Originally posted by Nephthys
The Hero of Tython is way above Obi-Wan and Agen Kolar though. 😬
I am aware of that. My point is that SW legend's logic of "he's one of the best evar!" just doesn't hold up against two contestants that are also among the best evaaar.
Using ABC logic, Yoda > HoT because of a random RotS quote, and so Sidious > HoT as well. And Scourge has never demonstrated saber skillz on the level of Kenobi.
Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, both of these points would also apply to Obi Wan, and Agen Kolar.He isn't beating Sidious.
Originally posted by Master Han
Scourge isn't beating soresu-god Kenobi.They die.
Scourge (peak incarnation) managed to kill lot of powerful Jedi. If Obi-Wan is an EXPERT Form III swordsman, Scourge is an EXPERT swordsman (on the whole) and the latter may also have managed to significantly enhance his Force abilities (thanks to assistance of Sith Emperor himself).
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They do not match HoT in the arena of feats and accomplishments.
Like many video-game characters, the HoT's feats are quite subjective. The only one of importance here is his defeat of Vitiate (IIRC, in a dark side nexus).
Does this mean he can defeat Palpatine?
...we have no idea. So perhaps I prematurely dismissed his possible victory here.
You expect me to accept your subjective opinion without scrutinizing it?Scourge (peak incarnation) managed to kill lot of powerful Jedi. If Obi-Wan is an EXPERT Form III swordsman, Scourge is an EXPERT swordsman (on the whole) and the latter may also have managed to significantly enhance his Force abilities (thanks to assistance of Sith Emperor himself). [/B]
"a lot of powerful Jedi" is not a very quantifiable feat. Kenobi handed Grievous his ass, who also killed "a lot of powerful Jedi" in their combative prime.
"EXPERT swordsman" doesn't mean much to another expert swordsman. Cin Drallig was also an "expert swordsman", yet he died quickly to Vader.
But please, go ahead and list his feats for us.
Originally posted by Master Han
Like many video-game characters, the HoT's feats are quite subjective. The only one of importance here is his defeat of Vitiate (IIRC, in a dark side nexus).
Have you read my Hero of Tython feats list?
Originally posted by Master Han
"a lot of powerful Jedi" is not a very quantifiable feat.
Fair enough. The actual number is over one hundred. And he's killed over ten times that amount of Sith.
Is that quantifiable?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Have you read my Hero of Tython feats list?
All of your feats are circular.
You defeat characters whose primary feats involve either losing to the Hero, or defeating other equally circularly defined combatants.
The only ones of external importance are his/her defeat of a monster that doesn't seem that much larger than a rancor, rancors that no-name lost tribe sith oneshot like jokes in Backlash, and his dodging of an orbital tracking laser, which, while impressive, is still difficult to quantify without knowing the weapon's firing speed, and not as unique given precognition.
Of course, this issue applies to all combatants fighting in different eras. Usually we try to gauge just how powerful they are relative to their era, and how powerful the era is relative to SW as a whole, right?
TOR seems to be among the most Force-potent eras in the mythos, but I'd still put it below the NJO and PT epochs.
And yet Sidious wtfomgroflamopwns three of the greatest in that era, and of any era, whom all actually have pretty beastly feats, in a matter of seconds.
Of course, you can say the same about the sith emperor, which is why I concede that it could go either way.
Fair enough. The actual number is over one hundred. And he's killed over ten times that amount of Sith.Is that quantifiable?
🙄 Come on, Nephthys. It would be pretty darn impressive if he killed all of those jedi and sith at the same time, but given that he does so over the course of 3 centuries, and without knowing just how tough those jedi/sith actually are...
We know that he's not very strong in Revan, but presumably he's improved in the three centuries and Emperor-rage-boost. We just can't conclude that he could defeat Kenobi, who has vastly superior fleets and accolades.
You know, his whole "the master of soresu" quote, and his "vessel of the Force" passage.
Originally posted by Master Han
🙄 Come on, Nephthys. It would be pretty darn impressive if he killed all of those jedi and sith at the same time, but given that he does so over the course of 3 centuries, and without knowing just how tough those jedi/sith actually are...
While I agree with you in the sense that we can't know how tough they were, there is something else: Emperor Vitiate was highly seclusive. Scourge was his only personal assassin in a Sith Order of thousands, and if he saw someone as a threat to his domain, he or she would certainly have to be significantly powerful in order to get the Emperor's direct attention. So Scourge personally dealt with the Emperor's most powerful enemies during 300 years. That ought to count for something; his job required him to be a very, very skilled individual.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
While I agree with you in the sense that we can't know how tough they were, there is something else: Emperor Vitiate was highly seclusive. Scourge was his only personal assassin in a Sith Order of thousands, and if he saw someone as a threat to his domain, he or she would certainly have to be significantly powerful in order to get the Emperor's direct attention. So Scourge personally dealt with the Emperor's most powerful enemies during 300 years. That ought to count for something; his job required him to be a very, very skilled individual.
It certainly lends credence to his combat experience, although the Emperor's hit list may consist of as many political threats as combative ones - is it not true that many members of the dark council are actually weaklings, who received positions based more on political guile than any strength in the Force?
Originally posted by Master Han
It certainly lends credence to his combat experience, although the Emperor's hit list may consist of as many political threats as combative ones - is it not true that many members of the dark council are actually weaklings, who received positions based more on political guile than any strength in the Force?
To a point. It had to be a combination of both: power and political guile. What happened in time is that some members who used to be powerful became weak as they got older and less influential and therefore became easy targets. But you couldn't be weak to enter the Dark Council.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
To a point. It had to be a combination of both: power and political guile. What happened in time is that some members who used to be powerful became weak as they got older and less influential and therefore became easy targets. But you couldn't be weak to enter the Dark Council.
I'd also point out that there's no reason to believe that the average Dark Council member is above the level of the average Jedi Council member, and Kenobi could tool 99% of them throughout history.
Originally posted by Master Han
All of your feats are circular.You defeat characters whose primary feats involve either losing to the Hero, or defeating other equally circularly defined combatants.
I'm not going to write up a big argument for each feat. The list is just a basic idea of her accomplishments and why they're reasonably impressive. Orgus Din for instance was the orders most battle-hardened member, a Jedi Council member who's 'fought more battles with the Sith than any other living member of the order' and collapses a cave and makes the whole thing shake in front of you. And he's beaten by Bengal Marr, a dark jedi, right at the start of the game. The same Bengal Marr who the HoT beats with a training saber, right after arriving on Tython to begin her training. So you its not like these feats are all circular.
Also some of this was written by Legend. You can tell because of the way he repeats EXPERT alot.
Originally posted by Master Han
The only ones of external importance are his/her defeat of a monster that doesn't seem that much larger than a rancor, rancors that no-name lost tribe sith oneshot like jokes in Backlash, and his dodging of an orbital tracking laser, which, while impressive, is still difficult to quantify without knowing the weapon's firing speed, and not as unique given precognition.
What about the creature who hunts Krayt Dragons? With multiple Krayt Dragon skeletons surrounding its lair? Or an ancient Tarentatek? Or Lord Scourge? Or Darth Angral, the same guy Malgus thought could beat him in Deception? Or Tol Braga? Its a good list, man. 🙁
Also, that monster was imbued with so much darkside that it radiates it from its body, and was telepathic to the level of guiding an entire race. And you dodge that laser while also fighting an invisible Sith Lord.
Plus theres a few feats on it and various of the opponents are legitimately impressive victories.
Originally posted by Master Han
Of course, this issue applies to all combatants fighting in different eras. Usually we try to gauge just how powerful they are relative to their era, and how powerful the era is relative to SW as a whole, right?TOR seems to be among the most Force-potent eras in the mythos, but I'd still put it below the NJO and PT epochs.
No, not really. At least I don't. I weigh their respective feats and accolade without regard for era or anything else.
I'd put it above the PT personally. Vitiate and the HoT are practically equivalent to Yoda and Sidious, the Barsen'thor and Malgus are equal to Mace Windu and Dooku but their just seems to be a higher level of power to the PT from everyone else, and a huge number of beasts above the rest of the PT cast.
Originally posted by Master Han
And yet Sidious wtfomgroflamopwns three of the [b]greatest in that era, and of any era, whom all actually have pretty beastly feats, in a matter of seconds.Of course, you can say the same about the sith emperor, which is why I concede that it could go either way.[/b]
Oh, I'm not actually arguing that the HoT could beat Sidious. As I've said, the lack of definition of her powers really holds her back. The best we can do is point to her victories and small amount of feats. The best we can do is say she's more powerful than Scourge and about as powerful as Vitiate and that she's likely pretty skilled given her wins and that she has a reputation for having 'legendary' martial prowess. The best we can do is loosely define her powers.
Originally posted by Master Han
🙄 Come on, Nephthys. It would be pretty darn impressive if he killed all of those jedi and sith at the same time, but given that he does so over the course of 3 centuries, and without knowing just how tough those jedi/sith actually are...We know that he's not very strong in Revan, but presumably he's improved in the three centuries and Emperor-rage-boost. We just can't conclude that he could defeat Kenobi, who has [b]vastly
superior fleets and accolades.You know, his whole "the master of soresu" quote, and his "vessel of the Force" passage. [/B]
Its an amazing record and we know that they're powerful because its confirmed that Vitiate only sends him against 'Jedi who become too powerful and Sith who become too ambitious.' Plus as I've argued in the other thread, its surely indicative of extraordinary skill and ability.
We don't know that. 😬 Not strong in comparison to Nyriss, Revan and Vitiate maybe, but he's still an powerful Sith Lord about on par with the Jedi Exile (who defeated an entire Sith Temple by herself on a potent darkside nexus).
I put Scourges kill count above Kenobi being fellated by Windu and a metaphorical statement.
Originally posted by Master Han
I'd also point out that there's no reason to believe that the average Dark Council member is above the level of the average Jedi Council member, and Kenobi could tool 99% of them throughout history.
That's true, but we're getting a little off the point here.
Even though there were obviously a lot of political opponents who needed to be put aside, during 300 years there were obviously also a significant amount combative threats. Of course it's impossible to determine the exact number, but it's a point of reference to his skill.
Originally posted by Master Han
It certainly lends credence to his combat experience, although the Emperor's hit list may consist of as many political threats as combative ones - is it not true that many members of the dark council are actually weaklings, who received positions based more on political guile than any strength in the Force?
No.
'Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy'
'Anyone who becomes a Darth and lasts longer than a month has clearly earned her position through considerable power and sheer force of will.'
Originally posted by Master Han
I'd also point out that there's no reason to believe that the average Dark Council member is above the level of the average Jedi Council member, and Kenobi could tool 99% of them throughout history.
Bullshit. What about Nyriss? Or Darth Nox? Or Darth "routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shield" Marr? Darth Jadus? Darth Thanaton? Even Baras is probably a good fight for Kenobi.