ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi Vs ROTS Kit Fisto

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Ventress vs Grievous. Ventress, in 23 seconds, is kicked and gained virtually no hit on him before the end (and this was on Ventress's turf):

Fisto vs Grievous. Fisto, in about 40 seconds, disarms Grievous of one os his blades, Force pushes him and forces him backward continously (and this was on Grievous's turf):

Kenobi vs Grievous. Kenobi, in about 35 seconds, disarms Grievous of two of his blades (and Force pushes him later on):

Point out the disparity between them, because I don't see it.

Well first the difference is quite clear:

Fisto resorted to a Force push, and still never actually defeated Grievous in the fight we saw lasting 40 seconds as you've pointed out.

Whilst Ventress in pure Saber combat completely defeats Grievous in 30 seconds flat.

And Kenobi in 35 seconds has cut off 2 of Grievous's arms. That's the most convincing Saber defeat we've seen against the General.

Lastly Ventress's defeat over Fisto was a convincing one. And we know as a fact that was a less powerful Ventress.

So now prove ROTS Fisto was more powerful than the one who faced Ventress, and prove he is on par with the likes of Late CW Ventress, Opress and Maul. Because taking 40 seconds to be on the winning side against Grievous with a combination of Sabers + Force push just doesn't cut it with the bigger leagues like Maul + Opress.

Whats even more damning evidence is that Filoni basically has flat out said that Opress's performance was better against the same foe- Sidious.

So where's this imaginary evidence that Fisto is in the same league as Ventress/Opress? Never mind Maul.

Originally posted by Arab Jedi
Better preformances against Grievous? hardly. Fisto outdueled Grievous while Kenobi has only outdueled him once while every other time he ends up running away to his mother. Like I have said earlier, Kenobi has good showings but he is not as consistant as Fisto which gives Fisto an edge. I would say Kenobi wins 5/10 because it really depends on Kenobi and if he has a good showing or not.

Bullshit. Fisto has less showings. He is not more consistent. He got stomped by Ventress in Cetus Deception.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Fisto>Ventress, simple.

No, it's not.

Here is the entirety of the fight (that you conveniently didn't post):

"Obi-Wan missed the moment, but Kit finally won his way through to Ventress. She raised her hand, and the X'Ting who had harried the Nautolan turned to attack Obi-Wan, leaving her to face Kit alone.

Now, finally, Kit drew his lightsaber. Ventress drew a pair of blazing, red blades. She inclined her head, breathing more quickly, lips curling into a smile.

"Finally," she said.

"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and swerved, collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands, knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.

Obi-Wan would have given his right hand to join. Or even to watch such a display. But he had his own worries, his own battle to fight.

He struggled with the urge to simply draw his lightsaber and slaughter the X'Ting. His enemies came on and on, struck quickly but clumsily, got in each other's way. Obi-Wan was direct in attack, and as elusive as a breeze.

He'd missed the engagement, but suddenly-Kit was down! Wounded and groggy from a kick in the jaw, for the first time Ventress had pierced his guard. Her left-hand saber sliced his arm but as sparks flew he dove away from her left blade, leaning into a glancing blow from her right.

Obi-Wan heard the scream but couldn't see the wound's severity. Kit rolled as Ventress came at him, splashing down into the lake. Ventress stood on the dock smiling hugely, arms and legs spread in triumph, laughing in that arctic voice."

Ventress utterly defeats Kit and there is absolutely no indication he that he was in anyway superior. He never gets a hit in and the duel seems to be fairly short.

It seems pretty clear he that Ventress is the superior combatant.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Ventress vs Grievous. Ventress, in 23 seconds, is kicked and gained virtually no hit on him before the end (and this was on Ventress's turf):

Fisto vs Grievous. Fisto, in about 40 seconds, disarms Grievous of one os his blades, Force pushes him and forces him backward continously (and this was on Grievous's turf):

Point out the disparity between them, because I don't see it.

How about the fact that Ventress actually wins? That's a pretty blatant disparity there.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You were correct. Now, the scene is obviously contradicted by the movie, but it's worth noting.

The statement does not make Fisto a superior swordsman, or even an equal in my opinion, but it just furthers the theory that Fisto would put up a very good fight.

I am normally one for supporting the novelization. But I really see no evidence that Yoda wouldn't slaughter Agen, Saesee, and Kit in the same manner Palpatine did, and then defeat Mace in a hard duel.

If Yoda had Kenobi with him, then it'd just be even easier for him to stomp the B-team.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Except we've seen Kenobi fight Grievous after LoE, and he hardly did better than Fisto.

What?

Kenobi, unlike Fisto did not start the battle on the offensive, he started on the defensive, intentionally.

Also Form I is offensive, Form III is defensive. And yet even on the defensive Kenobi managed to disarm Grievous of a saber faster than Fisto was.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well first the difference is quite clear:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fisto resorted to a Force push, and still never actually defeated Grievous in the fight we saw lasting 40 seconds as you've pointed out.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whilst Ventress in pure Saber combat completely defeats Grievous in 30 seconds flat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Kenobi in 35 seconds has cut off 2 of Grievous's arms. That's the most convincing Saber defeat we've seen against the General.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lastly Ventress's defeat over Fisto was a convincing one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And we know as a fact that was a less powerful Ventress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So now prove ROTS Fisto was more powerful than the one who faced Ventress, and prove he is on par with the likes of Late CW Ventress, Opress and Maul. Because taking 40 seconds to be on the winning side against Grievous with a combination of Sabers + Force push just doesn't cut it with the bigger leagues like Maul + Opress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whats even more damning evidence is that Filoni basically has flat out said that Opress's performance was better against the same foe- Sidious.

You know, the statement says only that: he did better in that situation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So where's this imaginary evidence that Fisto is in the same league as Ventress/Opress? Never mind Maul.

Originally posted by ares834
Ventress utterly defeats Kit and there is absolutely no indication he that he was in anyway superior. He never gets a hit in and the duel seems to be fairly short.

The text specifically notes that she only pierced his guard once, and this was Kit with huge disadvantages. If she'd been so-so superior, she'd been getting more than one hit in.

Originally posted by ares834
How about the fact that Ventress actually wins? That's a pretty blatant disparity there.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am normally one for supporting the novelization. But I really see no evidence that Yoda wouldn't slaughter Agen, Saesee, and Kit in the same manner Palpatine did, and then defeat Mace in a hard duel.

If Yoda had Kenobi with him, then it'd just be even easier for him to stomp the B-team.

I have no idea why you're quoting me, given that what you posted had absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kenobi, unlike Fisto did not start the battle on the offensive, he started on the defensive, intentionally.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also Form I is offensive, Form III is defensive. And yet even on the defensive Kenobi managed to disarm Grievous of a saber faster than Fisto was.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kenobi, unlike Fisto did not start the battle on the offensive, he started on the defensive, intentionally.

Also Form I is offensive, Form III is defensive. And yet even on the defensive Kenobi managed to disarm Grievous of a saber faster than Fisto was.

And unlike his battle with both Kenobi (and Ventress), Grievous started off the duel rotating all four blades at Fisto instead of two. And too, Kenobi had no other choice but to fight offensively because he couldn't match Grievous in speed, whereas Fisto could. Whether defense is Kenobi's preferred approach or not, the novel makes it clear that Grievous speed was a problem for Kenobi, therefore he had no other choice but to fight on the defensive. Also, Fisto could have defeated Grievous a lot sooner had he not been taunting him so much and had been more serious. Furthermore, Kenobi's had a lot more experience with Grievous than Fisto has, and has had history of consistent struggling against the General. ROTS is the one and only time Kenobi has handily defeated Grievous in a duel, whereas Fisto casually walked all over Grievous his very first try. Tell me why this is if Kenobi is such a greater fighter than Fisto.

Again, Ventress never "stomped" Fisto, she defeated him after an intense duel. I don't know where people get that she stomped him. And as Intrepid has pointed out, she was studying his moves in preparation for their fight while he was fighting through her minions, which gave her an advantage. Now, can you explain why Ventress has stomped Kenobi in seconds during their last fight, despite having to fight Anakin at the same time? As I said earlier in the thread, Kenobi may have had better performances against Ventress than Fisto, but he's also had far worse performances against her, which brings him down a bit when comparing their performances against her. So if I were you, I really wouldn't want to use Ventress as a way to try to prove Kenobi is superior to Fisto.

@Ares

In what way did Ventress win her fight with Grievous that Fisto didn't? Was it because Grievous ended up on the ground, or because he relied on help? Because those same exact things happened to/for Grievous during his battle with Fisto, except Grievous couldn't land any hits on Fisto like he did with Ventress. And unlike Fisto, Ventress was clearly frustrated and was visibly putting effort in defeating Grievous, whereas Fisto was much more calm and collect and seemingly taunting him, which seemed to suggest that he didn't actually find Grievous as much of a threat, IMO. Also, as Intrepid has also pointed out, Ventress's duel with Grievous was on her turf, Dathomir, which is radiated with the dark side, which might explain why she took him down in such a short period of time. Either way, Ventress didn't do much better than Fisto did, other than her duel with Grievous was quicker.

Ventress, against a blinded Luminara Unduli, fails to get any sort of advantage.

Fisto, as far as I know, in comparison to Unduli, is more skilled and faster, and has more accolades regarding skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Ventress, against a blinded Luminara Unduli, fails to get any sort of advantage.

Fisto, as far as I know, in comparison to Unduli, is more skilled and faster, and has more accolades regarding skill.

Originally posted by Vensai
Didn't Ventress overcome Luminara by the end and Ahsoka had to save her?
If anything, the showing is an accolade for Luminara that makes her comparable to Fisto since she held her own with a blinded eye and even matched her TK if I recall the episode

Point is, Fisto is a celebrated in terms of accolades, has impressive speed feats and greater skill showings than Luminara has. 👇

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It was even.

Point is, Fisto is a celebrated in terms of accolades, has impressive speed feats and greater skill showings than Luminara has. 👇

Yeah, because you obviously didn't get it the first time.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yeah, because you obviously didn't get it the first time.

I never said Fisto isn't below Kenobi, did I?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No one said that Kenobi was better than Fisto. But Kit's inferiority does not mean he cannot take three out of ten wins, does it?

In fact, in what you just quoted, I said Kit was inferior...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In fact, in what you just quoted, I said Kit was inferior...

It wasn't. I said that Kenobi's superiority does not equal a win in every fight they'd have.