Hero of Tython and Lord Scourge vs. ROTS Sidious and ROTS Kenobi

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, thats true. However, that doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority of DCM's aren't extremely powerful badasses who are the most powerful Sith in the Empire. Just because other powerful Sith who rival them are not on the council, doesn't make the council weak.

Its canon that 'Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy'. Just end of story.

Yes, but when you look at his feats in context...they can't stack up to Obi Wan's.

He disarms half of Grievous's lightsabers in the course of 25 seconds. This same Grievous has taken on and defeated Jedi council members and numerous other dangerous foes. He's also defeated Ventress, who, again, has defeated numerous top-dog PT masters.

His accolades, attributed by masters such as Windu and Dooku, as well as OOU narrators, rank him as perhaps the greatest soresu practitioner in recorded history, with defenses so great, even Dooku could not penetrate them without the aid of telekinesis.

By RotS, he has surpassed legends such as Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, his master Qui Gon, and various Jedi all described as some of the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced. As of RotS, only five living combatants could be said to be ahead of him:

Yoda - "most powerful foe the darkness has ever known"
Sidious - the most powerful sith lord to ever live
Mace Windu - invented vaapad, defeated Sidious, has ridiculous "move too fast for you to see" feats, etc.
Dooku - one of the most powerful Jedi in the order's 25,000 year long history, "and an even greater sith lord"
Anakin - the chosen one...Stover particularly gives him monstrous accolades in the RotS novelization.

He tools beings that have tooled prodigies.

You see, this is a little more impressive and definite than Lord Scourge's "kill lots of powerful Jedi and Sith". Particularly, Scourge relies on drawing on his enemies' fear and hatred...that won't really work against Kenobi.

Sidious would probably end up killing Scourge very, and obi-wan, being the greatest master of soresu, would probably hold off the hero long enough for Sidious to finish him.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sidious would probably end up killing Scourge very, and obi-wan, being the greatest master of soresu, would probably hold off the hero long enough for Sidious to finish him.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, but when you look at his feats in context...they can't stack up to Obi Wan's.

He disarms half of Grievous's lightsabers in the course of 25 seconds. This same Grievous has taken on and defeated Jedi council members and numerous other dangerous foes. He's also defeated Ventress, who, again, has defeated numerous top-dog PT masters.

His accolades, attributed by masters such as Windu and Dooku, as well as OOU narrators, rank him as perhaps the greatest soresu practitioner in recorded history, with defenses so great, even Dooku could not penetrate them without the aid of telekinesis.

By RotS, he has surpassed legends such as Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, his master Qui Gon, and various Jedi all described as some of [b]the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced. As of RotS, only five living combatants could be said to be ahead of him:

Yoda - "most powerful foe the darkness has ever known"
Sidious - the most powerful sith lord to ever live
Mace Windu - invented vaapad, defeated Sidious, has ridiculous "move too fast for you to see" feats, etc.
Dooku - one of the most powerful Jedi in the order's 25,000 year long history, "and an even greater sith lord"
Anakin - the chosen one...Stover particularly gives him monstrous accolades in the RotS novelization.

He tools beings that have tooled prodigies.

You see, this is a little more impressive and definite than Lord Scourge's "kill lots of powerful Jedi and Sith". Particularly, Scourge relies on drawing on his enemies' fear and hatred...that won't really work against Kenobi. [/B]

I agree with you, for once.

Scourge was also defeated by the hero of tython when he hadnt even reached his prime, (food for thought, the hero, when not in his prime, defeated scourge, then proceeded to be completely destroyed by the voice of the emperor, while the hero had a strike team at his back. when he reached his prime, he soloed the emperor on a dark side nexus.)

^The Emperor was massively weakened when the Hero fought him on Dromund Kaas, he was Vitiate's inferior throughout the game.

Also, Team 2 wins handily. While Scourge is a pretty good match for Kenobi, there's no chance the HoT is beating Sidious, lets be honest here.

Kenobi would most likely beat scourge, considering that scourge's greatest strength is gorging himself on his foe's emotions, this weakness is not put into play against kenobi

Scourge has killed hundreds of Jedi, he's obviously quite capable of drawing on the emotions of those who don't use hate and anger. Perhaps determination could be drawn from?

probably true, but i still believe that obi would win, considering (as aforementioned) that scourge lost to a hero of tython who wasnt in his/her prime, whom i think kenobi is stronger than. anyways, i gotta log, c ya'll tomorrow 🙂

Sidious blitzes Scourage, Kenobi should at least be able to last 12seconds Vs the Hero long enough for team to PWN him.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Scourge has killed hundreds of Jedi, he's obviously quite capable of drawing on the emotions of those who don't use hate and anger. Perhaps determination could be drawn from?

WADR, that's quite faulty logic; that Scourge can defeat Jedi does not mean that he did so by drawing upon their emotions. Maybe he's just better than a lot of them from his baseline capabilities.

That being said, being able to kill lots of Jedi and Sith really doesn't mean being able to kill the master of soresu, who's already above everyone in the golden age of lightsaber dueling aside from the most powerful Jedi in history, the most powerful sith in history, the chosen one, and a prodigal lightsaber legend.

1. This is funny, because it's directly shown that Scourge has a very hard time with droids because there are no emotions to be drawn from them, yet no such struggle with Jedi have been noted.

2. Point me to where I said Scourge could actually defeat Kenobi? I'm merely mentioning that his powers wouldn't be completely ineffective.

3. That's your opinion, and not a fact.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. This is funny, because it's directly shown that Scourge has a very hard time with droids because there are no emotions to be drawn from them, yet no such struggle with Jedi have been noted.

I was referring to your "he's beat Jedi, so his ability must work on them" line of logic. And the lack of mention of a struggle doesn't mean that his ability to draw on emotions hasn't diminished - narrators forget to describe a lot of things.

2. Point me to where I said Scourge could actually defeat Kenobi? I'm merely mentioning that his powers wouldn't be completely ineffective.

"that being said" addressing the thread in general.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, but when you look at his feats in context...they can't stack up to Obi Wan's.

He disarms half of Grievous's lightsabers in the course of 25 seconds. This same Grievous has taken on and defeated Jedi council members and numerous other dangerous foes. He's also defeated Ventress, who, again, has defeated numerous top-dog PT masters.

His accolades, attributed by masters such as Windu and Dooku, as well as OOU narrators, rank him as perhaps the greatest soresu practitioner in recorded history, with defenses so great, even Dooku could not penetrate them without the aid of telekinesis.

By RotS, he has surpassed legends such as Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, his master Qui Gon, and various Jedi all described as some of [b]the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced. As of RotS, only five living combatants could be said to be ahead of him:

Yoda - "most powerful foe the darkness has ever known"
Sidious - the most powerful sith lord to ever live
Mace Windu - invented vaapad, defeated Sidious, has ridiculous "move too fast for you to see" feats, etc.
Dooku - one of the most powerful Jedi in the order's 25,000 year long history, "and an even greater sith lord"
Anakin - the chosen one...Stover particularly gives him monstrous accolades in the RotS novelization.

He tools beings that have tooled prodigies.

You see, this is a little more impressive and definite than Lord Scourge's "kill lots of powerful Jedi and Sith". Particularly, Scourge relies on drawing on his enemies' fear and hatred...that won't really work against Kenobi. [/B]

You're welcome to your opinion. Personally though I see Scourges feats and accolades as just as impressive as Kenobi's. Yes, Kenobi is an exemplary swordsman. I just think that Scourge, being a Juyo master even as of Revan and thus a high-end master of multiple forms who even his lightsaber instructors were hesitant to face when he was an apprentice, would be just as skilled if not more given his extra 300 years worth of training and fighting. This is indicated by his ability to discern any weakness in person from a glance, based on his huge experience. He was already a powerful Sith Lord portrayed as equal to the Jedi Exile (who I rank as about Kenobi level) in Revan and according to Revan wasn't even close to reaching his full potential yet. So, again, I think its logical to think that he would have grown considerably since then.

Therefore, I don't think it ridiculous to think he could beat Kenobi, or that he's equal to him at all. Also..... his killcount is really big. So big man.

And Scourge doesn't rely on his power to draw emotions. He learned not to after the incident with the droids you mentioned above, as it was a weakness. He can fight fine without drawing on his opponent. Although he could still draw on Sidious' rage....

Scourge also has a personal shield generator that would help him.

Eh I doubt Kenobi would pwn Scourage. Win, but not PWN him. Proabably wins 6/10.

Dosint matter since Sidious blitzes Scourage rightaway and Kenobi holds off the hero for 12seconds long enough for team to wtfpwn.

The HoT really should be able to whoop Kenobi's ass almost as easily as Sidious would whoop Scourges.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're welcome to your opinion. Personally though I see Scourges feats and accolades as just as impressive as Kenobi's.

When has anyone described Scourge as one of the greatest of all time, or even among the greatest of his time?

I just think that Scourge, being a Juyo master

There are enough juyo masters in the PT, yet Obi Wan surpasses all but two of them, three if Yoda has also mastered the form.

even as of Revan and thus a high-end master of multiple forms who even his lightsaber instructors were hesitant to face when he was an apprentice,

This makes him exceptional; this does not put him on the level of Kenobi. As a padawan, Kenobi survives and kills (with some luck) "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history", who had earlier tooled the temple battlemaster, whose proficiency with a blade was "second to none" in the dueling golden age.

would be just as skilled if not more given his extra 300 years worth of training and fighting.

This is certainly a point in his favor, but it's not necessarily enough to overcome Kenobi's superior demonstrated talents, given that Vodo lived for several hundred years and still got tooled by Exar Kun.

This is indicated by his ability to discern any weakness in person from a glance, based on his huge experience. He was already a powerful Sith Lord portrayed as equal to the Jedi Exile (who I rank as about Kenobi level) in Revan and according to Revan wasn't even close to reaching his full potential yet. So, again, I think its logical to think that he would have grown considerably since then.

I don't see where you pull the idea of the Exile being on Kenobi's level. Scourge was impressed by her power; he was not like "OMG he's one of the greatest duelists in history!", as people have described Kenobi.

Remember that Scourge at this time is still relatively obscure, and is routinely outranked and doubtful of his ability to take on dark council members. Kenobi can handily defeat all but three of the members on the RotS council.

Therefore, I don't think it ridiculous to think he could beat Kenobi, or that he's equal to him at all. Also..... his killcount is really big. So big man.

His killcount is bigger than Luke's as well, so does that mean he'd last thirty seconds against him? 😉

Experience is important, but not as much if most of it involves taking on opponents way below Kenobi's caliber.

And Scourge doesn't rely on his power to draw emotions. He learned not to after the incident with the droids you mentioned above, as it was a weakness. He can fight fine without drawing on his opponent. Although he could still draw on Sidious' rage....

Fair point, I'm just saying he wouldn't be able to use that ability.

Scourge also has a personal shield generator that would help him.

I didn't know about that.

Originally posted by Master Han
When has anyone described Scourge as one of the greatest of all time, or even among the greatest of his time?

Has anyone ever described the Hero of Tython as such? No, but we know she is. You don't need to be explicitly stated as being among the greats to be among the greats. Scourge definitely is among the greatest given what we know about him. None have his kind of record.

Originally posted by Master Han
There are enough juyo masters in the PT, yet Obi Wan surpasses all but two of them, three if Yoda has also mastered the form.

I'm well aware. I was establishing that Scourge was already a fine swordsman as of Revan. Which you seem to have gotten given....

Originally posted by Master Han
This makes him exceptional; this does not put him on the level of Kenobi. As a padawan, Kenobi survives and kills (with some luck) "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history", who had earlier tooled the temple battlemaster, whose proficiency with a blade was "second to none" in the dueling golden age.

... this. I agree that it indicates he was exceptional. And I also agree that that alone doesn't make him on Kenobi's level. If however we agree that he was an exceptional swordman as of Revan....

(The Maul thing is irrelevent. It was luck and circumstance. You might as well credit Han with a legitimate Sidious kill if you go by those standards.)

Originally posted by Master Han
This is certainly a point in his favor, but it's not necessarily enough to overcome Kenobi's superior demonstrated talents, given that Vodo lived for several hundred years and still got tooled by Exar Kun.

... then logically he should be an even greater swordsman as of Swtor. Vodo is different, he was a Jedi Master who had other duties and likely focused on training others and meditation etc rather than developing his combat abilities. Scourge on the other hand learns faster given that he's a Sith, and his whole purpose was to be an assassin and kill people as well as prepare to backstab Vitiate for the fate of the galaxy. He would have developed his abilities a lot more than Vodo did. He's also obviously been highly active in terms of combat and has access to the finest resources Vitiates Empire has to offer.

Besides which is that Exar Kun is obviously really ****ing powerful and power can defeat skill and experience. Just like the Hero of Tython defeated Scourge.

To conclude: Scourge was already a highly skilled swordsman as of Revan, given what we can logically conclude he would have grown significantly as one in his 300 years in Vitiates service. He has 11x as much time to develop his abilities as Kenobi has and has ample opportunity and reason to develop them. Going by that, I believe it to be a safe assumption that he would have reached Kenobi's level or exceeded it.

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't see where you pull the idea of the Exile being on Kenobi's level. Scourge was impressed by her power; he was not like "OMG he's one of the greatest duelists in history!", as people have described Kenobi.

Remember that Scourge at this time is still relatively obscure, and is routinely outranked and doubtful of his ability to take on dark council members. Kenobi can handily defeat all but three of the members on the RotS council.

Hopefully what I have revealed in the other thread has changed your mind. To wit: She fought across the surface of Malachor which is filled with monsters, fought through a Sith temple, defeated Darth Sion multiple times then defeated Darth Traya twice in a row. That's a hugely impressive feat that puts her at Kenobi level in my eyes. Also in terms of swordmanship she's able to become proficient in a lightsaber form after observing someone using it for a few minutes. She is surely incredibly skilled.

No he can't.

Originally posted by Master Han
His killcount is bigger than Luke's as well, so does that mean he'd last thirty seconds against him? 😉

Experience is important, but not as much if most of it involves taking on opponents way below Kenobi's caliber.

That doesn't make it irrelevent. I've articulated why its an important factor here and in other threads. With that level of expertise, Scourge should be an exemplary swordsman who can take on Kenobi.

Does anyone on Team 1 have a defense against Deadly Sight?

Scourge has a portable shield generator.

And wouldn't a simple Force Shield protect against it? The HoT was resisting Vitiates force attacks, so she's clearly got highly advanced defenses.