, which Kenobi isn't. Just because Fisto's style was made for fighting against multiple opponents, doesn't mean he can only fight against multiple opponents. Again, that doesn't make any sense. He does have experience in fighting single opponents. Come to think of it, Fisto's mastery of his preferred form would actually suggest that he would be a far more gifted fighter than Kenobi, considering that not only would his form require him to have an exceptional defenses, but it a very good offense as well (seeing how he is noted for his speed and aggressiveness), but that's if you really want to base your argument on which form a user uses.

I don't too much base my arguments on what form one uses, because sometimes the forms don't make any sense.

1. Not as much that he held back his speed as much as Fisto was able to use Shii-Cho's major advantage fighting in wide swoops intercepting multiple slashes at once, while using dual blades (which he won't have in this fight). Kit Fisto can't strike faster than Grievous's four arms can, therefore his speed shouldn't be great enough to break Kenobi's defenses either way.

2. Kenobi would only be good at defense, just as Luminara Unduli has no real offensive capability with a lightsaber other than blast deflection. Almost all of Kenobi's offensive traits come from his Ataru and Niman specializations. :>

3. Specialization means a lot more in a fight than you may realize. Skill Sets in a battle can mean just as much as an individual's power or skill level.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. Not as much that he held back his speed as much as Fisto was able to use Shii-Cho's major advantage fighting in wide swoops intercepting multiple slashes at once, while using dual blades (which he won't have in this fight). Kit Fisto can't strike faster than Grievous's four arms can, therefore his speed shouldn't be great enough to break Kenobi's defenses either way.

Grievous began his duel with Fisto using all four blades, and was disarmed of one of them rather quickly, and even after that, Grievous still had the advantage of three lightsabers to Fisto's two, just like he had the advantage of having two lightsabers to Kenobi's one. In the movie, Grievous wasn't using all four of his sabers during majority of his and Kenobi's duel, as Kenobi disarmed him of two rather quickly, but was still seemingly having a bit of trouble with Grievous's speed, whereas Fisto's attacks were forcing Grievous on the defensive throughout the entire duel. It was Fisto's speed that forced Grievous back.

And basically what you told me was Fisto's form was better at defending against Grievous speed than Kenobi's form, except you tried to suggest that this was also due to Fisto having an advantage, which he didn't. He didn't have any more of an advantage over Grievous than Kenobi did.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
2. Kenobi would only be good at defense, just as Luminara Unduli has no real offensive capability with a lightsaber other than blast deflection. Almost all of Kenobi's offensive traits come from his Ataru and Niman specializations. :>

Which is why I said one's skill as a duelist is not limited to his/her preferred lightsaber form. Skill can come from experience or working knowledge of other forms. And as I said, Fisto has experience in fighting single opponents.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
3. Specialization means a lot more in a fight than you may realize. Skill Sets in a battle can mean just as much as an individual's power or skill level.

And Fisto's preferred form specializes in fighting multiple opponents, which would suggest that his mastery in his chosen form would require that he have a good defense, as defending against multiple opponents is a lot harder than defending against just one. I mean, he was the only one out of the three masters to be able to block a few blows from Palpatine, and Palpatine is one of the most precise and fastest strikers in the mythos, seeing how he was able to one shot two sabermasters in seconds. Furthermore, Fisto is noted for his speed and aggressiveness as a fighter which suggests that he is also very good at offensive capabilities. So I'm not seeing where Kenobi has a huge advantage over Fisto.

That's why I don't too much base my arguments on one's preferred saber form, I rather go by feats (how good they are at defense and offense, and how fast or strong they are). Although, as I said, some forms may have their advantages and disadvantages when it comes to other forms, but most of the time it comes down to how good the individual utilizes their skills and talent. And judging from both Kenobi's and Fisto's respective performances against the same opponents, they don't seem too far apart, and I'm not seeing a huge advantage on either side, other than Fisto being faster and more aggressive, and Kenobi possibly being better at defense, but that doesn't grant Kenobi a guaranteed victory over Fisto. Grievous has penetrated Kenobi's defense with physical attacks numerous of times, as has Pre Viszla, and Ventress, so I'm not seeing why it's impossible for Fisto.

Wow talk about spamming. Found this thread like half way down the second page. Anyway:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I'm still missing the evidence that Fisto is a match for the likes of Ventress, Opress and even Maul, like Kenobi has proven himself to be late into TCW.

Because lets face it, beating Grievous and a near AOTC Kenobi just doesn't cut it when comparing to the likes of Late CW Ventress, Opress and Maul.

Given that Kenobi struggles with Grievous, it does.

Any proof Ventress>Fisto?.

None. Fisto has better speed feats and downed Grievous easier (Grievous never got a hit on him, but he did on Ventress and Obi-Wan in RotS).

Not in the lightsaber battle.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
None. Fisto has better speed feats and downed Grievous easier (Grievous never got a hit on him, but he did on Ventress and Obi-Wan in RotS).

Dooku's statement that he pity's Grievous if he should face Kenobi in a fair one on one, late CW's in Labrynth of Evil seems to suggest otherwise.

Also Dooku states that Kenobi has gotten better.

Except we've seen Kenobi fight Grievous after LoE, and he hardly did better than Fisto.

What?

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Any proof Ventress>Fisto?.

Ventress beat Fisto.

Before engaging Ventress, Fisto and Kenobi face an army of X'Ting unarmed:

The underground lake's surface reflected flashes of red and yellow lightning as the energy field confining Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto lessened for an instant. He felt pain and fire as he lunged through, his lightsaber absorbing enough of the energy to keep the shield from frying him. It snapped back on swiftly enough to singe Kit's left heel as the Nautolan jumped free.

The protocol droid barked an order, and all of Ventress's allies laid their weapons down.

"Surely they're not surrendering," Kit said.

Ventress laughed. "By no means. I told them they don't stand a chance against you with blasters."

"And ..."

"And now," she said, "defend yourselves, Jedi."

The young X'Ting thugs moved in. Obi-Wan groaned. He couldn't simply cut them down. Young and foolish, they believed they were acting for the good of the hive.

"I know what you're thinking," Ventress grinned. "You wish you could talk to them. A pity you don't speak X'Ting."

"Obi-Wan?" Kit asked.

"Well, we can't just slaughter them."

No.. ? Kit seemed to want to ask. "They're hardly innocent." The Nautolan radiated urgency, the pull of Form I strong as he prepared for battle. Ventress was the key. They had to stop her. And if these idiots put themselves between them and Dooku's minion, the woman who might be the salvation of millions, that was their misfortune.

But... it would be a massacre. Obi-Wan searched his conscience, and made a hard decision. "We must do this without our lightsabers."

Kit seemed to struggle with the idea, and then finally sighed. "A bit of exercise, then," he said, and reluctantly extinguished his blade.

Obi-Wan dampened his as well, and as if on cue, Ventress's foolish young X'Ting allies attacked from every angle. Obi-Wan leaned away from the swipe of a durasteel crowbar, the edge of his foot cracking the X'Ting's knee as he did. A second youth jumped on him from behind. Obi-Wan gripped a primary right hand, a secondary left hand, and torqued: The X'Ting corkscrewed through the air and shattered a pile of boxes.

Kit Fisto snarled, surrendering to the pull of Form I's unarmed techniques. His attack was absolute fluidity, one motion flowing into the next without a wasted effort. Heads cracked, limbs twisted against their joints, and X'Ting flipped howling into the lake.

Ventress stood back, her eyes watching, and Obi-Wan knew she was waiting, learning about her opponents.

The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.

Obi-Wan's opponents had enthusiasm, but little technique. The Force blossomed within him, and time perception distended, slowing reality to a crawl. He had all the time he needed to slide out of the way of the blows, retaliating with perfect economy.

From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.

Who he touched went down. And those who went down, stayed down. Ventress might have gathered a rabble, but the youthful X'Ting were fearless, and fought as if for their lives.

Such an onslaught left no time for thought or planning, no room for pretty moves. There was only attack and defense, and precious little time for defense.

Obi-Wan himself could only attack and attack, taking the battle to them, creating his own timing and distancing, smashing his way toward Ventress.

Stingers bared, the young X'Ting came at them in waves. Obi-Wan calmed himself, using them as shields against each other, moving continuously and ferociously as he went.

Now ... a blow from the upper left quadrant. Obi-Wan was just a hair slow defending there, and a wicked knife slit his cloak. Again and again, he narrowly skirted disaster. She's watching? Obi-Wan thought. Let her.

Obi-Wan missed the moment, but Kit finally won his way through to Ventress. She raised her hand, and the X'Ting who had harried the Nautolan turned to attack Obi-Wan, leaving her to face Kit alone.

Now, finally, Kit drew his lightsaber. Ventress drew a pair of blazing, red blades. She inclined her head, breathing more quickly, lips curling into a smile.

"Finally," she said.

"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her.

-The Cestus Deception

Ventress studies Obi-Wan's and Kit's movements, revealing their lightsaber forms to her, granting another advantage:

Ventress stood back, her eyes watching, and Obi-Wan knew she was waiting, learning about her opponents.

The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.

-The Cestus Deception

Kit goes down via a kick to his jaw. Note how it's specifically mentioned that it was the first time that she had got a hit in:

He'd missed the engagement, but suddenly-Kit was down! Wounded and groggy from a kick in the jaw, for the first time Ventress had pierced his guard. Her left-hand saber sliced his arm but as sparks flew he dove away from her left blade, leaning into a glancing blow from her right.

-The Cestus Deception

Obi-Wan, after facing the same disadvantages Kit did, holds his own against Ventress:

He covered the distance between them with a single somersaulting leap. Asajj Ventress was extraordinarily quick, but her very ferocity gave Obi-Wan a hairline opening, a moment when he had the better leverage. He blocked Ventress's lightsabers, and managed to pin her blades down. Ventress was surprised, but in the next moment disengaged her right hand blade and slashed at his neck, attempting to behead him. There was no time for conscious thought, no time for anything but response as Obi-Wan ducked and spun back. Ventress drew his attention to the left and leapt into the air in a spinning kick that slammed Obi-Wan down into the dock. Once down, he never had a chance to get up again, found himself fighting from his back, wiggling and edging backwards, movement so limited that he knew the confrontation might be over within seconds. The first touch of desperation wormed its way through his emotional shields.

-The Cestus Deception

Kit, even when holding back, demonstrates superiority to Obi-Wan:

Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other's defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan's more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery.

-The Cestus Deception

Obi-Wan does equally well against both characters: against Kit, Kit was holding back; against Ventress, he was disadvantaged. More impressive performance? Kit.

Fisto>Ventress, simple.

Ventress vs Grievous. Ventress, in 23 seconds, is kicked and gained virtually no hit on him before the end (and this was on Ventress's turf):

YouTube video

Fisto vs Grievous. Fisto, in about 40 seconds, disarms Grievous of one os his blades, Force pushes him and forces him backward continously (and this was on Grievous's turf):

YouTube video

Kenobi vs Grievous. Kenobi, in about 35 seconds, disarms Grievous of two of his blades (and Force pushes him later on):

YouTube video

Point out the disparity between them, because I don't see it.

@Interpid NICE post I agree completely.