Originally posted by Branlor Swift... when Captain Marvel saves him, sure. 👆
They were shown struggling to get up for a page and a panel as we actually seen them get 'beaten' (Spider-Man trapped, Cap put on his knees with a spell surrounding his head).I guess anytime Thor is shown to be blasted in the face he's knocked out, even if he's perfectly fine 2 pages later talking down to his enemy.
Originally posted by Branlor SwiftI can admit that a mind-controlled Thor can be defeated by a weaker Dr. Strange who was finally bringing his A-game. He was dismantling the Avengers one-by-one. That stopped by the time Captain Marvel finally managed a good shot in. In no small part, I'm sure, due to the exhaustion and efforts required to take on Thor.
Instead of admitting you're wrong, you're going with weaker Dr Strange one shotting Thor based on nothing?Well, as long as it makes you feel better. You may have the last word too. 👆
It that offends you, it shouldn't.
Originally posted by Sundipped
Ok.
Thor's looked better but if I go back to Marvel Premier Strange, he was absorbing elder god scale mystical energy which was said could destroy galaxies. Thor would get sucked dry.
Post scans if you can. I've learned to be weary of feats from Strange without analyzing context.
And Thor has dealt with energy on such a scale before as well.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I agree. Which Thor can repeat.Because Thor can make a giant storm, and it can be on the field while he carries on with whatever he needs to do. And he can do it quickly.
I'm not giving great odds for it, I just find it funny that something Thor does a lot in comics has been shown to be detrimental to Dr Strange.
But no, it doesn't make sense for Thor to summon a storm. I don't find it very probable that Dr Strange will utilize magic either.
You're not giving great odds ok cool, that's really all I wanted to hear.
Nice twist you put on those occurences. Magic instances>>>>>>>>...infinite >'s >storm instances.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
You're still deflecting though. If you disagree with my statement, then prove to me how Englehart writes a more powerful Strange.My 'joke' was meant for you to actually show something. But you'd rather deflect to how much of a rabid fanboy of Thor I am.
K, I'm a rabid Thor fanboy. Now show how dropping Englehart's name is relevant.
Ok that was a joke of yours. Just came off as too arrogant for me initially.
Classic Thor won't beat Marvel Premier black magic Strange. You know the one who couldn't even come to the 616 plane without indirectly destroying it after fighting Shuma. That's the best one to pick and has the greatest chances of emerging victorious.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Doc doesn't have to sit there though for Thor to break it.You made up a bunch of excuses that didn't ring true at all though. You might think you answered it, but I really doubt you feel confident about that. lol at lack of context though.
At this point in time, I really shouldn't have to prove Thor can break his shield without going all out. I could requote it, but then again, I could also move onto another decade and surely find an entirely new set of scans.
Either way the end result is the same; excuses being made for why 30 different beings can smash his shield, and why Thor couldn't repeat it.
Didn't ring true or you just chose to not accept them. Those "excuses" were stated on panel and many of them were even in the actual scans you posted. Go head lowball away all you want and go digging. It won't take away from the good showings.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
He got blown away from a blast that hit Thor directly and blew the entire team back.
http://i41.tinypic.com/k0olg3.jpgYou know who was closer to that attack than Strange? Everyone. Including Daredevil, Black Widow, and the like.
But yes he did take what looked like a weak lightning attack by Thor, and then he got trashed by Ms Marvel while he was using his shield...
http://i40.tinypic.com/11mgjk7.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/k2zkvn.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/e8vcxy.jpgUnless we think Thor was using an actual powerful attack there, and Ms Marvel is more powerful than Thor... Not the best evidence on your end.
Strange wasn't that far away. Only a few feet.
The lightining had to be meant to affect only Strange but at the same time free the team because like you said, people like Daredevil and Black Widow were unharmed.
Of course, you would say it was weak huh? 😂Nonetheless , the lightining and a full blast from Ms.Marvel was still shielded. Overall a good showing from Strange.
He also froze Thing in place where he couldn't do anything for a few pages. And don't forget that this was a non SS non prep Strange that took on this team for about 8 pages or so.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
He was glowing almost the entire fight, and had sparkles around him in the shape of a shield right before the hellfire.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/GR03_11.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/GR03_20.jpgHe was definitely dazed and the "hold up" definitely stopped him from getting attacked.
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/GR03_06.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/GR03_07.jpgI have my doubts he was completely unshielded. Although irrelevant as well considering Thor>>>>Ghost Rider.
But at the end of the day, them both being in a position to being beaten is ultimately irrelevant considering Ghost Rider did win.
And that was the first time Ghost Rider used hellfire in that incarnation too. Should have seen him at the end of that run, he was way more powerful.
There is no evidence of a shield being projected in those first few scans. Only an aura which Strange has had plenty of times. Looked to me like the hellfire hit him straight up. And once again Strange being down doesn't mean he's out of it. Like how he got up and handled Rulk in New Avengers after the lightining blast from Thor.
GR's immortality and Doc's guilt is what guaranteed the victory but it's really moot because Thor has no Pennance Stare. I sure hope GR got more powerful. The way ol frail body Steven <-----as you would describe him, tanked it, he had nowhere to go but up.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Because Thor doesn't do enchantments/spells like Dormammu.His attacks are laced with magic, that's not something you can account for unless he can completely stop Thor's attacks. That's the job for a shield.
And his shield IMO is questionable, but I digress.Strange can account for his attacks via a shield. Thor can account for his attacks via absorption. If they stand in front of each other and blast away. Although that would be an absolutely dreadful idea for Strange.
But I don't have much problems with people saying split since I realize it's tough to sway from your 'guy'. What I take issues with is people under the assumption that Strange is clearly a whole tier higher than Thor like this lord fellow here.
The purpose of his shields are to protect against whatever foe he's facing. Doesn't matter if it's enchanted lighting or Flames of the Faltine, power cosmic, it makes no difference.
You don't have to inform me that you think his shields are questionable, I get reminded by you on the regular. 😉
Not sure who'll win in a blastoff but the channelling the Vishanti which he's done for his most powerfull blasts should keep him in the game. I suppose the GB can match it but a contest like that would leave both in a weakened state.
If someone wants place him in a slightly higher tier let them subjectively be satisfied. Won't get a argument from me tho. 😎
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Playing dumb doesn't work.You brought up Strange's shield blocking the heat of the sun, and I said Thor's lightning has proven more potent than the heat of the sun to the point of effecting someone way more durable than Dormammu.
IE Thor was more powerful in that example.He uttered the spell to attract it on a calm day.
Because he can do both, again. Hell, he can fire off lightning while he's summoning storms.
Atum labeled it as "bothersome". The threat significance of it wasn't that great. Not to mention the energies were "of the same essence as the sun". No biggie, whether it was lightining or solar based it can be blocked.
So what it was a calm day? The bolt was mystical. It was a 2 part spell.
Still hanging your hat on that storm huh? I understand though...against Strange you'll need to take advantage of any exploitation available.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Considering Ghost Rider is way less durable than Thor, unless we're of the opinion that Jack'O Lantern's gun can blow off Thor's head:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Ghost%20Rider/img017-1.jpgI don't think much of it. And considering Thor controls the shit out of lightning, I really don't think much of it.
The spell "bewildered" Ghost Rider because it initially did nothing but conjure up/attract lightning.
Except that GR was lying flat on his back dealing with Strange and had to use his chains on a then feeling guilty Steve.
No, you can't put much thought into it considering Thor won't be controlling what's he's not even expecting. That small orb what GR thought was insignificant distracted him and allowed the strike to hit him. Thor can endure some punishment but it will connect and have an affect.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusI think it's rather obvious from Thor's "oh sh1t" face and the one-by-one systematic dismantling of every Avenger that Dr. Strange took on before finally being overwhelmed. Thor was obviously the most powerful chess piece on the board, so there would be no reason for Brother Voodoo to switch into Captain Marvel's body for the coup de grace, if Thor was only momentarily staggered.
Defeated? More like knocked back/blasted away or whatever for a page.Might as well argue Thor defeated Strange here:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16334555/06.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16334556/08.jpg.html
If the art isn't clear to you, and I can't blame you for that, the pattern and progression of the fight ought to be.
Originally posted by ODG
I think it's rather obvious from Thor's "oh sh1t" face and the one-by-one systematic dismantling of every Avenger that Dr. Strange took on before finally being overwhelmed. Thor was obviously the most powerful chess piece on the board, so there would be no reason for Brother Voodoo to switch into Captain Marvel's body for the coup de grace, if Thor was only momentarily staggered.If the art isn't clear to you, and I can't blame you for that, the pattern and progression of the fight ought to be.
Reasonable but not conclusive evidence either as Voodoo was jumping from host to host often whether they were out or not. Of course he was only momentarily staggered or whatever, what else do you think happened? Thor was standing over Strange on the next page without a scratch. That entire sequence with Captain Marvel couldn't have lasted for more then a brief moment.
So as far as you're concerned, Thor defeated Doctor Strange then?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusVoodoo was only jumping around when he was getting the Avengers to hurt each other to goad Strange into fighting him. He had accepted Dr. Strange's duel to the death and was only focusing on him at the time. He actually won until Vision and Cage interfered and bought him the time to find that exorcism spell. I think what happened was Thor and Thing were laid low by Dr. Strange. And by the time Captain Marvel finally laid Dr. Strange out, Thor and Thing were up and at em again.
Not evidence of anything, Voodoo was jumping from host to host often whether they were out or not. Of course he was only momentarily staggered or whatever, what else do you think happened? Thor was standing over Strange on the next page without a scratch. That entire sequence of Captain Marvel couldn't have lasted for more then a brief moment.That was one hell of a temporary defeat. And I believe it's the same silly reasoning that follows every time a character is knocked off panel, they are automatically knocked out.
If that's all I relied on, you'd have a point. But between the look on Thor's face and the systematic dismantling of each Avenger, Strange took out Thor and forced Brother Voodoo to switch out. If I had to look at that obvious sequence of events and argue that out of all the people Strange took out before he lost to Captain Marvel -- Rulk, Spider-Man, Thing, Cap, Thor -- that Thor was the only one who didn't get laid low, I'd call that an awfully convenient conclusion.
Originally posted by ODG
Voodoo was only jumping around when he was getting the Avengers to hurt each other to goad Strange into fighting him. He had accepted Dr. Strange's duel to the death and was only focusing on him at the time. He actually won until Vision and Cage interfered and bought him the time to find that exorcism spell. I think what happened was Thor and Thing were laid low by Dr. Strange. And by the time Captain Marvel finally laid Dr. Strange out, Thor and Thing were up and at em again.If that's all I relied on, you'd have a point. But between the look on Thor's face and the systematic dismantling of each Avenger, Strange took out Thor and forced Brother Voodoo to switch out. If I had to look at that obvious sequence of events and argue that out of all the people Strange took out before he lost to Captain Marvel -- Rulk, Spider-Man, Thing, Cap, Thor -- that Thor was the only one who didn't get laid low, I'd call that an awfully convenient conclusion.
Or when he was talking through them and so on. Hell, on the next page where Thor is standing over Strange, Voodoo jumps from Thor to Vision to Red Hulk in between sentences. Body swapping was something he did constantly. So iyo, how long did the sequence with Captain Marvel last? I'm trying to find an estimate as to how long you think Thor was defeated. The entire sequence without dialogue would indicate it's nonstop action, going on for only a few seconds tops but that's my take.
And you'd have a point if we saw Thor struggling like Daredevil etc. instead of being fine on the next page. Like I said, if you want to argue Thor was defeated, go ahead. I think it's stupid, I laughed at Abhil arguing Thing knocked out Thor or that Vision took out Thor, and this isn't any better. Personally, it's the equivalent of momentarily blasting him off his feet but that's my interpretation. So Thor defeated Strange as well then I take it?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusIt lasted long enough for Thor to regain his bearings.
Or when he was talking through them and so on. Hell, on the next page where Thor is standing over Strange, Voodoo jumps from Thor to Vision to Red Hulk in between sentences. Body swapping was something he did constantly. So iyo, how long did the sequence with Captain Marvel last? I'm trying to find an estimate as to how long you think Thor was defeated. The entire sequence without dialogue would indicate it's nonstop action, going on for only a few seconds tops but that's my take.And you'd have a point if we saw Thor struggling like Daredevil etc. instead of being fine on the next page. Like I said, if you want to argue Thor was defeated, go ahead. I think it's stupid, I laughed at Abhil arguing Thing knocked out Thor or that Vision took out Thor, and this isn't any better. Personally, it's the equivalent of momentarily blasting him off his feet but that's my interpretation. So Thor defeated Strange as well then I take it?
Daredevil wasn't even part of the fight. Rulk and Thing weren't "struggling" either afterwards. But they were defeated as well, as was Cap and Spider-Man. Somehow, just not Thor. Even though it was Captain Marvel that finally took him down. Convenient.
Originally posted by ODG
But I can admit that a mind-controlled Thor can be defeated by a weaker Dr. Strange who was finally bringing his A-game. He was dismantling the Avengers one-by-one. That stopped by the time Captain Marvel finally managed a good shot in. In no small part, I'm sure, due to the exhaustion and efforts required to take on Thor.It that offends you, it shouldn't.
Originally posted by ODG
It lasted long enough for Thor to regain his bearings.Daredevil wasn't even part of the fight. Rulk and Thing weren't "struggling" either afterwards. But they were defeated as well, as was Cap and Spider-Man. Somehow, just not Thor. Even though it was Captain Marvel that finally took him down. Convenient.
And how long was that? You said Thor was defeated. This implies a definitive conclusion to a fight. Yet we see Thor completely fine after a page of brief action that couldn't have lasted for more then a brief moment. That is imho utterly ridiculous. Character's have been knocked off panel for far longer and were just fine in the past. Hell, in this issue Thor was gone for longer when Vision tossed him by his cape. And I hope you aren't using it as reasoning that Strange beats Thor in this thread as that would be silly.
And I meant Captain America. Sorry.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusWe get it. Dr. Strange defeated Rulk, Spider-Man, Thing, Cap,
And how long was that? You said Thor was defeated. This implies a definitive conclusion to a fight. Yet we see Thor completely fine after a page of brief action that couldn't have lasted for more then a brief moment. Ultimately, I think using it as reasoning that Strange beats Thor in this thread is asinine and you might as well argue Thor defeats Strange because of that lightning bolt.And I meant Captain America.
Originally posted by Sundipped
You're not giving great odds ok cool, that's really all I wanted to hear.
Nice twist you put on those occurences. Magic instances>>>>>>>>...infinite >'s >storm instances.
It's just something that can and probably will happen. As we've seen, it bugs Strange. Just a funny little tidbit is all
I'd wager Thor's summoned storms on par with at the very least half of Strange's appearances in comics.
Either way, the point is the same. Both use them a lot. Acting like Thor summoning a storm is out of character doesn't make any sense.
Originally posted by SundippedYes, I firmly believe that God couldn't make Strange more powerful than Thor. He couldn't though, seriously.
Ok that was a joke of yours. Just came off as too arrogant for me initially.
Classic Thor won't beat Marvel Premier black magic Strange. You know the one who couldn't even come to the 616 plane without indirectly destroying it after fighting Shuma. That's the best one to pick and has the greatest chances of emerging victorious.
Are you talking about Strange Tales v2 15 (14 was where the fight happened)?
The one where Strange straight up had infinite power going into the fight (though admittedly he took it from his Shuma's dudes which was a tremendous feat)?
And he was going to destroy galaxies, not the plane, because he absorbed a shit ton of energy from Shuma as well and Strange couldn't control it. And he went crazy from it to a point where he didn't even know he was Strange and it took multiple issues for him to regain his Dr Strange persona?
That is about as much normal Strange's level as Rune King Thor is normal Thor.
Marvel Premiere was where Shuma was siphoning off of Ancient One to a point of death inside his mind, and Strange destroyed a defenseless weakened Ancient One's ego thus 'killing' both.
Is this the type of feats I should be using for Thor? The ones where he is so crazily amped it's not even funny?
Originally posted by SundippedAll of the context was in the scans I posted, and there was only a couple where the excuses made any conceivable sense as to why his shield could be construed as weaker.
Didn't ring true or you just chose to not accept them. Those "excuses" were stated on panel and many of them were even in the actual scans you posted. Go head lowball away all you want and go digging. It won't take away from the good showings.
I don't need to lowball, or average out his shield (since it's so numerous), since I find it unlikely that people believe Strange's shield is unbreakable anymore, let alone for someone on the level of Thor.
Question though. If cases of his shield breaking matched up with instances of his shield holding, how would you view that?
Originally posted by SundippedIt was a lightning bolt that hit Thor directly, when Strange was 'behind' the Crimson Bands about 12 feet away.
Strange wasn't that far away. Only a few feet.The lightining had to be meant to affect only Strange but at the same time free the team because like you said, people like Daredevil and Black Widow were unharmed.
Of course, you would say it was weak huh? 😂Nonetheless , the lightining and a full blast from Ms.Marvel was still shielded. Overall a good showing from Strange.
He also froze Thing in place where he couldn't do anything for a few pages. And don't forget that this was a non SS non prep Strange that took on this team for about 8 pages or so.
Or the lightning was just meant to free Thor since it came quite a ways from Strange...
Are you really arguing that it was meant to bypass everyone else when Drumm straight up claimed he didn't care if any of them died? Let alone the notion of that in the first place.
Of course it was weak. Ms Marvel hit him while he was actively shielding from her attacks, ie broke through. And Thor's previous attack shattered the bands of Cytorrak from a focused magician with a lightning attack.
Yes, good feat for Strange. Irrelevant to Thor.
Originally posted by Sundipped
There is no evidence of a shield being projected in those first few scans. Only an aura which Strange has had plenty of times. Looked to me like the hellfire hit him straight up. And once again Strange being down doesn't mean he's out of it. Like how he got up and handled Rulk in New Avengers after the lightining blast from Thor.GR's immortality and Doc's guilt is what guaranteed the victory but it's really moot because Thor has no Pennance Stare. I sure hope GR got more powerful. The way ol frail body Steven <-----as you would describe him, tanked it, he had nowhere to go but up.
He wasn't lying flat on his back in the Thor scenario though asking for a "time out".
But Thor has more powerful attacks so there's that.
The funny thing about the instances you're bringing up though aren't exactly helping the notion of him having an auto shield all the time though. Or even using a shield half the time... but I digress.
It also doesn't help when you bring up feats from fights where he loses, but again, digress.
Originally posted by SundippedI realize. I'm not saying different attacks will go through his shield based on the nature though.
The purpose of his shields are to protect against whatever foe he's facing. Doesn't matter if it's enchanted lighting or Flames of the Faltine, power cosmic, it makes no difference.You don't have to inform me that you think his shields are questionable, I get reminded by you on the regular. 😉
Not sure who'll win in a blastoff but the channelling the Vishanti which he's done for his most powerfull blasts should keep him in the game. I suppose the GB can match it but a contest like that would leave both in a weakened state.
If someone wants place him in a slightly higher tier let them subjectively be satisfied. Won't get a argument from me tho. 😎
Just want to keep you in the know.
I should hope the Godblast can't only match him.
I wouldn't expect you to correct them... not sure if that's good or bad though.
Anyway, I can't sway you from the split I admit. But I can sure as hell definitively prove Thor is not a tier below Strange is basically what my real gripe is.
Originally posted by SundippedAnd he's far above the likes of Mephisto so there's that. Plus he sleeps inside the sun. And he was still taken back by Thor's lightning.
Atum labeled it as "bothersome". The threat significance of it wasn't that great. Not to mention the energies were "of the same essence as the sun". No biggie, whether it was lightining or solar based it can be blocked.So what it was a calm day? The bolt was mystical. It was a 2 part spell.
Still hanging your hat on that storm huh? I understand though...against Strange you'll need to take advantage of any exploitation available.
Or it just attracted it from the sky with no mystical properties. Although I can't fathom why it being magical has to do with anything.
Any exploitation available? lol. Thor could literally ram forward and smash the shit out of Strange. I'm just giving Strange the benefit of the doubt.
Originally posted by SundippedOK cool. Thor is far more durable than Ghost Rider, who beat Strange.
Except that GR was lying flat on his back dealing with Strange and had to use his chains on a then feeling guilty Steve.No, you can't put much thought into it considering Thor won't be controlling what's he's not even expecting. That small orb what GR thought was insignificant distracted him and allowed the strike to hit him. Thor can endure some punishment but it will connect and have an affect.
So lightning changes the odds in Strange's favor?
You realize... you really realize that you just literally brought up a scene where Thor struck himself with a lightning bolt with enough force to break the Crimson Bands and was none the worse for wear from it... don't you?
But a bolt used against a standing still Ghost Rider that damaged him will have some sort of significant effect on Thor?
Are you following this train of thought logically?
Not to mention Strange left himself wide open for an attack while doing this. So you better hope Thor stops dead in his tracks.
