Hero of Tython and Lord Scourge vs. ROTS Sidious and ROTS Kenobi

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, yes, in that large amounts. Scourge can keep killing random Jedi and Sith for ten thousand years, and he'd still die like a ***** to Luke Skywalker, for example.

True, but thats a false comparison. Luke is the very top of the ladder. Kenobi meanwhile is only slightly above Jedi Council level.

The fact is that Kenobi and the type of opponents are a at that level, which is only a bit above the level we can reasonably expect Scourge to have been operating against. That level of quality is not such that it outweighs the sheer amount of Scourges victories.

Quality can be above quantity, but only when it is significantly so. Scourge isn't fighting weaklings half as good as Kenobi is. He's fighting extremely powerful Jedi and Dark Council level Sith.

Originally posted by Master Han
Is he, now? He only becomes the Emperor's wrath after demonstrating apparent loyalty by stabbing the Exile in the back. Clearly, Vitiate [b]trusts him, but it's debatable how well he'd fare against the upper tiers of the dark council, or against Darth Malgus.[/b]

Yes. The whole point of the Emperor's Wrath is to be a force Vitiate can rely upon outside of and above even the Council, and if necessary to deal with them should they get too ambitious. Being above the Dark Council is in Scourge's job description.

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, portable shield generators explicitly went obsolete for a reason.

Because blasters overtook their effectiveness. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't allow Scourge protection from Kenobi's Force attacks or lightsaber on top of his heavy armor.

Originally posted by Master Han
He still has superior feats and accolades, so it's the only reasonable conclusion to draw.

Your argument would have a point if Revan Scourge were already approaching Obi Wan's level. But given that he gets embarrassed by a random bounty hunter and trashed by Nyriss, there's no reason to believe that this Scourge would last more than 30 seconds against Agen Kolar.

OK, go ahead and rebute this by calling him a "master swordsman" and "juyo practitioner". Because I could literally substitute a few words here and there to argue that Kit Fisto could stand with Palpatine. Because you still haven't realized that the accolades Revan Scourge has to his name apply to a wide range of combatants, the upper ends of which would dispatch the lower ends in literally less than 5 seconds.

Thats idiotic and you know it.

He was. Just because he struggled against a Bounty Hunter doesn't make him weak. The BH campaign in SWTOR makes it clear that some Hunters are just that ****ing good. Likewise Nyriss was clearly a complete beast who would hand Kenobi is ass too. Scourge has the accolades at the time to make him a significantly skilled and powerful combatant. Even if he is behind Kenobi, he is not so pathetic that he couldn't reach him in 300 years. Revan and Nyriss sensed incredible potential from him, so he'd be a lot more powerful after those 300 years. He has time, reason and opportunity to vastly increase his already respectable skills. Vitiate boosted his capabilities. Everything points to him equaling or surpassing Obi-Wan as the Emperor's Wrath.

I've realised and admitted that Scourge as of Revan is not on Kenobi's level. But he is not as far off that Kenobi could beat him in seconds. Or that with the huge increase from that level to TOR that he couldn't equal or surpass Kenobi. Get your mouth off of Kenobi's dick for a minute and actually pay attention to the facts and try to apply some logic.

Originally posted by Master Han
By RotS, only five match or surpass him in swordsmanship. One is explicitly the most powerful light sider to that point in the mythos. Another is explicitly the most powerful sith lord in history. The third defeated said sith lord. The fourth is described as one of the greatest duelists the Order has ever produced. The fifth is the Chosen One, and still lost to Kenobi in their duel.

Your logic doesn't make much sense anyway, since Scourge would also get his ass kicked by any variety of foes from TOR era, and contrary to your subjective opinion, the RotS order > TOR order by canon.

That doesn't make him as good as you are saying (also you're forgetting Dooku). He would still struggle against numerous opponents and Council members.

No he wouldn't.

Originally posted by Master Han
Doesn't change the fact that Kenobi's accolades, from both his peers and his enemies, and also from OOU narrators and encyclopedias, [b]far surpass Scourge's own.[/b]

So does Shaak Ti's. Do you think she's whoop Scourges ass too?

And it kind of.... does change the fact. I'm not accepting that stupid 'best soresu master ever' crap anymore, so I'm also not buying that Kenobi's accolade far surpass Scourges. You can pull out that 'one of the greatest swordman in history' quote (Btw, do that. Source and quote please), but thats too ambiguous and can refer to too many people to mean jack shit to me.

Emperor's Wrath >>

Originally posted by Master Han
Quality > quantity.

wallbash

How about actually rebutting my argument instead of recycling trite phrases? Based upon his record and what we can deduce about his abilities, I feel comfortable putting Scourge on the list of greatest of all time.

Prove me wrong. You can't though, because its an ambiguous phrase so Scourge could reasonable be on it depending upon the subjective level of leeway anyone were to give it.

Originally posted by Master Han
And I still don't understand why you arbitrarily declare that any dark council members Scourge has offed match Kenobi in combative ability. I also don't understand why you think the Emperor's Wrath would encounter these foes and attack them in a fair fight, despite his having the Emperor's resources and the element of surprise on his side.

Did I say that? I don't think so. Though certain TOR Council Members certainly are above Kenobi: Jadus, Marr, Nox, Baras, Thanaton. And a bunch of others from history.

And I think that because thats exactly how Scourge operates in the game. When he goes to kill Sajar he simply walks up alone to a heavily defended Republic base to kill him singlehandedly. When he's defending the Emperor he just stands in front of his throne with his lightsaber drawn.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, let me see if I can get this through to you with this line of questioning. Solve this equation:

(X - Revan Scourge) = (300 years + Vitiate boost)

Where X is a certain combatant at which, in your minds, can defeat the Emperor's Wrath at his peak.

It goes without saying that I would like some reasoning as to [b]why you chose the combatant you will select. We already know that the HoT > X. If you designate RotS Anakin, explain why you picked him, and not, say, RotS Windu. etc.[/b]

I don't understand what you're asking me to figure out. Why subtracting Revan!Scourge from X? Thats hardly fair or sensible.

If you want me to give you an estimation of what I believe Scourges level is, I've already said, he's at least as good as Kenobi and Maul, and good enough to give Dooku a good fight.

And I'm not solving that stupid equation because I don't see the relevance or point. Try answering my actual point instead of this nonsensical bullshit:

'Because it is self-evident. Its hardly rocket science here. Scourge had already grown to be a great swordsman in 30 years of his life. Giving him an extra 300 years, ten times that amount, would logically significantly improve his abilities. Now the gap between 'master of multiple forms' Revan!Scourge and Kenobi might be large, but there is no doubt that it would have closed in those 300 years between that and TOR!Scourge. A child could understand this, and obviously you can because I doubt you're actually a dumb as you're coming off as. If someone can reach a certain level of skill in 30 years, then they can obviously improve upon that level quite a ****ing lot with an extra 300 years, with a boost to their capabilities, while constantly making use of that skill and with the finest resources there are to help their improve that skill.'

If someone can grow to a level 5 in 30 years, no shit can they grow to a level 9 in 300. You're being needlessly dim about this and not explaining to me why you don't think its the case that Scourge would reach Kenobi's level in 300 years. So far all you've done is tout Kenobi's accolades without responding to the logical argument I've made. I want you to do this. I want you to logically conclude why Scrouge wouldn't grow from a Juyo master in Revan to being Kenobi level in TOR.

If you don't even bother to do that I won't respond, because you wouldn't have responded to the meat of my argument.

Originally posted by Master Han
Firstly, Marek is not "a cut above" Dooku. Secondly, none of the combatants you mention would lose to Scourge in a duel.

Marek is a cut above Dooku. 😐

That's irrelevant. I'm just pointing out that despite being "the best swordsman in star wars" Kenobi is actually mediocre in the grand scheme of things, making your continual stroking of his accolades quite funny. You're acting as if Kenobi is on a tier that Scourge could never approach when that is patently false and laughable.

How's your back doing?

Originally posted by Nephthys
True, but thats a false comparison. Luke is the very top of the ladder. Kenobi meanwhile is only slightly above Jedi Council level.

How is Kenobi only "slightly above" Jedi Council level? Aside from what would, in other eras, be a once-in-a-millennium Jedi, a 900 year old sage explicitly the most powerful light sider to ever oppose the darkness, and the Chosen One conceived by the Force, Kenobi is a cut above everyone on the most powerful, if not the most competent, High Council shown to date.

The fact is that Kenobi and the type of opponents are a at that level, which is only a bit above the level we can reasonably expect Scourge to have been operating against. That level of quality is not such that it outweighs the sheer amount of Scourges victories.

"only a bit above" is enough for me; that Scourge can continuously defeat foes with a power level of 8000 does not somehow prove that he can defeat a foe with a power level over 9000.

Quality can be above quantity, but only when it is significantly so. Scourge isn't fighting weaklings half as good as Kenobi is. He's fighting extremely powerful Jedi and Dark Council level Sith.

The formula is not that simple. I can't continuously fight and defeat random street thugs X amount of times and then declare that I can take on Ali in his prime. To use a less exaggerated analogy, that I can continuously bench 300 pounds every day (I can't, BTW) doesn't lead to the conclusion that I can bench 310, except indirectly to build my muscles. If we learn in the rumored Yoda movie that he had once fought a Kenobi-level opponent every day for 200 years, do we now conclude that he can tool LotF Luke and DE Palpatine together by some weird RPG exp-points accumulation? 😉

Yes. The whole point of the Emperor's Wrath is to be a force Vitiate can rely upon outside of and above even the Council, and if necessary to deal with them should they get too ambitious. Being above the Dark Council is in Scourge's job description.

Above in terms of authority, but from the standpoint of power, Vitiate initially chose Scourge because he trusted him, whereas some of the more powerful members of the dark council simply couldn't be trusted to take the mantle.

Because blasters overtook their effectiveness. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't allow Scourge protection from Kenobi's Force attacks or lightsaber on top of his heavy armor.

That's good for him, but since I never really brought Obi Wan's offensive Force abilities into the mix, and since lightsabers have vastly superior penetrating ability to even OT era blasters...

He was. Just because he struggled against a Bounty Hunter doesn't make him weak. The BH campaign in SWTOR makes it clear that some Hunters are just that ****ing good.

AotC Obi Wan had Jango Fett on the ropes (see AotC novelization), with Jango only managing to escape with fire support from Slave 1. This same Jango Fett was the one person the Kaminos had chosen as the genetic template for their clone army. He was the last known mandolorian, and had allegedly killed Jedi with his bare hands.

Likewise Nyriss was clearly a complete beast who would hand Kenobi is ass too.

Your only logic to support this contention is to circularly define her victory against Scourge and Exile important. I'd point more solidly toward her getting joke-one-shotted by Revan.

I've realised and admitted that Scourge as of Revan is not on Kenobi's level. But he is not as far off that Kenobi could beat him in seconds. Or that with the huge increase from that level to TOR that he couldn't equal or surpass Kenobi. Get your mouth off of Kenobi's dick for a minute and actually pay attention to the facts and try to apply some logic.

And exactly what of Revan Scourge's feats and accolades that put him anywhere near Kenobi as of AotC, let alone RotS?

Is it being a "master swordsman"? Grievous has tooled Jedi that have tooled Jedi that have been described as master swordsmen, and Obi Wan disarmed half his lightsabers in 25 seconds.

Is it almost dying to a bounty hunter?

Is it losing horribly to a past-her-prime sith lord that later gets one shotted by a drug-addled Revan?

I want some assertive evidence, not excuses and rationalizations for why he doesn't suck (which I never said he did).

That doesn't make him as good as you are saying (also you're forgetting Dooku). He would still struggle against numerous opponents and Council members.

I'm not forgetting Dooku. I listed five. Yoda, Palpatine, Windu, Dooku and Anakin.

So does Shaak Ti's. Do you think she's whoop Scourges ass too?

Wait, hang on a second...so you're admitting that Kenobi has the superior feats and accolades? 😕

And it kind of.... does change the fact. I'm not accepting that stupid 'best soresu master ever' crap anymore, so I'm also not buying that Kenobi's accolade far surpass Scourges. You can pull out that 'one of the greatest swordman in history' quote (Btw, do that. Source and quote please), but thats too ambiguous and can refer to too many people to mean jack shit to me.

You do realize that, whilst "one of the greatest swordsmen in history" is not entirely a solidly defined label, neither is "master swordsmen", which you've used repeatedly, right?

And you already specifically referenced the soresu-master line from the RotS novelization, so IDK why you suddenly want sources.

Prove me wrong. You can't though, because its an ambiguous phrase so Scourge could reasonable be on it depending upon the subjective level of leeway anyone were to give it.

I've already pointed out that it's possible for Scourge to be at or above Kenobi's level. I've also pointed out that this is true for virtually all matchups in which we can't cross-powerscale and need to speculate from different eras. I've therefore concluded that, based on the feats, accolades and power-scaling we can go by, Kenobi is likely superior to Scourge by a pretty heavy preponderance of evidence.

I don't understand what you're asking me to figure out. Why subtracting Revan!Scourge from X? Thats hardly fair or sensible.

If you want me to give you an estimation of what I believe Scourges level is, I've already said, he's at least as good as Kenobi and Maul, and good enough to give Dooku a good fight.

And I'm not solving that stupid equation because I don't see the relevance or point. Try answering my actual point instead of this nonsensical bullshit:

I see you clearly missed the point, because it addresses precisely the "self evident" argument you make central to your entire argument.

You've "deduced" that Scourge has surpassed Kenobi after 300 years of experience. Here, you proclaim that he could "give Dooku a good fight".

Do you realize how arbitrary this proclamation is? What logic did you use to conclude that the 300 years put him just above Kenobi? Isn't it rather convenient that you came to such a conclusion? If the thread were instead Scourge vs. Shaak Ti, would you have decided that Scourge had done just enough to put him above Shaak Ti after 300 years?

I want you to place Scourge on the PT-era powerscale and explain WHY you placed him there and not somewhere else. Because it seems mighty convenient and arbitrary that you make up some mathematics and conclude that 300 years puts him above Kenobi, instead of just above Shaak Ti, or just above AotC Obi Wan.
\

If someone can grow to a level 5 in 30 years, no shit can they grow to a level 9 in 300.

You see, this is precisely the problem with your thinking here, as is the problem with your otherwise solid debating skills whenever you have to defend any ancient Jedi/Sith that tickles your fancy.

Why do you presume that Scourge is level 9 after 300 years? Why not level 8? Why not level 10? Why not level 242? Oh, you just conveniently conclude that he's grown to just the level so that he could take down Kenobi and give Dooku a good fight. Yet we both damn well know that, if this were Dooku vs Scourge, you'd say that he'd just grown to a point where he could take down Dooku, but not Yoda, etc.

So far all you've done is tout Kenobi's accolades without responding to the logical argument I've made.

Interesting accusation. Let's analyze the arguments you've made in support of named-ancient-character-195:

[list]
[*]He's a juyo master - Kenobi is above plenty of juyo masters. Indeed, Obi Wan himself seems to have a mastery or proficiency of multiple forms, from Soresu to Ataru and jar-kai, djem so, etc, so why do you think he couldn't learn juyo? Soresu simply suits him better. Juyo isn't inherently superior to every other lightsaber form.
[*]He's a master swordsman - I've mocked this enough...
[*]He's on the Exile's level - sadly, the Exile isn't portrayed as being very powerful in the novel.
[*]He's fought lots of powerful Jedi and Sith - yes, but being able to consistently score a 2200 on the SAT doesn't mean that you can just score a 2300 at will by some pseudo-mathematics
[*]After 300 years, he'd have surpassed Obi Wan - really? How arbitrary of you. He's surpassed Obi Wan but not Dooku? Why?
[/list]

Originally posted by Master Han
How's your back doing?

Still sore.

Originally posted by Master Han
How is Kenobi only "slightly above" Jedi Council level? Aside from what would, in other eras, be a once-in-a-millennium Jedi, a 900 year old sage explicitly the most powerful light sider to ever oppose the darkness, and the Chosen One conceived by the Force, Kenobi is a cut above everyone on the most powerful, if not the most competent, High Council shown to date.

WTF? Kenobi is not a cut above the rest of the Council. He's a bit above them, but as the ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi Vs ROTS Kit Fisto demonstrated Kenobi really is not that far above his peers.

Originally posted by Master Han
"only a bit above" is enough for me; that Scourge can continuously defeat foes with a power level of 8000 does not somehow prove that he can defeat a foe with a power level over 9000.

Well why the hell not? You touch on this in your next paragraph, but obviously fighting a shitton of level 8000's would improve your skills as you do so. I'm not talking about any RPG mechanic experience bullshit, I'm talking about the natural process of learning through doing. Naturally if you swordfight a shitload of people, you'll get better at swordfighting through honing your abilities in combat. The best boxers aren't just big, strong and well trained, they also have a ton of experience fighting other boxers. They know when to attack, when to back off, etc. My argument is that with eleven hundred victories under his belt, Scourge would have gotten ****ing good at fighting people. Its just like his codex entry says, he's got so much experience that he can tell a persons weaknesses in a single glance. The same thing applies to his skills as a lightsaber duelist, which would have been honed to a razor-edge in the heat of battle.

Originally posted by Master Han
The formula is not that simple. I can't continuously fight and defeat random street thugs X amount of times and then declare that I can take on Ali in his prime. To use a less exaggerated analogy, that I can continuously bench 300 pounds every day (I can't, BTW) doesn't lead to the conclusion that I can bench 310, except indirectly to build my muscles. If we learn in the rumored Yoda movie that he had once fought a Kenobi-level opponent every day for 200 years, do we now conclude that he can tool LotF Luke and DE Palpatine together by some weird RPG exp-points accumulation? 😉

Exactly my point, highlighted area! Thank you. Obviously you would be able to bench 310 after continuously excising you muscles in that way. You automatically improve by doing an activity over and over again. You have given me the perfect example of why my argument makes sense. I'm not arguing that he beat all those people because he's better, I'm arguing that he's better because he beat all those people!

Originally posted by Master Han
Above in terms of authority, but from the standpoint of power, Vitiate initially chose Scourge because he trusted him, whereas some of the more powerful members of the dark council simply couldn't be trusted to take the mantle.

And again, the Emperor's Wrath is a higher position than the Dark Council, so that he can act above and against the Council if he so needs to. The whole point of the Wrath is to keep over-ambitious DC members in line or to execute them if they cross said line. Theres a reason his entry says "Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title "the Emperor's Wrath."

Originally posted by Master Han
That's good for him, but since I never really brought Obi Wan's offensive Force abilities into the mix, and since lightsabers have vastly superior penetrating ability to even OT era blasters...

Except that personal shield generators have been known to block lightsabers:

Lightsaber tech hasn't improved between Kotor and the OT and as of Kotor personal shields are used to defend against lightsabers.

Originally posted by Master Han
AotC Obi Wan had Jango Fett on the ropes (see AotC novelization), with Jango only managing to escape with fire support from Slave 1. This same Jango Fett was the [b]one person the Kaminos had chosen as the genetic template for their clone army. He was the last known mandolorian, and had allegedly killed Jedi with his bare hands.[/b]

Obi-Wan still struggled with him and almost died in that fight. Same with Scourge. TOR-era Bounty Hunters take out better Jedi than AotC Kenobi anyway.

Originally posted by Master Han
Your only logic to support this contention is to circularly define her victory against Scourge and Exile important. I'd point more solidly toward her getting joke-one-shotted by Revan.

Revan didn't one-shot her himself. And as I've said, the Exile is a ****ing amazing Jedi who's defeated entire Sith Temples and owned Traya and Sion repeatedly one after each other. Nyriss humiliating her is like if a new character appeared on CW and beat Ventress* in 5 seconds, while also beating up Plo Koon or something. You're damn right that would make us sit up. She owned the Exile in a single attack, when Kreia (who killed 10 Sith assassins just by walking passed them) couldn't do that to the Exile and got her ass kicked by her.

Its not that she just beat those two. Its that she completely owned them, with the Exile being demonstrably ****ing powerful. At the very least you have to admit that she's Jedi Council level. And anyone who can casually own a Jedi Council level opponent is pretty damn good.

*Being generous with Ventress.

Originally posted by Master Han
And exactly [b]what of Revan Scourge's feats and accolades that put him anywhere near Kenobi as of AotC, let alone RotS?

Is it being a "master swordsman"? Grievous has tooled Jedi that have tooled Jedi that have been described as master swordsmen, and Obi Wan disarmed half his lightsabers in 25 seconds.

Is it almost dying to a bounty hunter?

Is it losing horribly to a past-her-prime sith lord that later gets one shotted by a drug-addled Revan?

I want some assertive evidence, not excuses and rationalizations for why he doesn't suck (which I never said he did).[/b]

He's a Juyo master. 'High-end master of multiple forms.' How many forms has Kenobi mastered as of AotC again? Is it more than one? I'm only pointing out his level of skill here. But, he's clearly powerful enough for Vitiate to be aware of him and to choose him for important shit in the book and to be his Wrath. He's strong enough to kill a man by crushing his head with his foot. Powerful enough to shatter metal with his TK. Fast enough to outrun automated speeder cannons. Implied to be near to or equal to the Exile so I've heard. He also beat the leader of the Imperial Guards plus another Guard in raw swordsmanship. You might snigger, but the Imperial Guards are the finest warriors in the galaxy, 'unmatched in martial skill' and can draw on Vitiates power.

You're definitely implying that he sucks if you don't even think he's near AotC Kenobi, who I recall as being a terribly average Jedi Master.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm not forgetting Dooku. I listed five. Yoda, Palpatine, Windu, Dooku and Anakin.

Oh. I thought you meant Kit Fisto.

...... Ok, you forgot Kit Fisto then.

[QUOTE=14433791]Originally posted by Master Han
[B]Wait, hang on a second...so you're admitting that Kenobi [b]has the superior feats and accolades? 😕[/b]

No, you know what I mean. I'm pointing out that the 'greatest swordsman ever' line can apply to her as well. Does she whoop Scourge too or not?

Originally posted by Master Han
You do realize that, whilst "one of the greatest swordsmen in history" is not entirely a solidly defined label, neither is "master swordsmen", which you've used repeatedly, right?

And you already specifically referenced the soresu-master line from the RotS novelization, so IDK why you suddenly want sources.

Funny, I just checked the thread and I've only used that phrase once, in response to you using it. 😉 And no, since I've repeatedly clarified that I rank Scourge as such because he's a 'high-end master of multiple forms' (specifically, Soresu and Ataru not counting Juyo as well obviously). I'd say thats rather solidly defined.

I'm talking about your source for Kenobi being one of the greatest swordsman of all time. You know, the thing you've been throwing in my face so much. That is an actual quote right? It wasn't-it wasn't just the Mace Windu thing right???

Oh my, if thats it.......

Originally posted by Master Han
I've already pointed out that it's possible for Scourge to be at or above Kenobi's level. I've also pointed out that this is true for virtually all matchups in which we can't cross-powerscale and need to speculate from different eras. I've therefore concluded that, based on the feats, accolades and power-scaling we can go by, Kenobi is [b]likely superior to Scourge by a pretty heavy preponderance of evidence.[/b]

Good. So if you can accept the possibility of it being true, all thats left is for you to engage with the logic I am putting forward and actually respond to that instead of only looking at feats and accolades.

Originally posted by Master Han
I see you clearly missed the point, because it addresses precisely the "self evident" argument you make central to your entire argument.

You've "deduced" that Scourge has surpassed Kenobi after 300 years of experience. Here, you proclaim that he could "give Dooku a good fight".

Do you realize how arbitrary this proclamation is? What logic did you use to conclude that the 300 years put him just above Kenobi? Isn't it rather convenient that you came to such a conclusion? If the thread were instead Scourge vs. Shaak Ti, would you have decided that Scourge had done just enough to put him above Shaak Ti after 300 years?

I want you to place Scourge on the PT-era powerscale and [b]explain WHY you placed him there and not somewhere else. Because it seems mighty convenient and arbitrary that you make up some mathematics and conclude that 300 years puts him above Kenobi, instead of just above Shaak Ti, or just above AotC Obi Wan.
\[/b]

Um hello? You yourself used the 'self-evident' argument to say that 'one of the greatest of all time' is above 'master swordsman' and 'instructor's hesitant to face him'. Why did you come to that decision? Because you used your intuition. You intuitively weighed them in you head and came to a decision about which is superior, like if you were asked to decide if disintegrating a boulder or shattering it was more impressive. Theres nothing arbitrary there, you're simply weighing the evidence and coming to a conclusion.

I say he could because Scourge is clearly a great combatant who nonetheless is below the Hero of Tython as of Act 2. I say it because of his rank at or above high-end Dark Council tier, about where Dooku would go as a combatant. I say it because no matter what I logically deduce, Dooku is powerful enough that I wouldn't put Scourge above him without the feats to back it up. Kenobi isn't as powerful as Dooku though, nor is he as fast and skilled as he is. That is why when weighing it up I put Scourge as about between them or on Kenobi's level.

Really though I'm trying not to be as fair as possible. I'm saying that Scourge is on Kenobi's level because I think that he would have at least have bridged the gap from Revan!Scourge to Kenobi as of TOR. Anything else would require a higher burden of proof than I am capable of giving. I think that its only reasonable to conclude that someone would grow from an excellent swordsman as of Revan to a Kenobi-level one as of TOR, based on the evidence I've given. Personally I think that in all that time he likely would have mastered ALL lightsaber forms given that he mastered 3 of them in a tenth of the time! Which would make him much more skilled than Kenobi. I'm not pushing my luck though. I'm saying that he's as good as Kenobi because that is the lowest that I think he could possibly be at after those 300 years and the highest I can actually argue him to be at based upon the evidence that I have. *

And yes, I would say Scourge is above Shaak Ti.

*Depending on if you think Maul is above Kenobi. I'm also arguing that Scourge is about on Mauls level in the other thread.

Originally posted by Master Han
You see, this is precisely the problem with your thinking here, as is the problem with your otherwise solid debating skills whenever you have to defend any ancient Jedi/Sith that tickles your fancy.

Why do you presume that Scourge is level 9 after 300 years? Why not level 8? Why not level 10? Why not level 242? Oh, you just conveniently conclude that he's grown to just the level so that he could take down Kenobi and give Dooku a good fight. Yet we both damn well know that, if this were Dooku vs Scourge, you'd say that he'd just grown to a point where he could take down Dooku, but not Yoda, etc.

He's not a level 10 because the Hero of Tython beat him.

Looks like you didn't do your homework because I have in fact argued Scourge vs Dooku and the most I said was that Scourge can give him a good fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
Interesting accusation. Let's analyze the arguments you've made in support of named-ancient-character-195:

[list]
[*]He's a juyo master - Kenobi is above plenty of juyo masters. Indeed, Obi Wan himself seems to have a mastery or proficiency of multiple forms, from Soresu to Ataru and jar-kai, djem so, etc, so why do you think he couldn't learn juyo? Soresu simply suits him better. Juyo isn't inherently superior to every other lightsaber form.
[*]He's a master swordsman - I've mocked this enough...
[*]He's on the Exile's level - sadly, the Exile isn't portrayed as being very powerful in the novel.
[*]He's fought lots of powerful Jedi and Sith - yes, but being able to consistently score a 2200 on the SAT doesn't mean that you can just score a 2300 at will by some pseudo-mathematics
[*]After 300 years, he'd have surpassed Obi Wan - really? How arbitrary of you. He's surpassed Obi Wan but not Dooku? Why?
[/list]

* The Juyo thing is only relevant in that it establishes Scourge as a skilled lightsaber duelist. You can say 'oh kenobi can beat plenty of-' thats not the ****ing point! The point is that he's incredibly skilled to have mastered multiple lightsaber forms to a very high degree. Its establishing that Scourge is a very skilled lightsaber duelist. So that you cannot just brush off his skills, [b]as you are doing,[b] and ignore that even as of Revan Scourge had mastered multiple forms to very high degrees. Yes, Kenobi is an Ataru and Soresu master. Guess what? So is Scourge. Just as of Revan. I'm establishing a baseline for his abilities. And Juyo is superior to other lightsaber forms because to master it you need to be significantly excellent with several other forms, meaning that being a Juyo master in of itself indicates a higher level of skill than merely being a Soresu master. You might not actually more skilled, but by itself it does indicate a higher level of skill.
* I said that once.
* Well too bad, because she is very powerful as of canon. She's not portrayed as canon because Karpyshan, as he has admitted, hardly knew a thing about her. Her appearing weak can be blamed on him being uninformed of her abilities, not on her actually be not very powerful. Canonically, she still shitstomped the Trayas Academy and Traya and Sion on the most powerful Darkside nexus in the galaxy (other than Nathema I think). She's still a better telepath after one training session than Mrs. Talk across the galaxy. She stilll has advanced Battle Precognition. She's still a master of about 8 different lightsaber and force forms.
* A persons abilities expand and mature through use. Fighting over a thousand powerful opponents would naturally improve your abilities vastly.
* How powerful do you think he would have gotten?

Neph, you still haven't replied to my PM.

[Palpatine]Do it![/Palpatine]

You also forgot to mention that he was Scourge's equal as of Revan. Scourge became more powerful after that. So no, he's not on the Exile's level. As of TOR, he's better. And the Exile is considerably powerful. The fact that he became more powerful than her is an indication of his skills.

Do you mean he's the Exiles equal?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, you still haven't replied to my PM.

[Palpatine]Do it![/Palpatine]

Don't PRESSURE ME!!!!!

RAAARARRAAUUUAAAAUUAGHGHGGHGGGGHHGH!

No, I mean he isn't. I mean he's more powerful, because he was the Exile's equal as of Revan. As of TOR, he's more skilled.

Oh jesus I made a lot of typos in that response. Shit my ****ing ballsack.

Apparently there are millions of Sith vying for a place on the Dark Council at any time.....

Meaning Vitiates Empire is composed of millions of Sith. Huh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Um hello? You yourself used the 'self-evident' argument to say that 'one of the greatest of all time' is above 'master swordsman' and 'instructor's hesitant to face him'.

I wasn't under the impression that you contested this, since you admitted that Obi Wan > Scourge in terms of feats and accolades.

Because you used your intuition.

🙄

Yeah, nice try...but no.

I say he could because Scourge is clearly a great combatant who nonetheless is below the Hero of Tython as of Act 2.

Good.

So we know that Scourge < (pre-peak) HoT.

This establishes an upper limit to his abilities. Nowhere is a lower limit established that would justify your putting him above Kenobi.

I say it because of his rank at or above high-end Dark Council tier, about where Dooku would go as a combatant.

Begging the question. Dooku would trash everyone on the (dueling prime-age) RotS council barring Yoda and Windu, the former of which is an exceptional case, and the latter of which only really surpasses him by RotS.

I say it because no matter what I logically deduce, Dooku is powerful enough that I wouldn't put Scourge above him without the feats to back it up. Kenobi isn't as powerful as Dooku though, nor is he as fast and skilled as he is. That is why when weighing it up I put Scourge as about between them or on Kenobi's level.

OK, and here's the issue (again) with your line of logic.

Why can't I substitute "Dooku" with "Kenobi" and "Kenobi" with "Shaak Ti"?

Isn't it mightily convenient that you happen to state that 300 years puts him above Kenobi, but not Dooku, or Revan, or Plagueis? Why not? Because you say so? Because it just happens to fit your stance in this particular thread?

Really though I'm trying not to be as fair as possible. I'm saying that Scourge is on Kenobi's level because I think that he would have at least have bridged the gap from Revan!Scourge to Kenobi as of TOR.

Circular logic. Why do you insist on justifying your primary contention by restating it in a slightly different tone?

And why do you think you can get away with calling it "self evident" that TOR Scourge > Kenobi, but not that TOR Scourge > Dooku?

I'm saying that he's as good as Kenobi because that is the lowest that I think he could possibly be at after those 300 years and the highest I can actually argue him to be at based upon the evidence that I have.

Well, you've shifted your position again, since you'd earlier been quite confident in putting him solidly above Kenobi. Now, however, I would like you to explain, without using your contention to support itself, why Kenobi just happens to be the lowest you could place him.

And yes, I would say Scourge is above Shaak Ti.

Why?

He's not a level 10 because the Hero of Tython beat him.

OK, let's say HoT is level 10 at that stage and Kenobi is level 6. Explain why you put Scourge at level 6/7 and not, say, 8, or 4.

* The Juyo thing is only relevant in that it establishes Scourge as a skilled lightsaber duelist.

Where do I ever deny this? This seems to be nothing more than a bare minimum to prove that Scourge can last at least 5 seconds against Kenobi, yet you continue to bring it up as a core contention.

* Well too bad, because she is very powerful as of canon. She's not portrayed as canon because Karpyshan, as he has admitted, hardly knew a thing about her. Her appearing weak can be blamed on him being uninformed of her abilities, not on her actually be not very powerful. Canonically, she still shitstomped the Trayas Academy and Traya and Sion on the most powerful Darkside nexus in the galaxy (other than Nathema I think). She's still a better telepath after one training session than Mrs. Talk across the galaxy. She stilll has advanced Battle Precognition. She's still a master of about 8 different lightsaber and force forms.

🙄 Even ignoring your casual throwing out of canon evidence because you personally disagree with it, you do realize that, if you consider the Exile's portrayal in Revan to be antithetical to her demonstrated power in KOTOR, we must conclude that we cannot draw conclusions from Karpyshan's putting Scourge on Meetra's level by the same logic, right?

* How powerful do you think he would have gotten?

That's what I've constantly asked you. I'd say that he should be on the level of Qui Gon Jinn or mid CW Obi Wan to be able to keep most of the council in line.

You only replied to a tiny portion of my response. >:C

Feel free to show me the portions I snipped that I could not have done for the sake of avoiding redundancies. I think I address your relevant contentions just fine.

You should reply to my point about Scourges experiences exercising him like a person working out exercising his muscles.

Also the stuff about him beating the Imperial Guard. Because I have a sweet quote about them that makes Scourge look really impressive to have beaten those 2 Guardsmen in Revan.

Originally posted by Master Han
I wasn't under the impression that you contested this, since you admitted that Obi Wan > Scourge in terms of feats and accolades.

I'm not contesting it, I'm using it to make a point.

Originally posted by Master Han
🙄

Yeah, nice try...but no.

Yes. You didn't examine why that description trumps the others, you said it was self-evident. You used you intuition to weigh those quotes and you intuitively knew which was superior. Admit it, you filthy hypocrite! ADMIT IT!

Originally posted by Master Han
Good.

So we know that Scourge < (pre-peak) HoT.

This establishes an [b]upper limit to his abilities. Nowhere is a lower limit established that would justify your putting him above Kenobi.[/b]

Actually there is, as I explained to you:

"Really though I'm trying not to be as fair as possible. I'm saying that Scourge is on Kenobi's level because I think that he would have at least have bridged the gap from Revan!Scourge to Kenobi as of TOR. Anything else would require a higher burden of proof than I am capable of giving. I think that its only reasonable to conclude that someone would grow from an excellent swordsman as of Revan to a Kenobi-level one as of TOR, based on the evidence I've given. Personally I think that in all that time he likely would have mastered ALL lightsaber forms given that he mastered 3 of them in a tenth of the time! Which would make him much more skilled than Kenobi. I'm not pushing my luck though. I'm saying that he's as good as Kenobi because that is the lowest that I think he could possibly be at after those 300 years and the highest I can actually argue him to be at based upon the evidence that I have."

The lower limit is Kenobi.

Originally posted by Master Han
Begging the question. Dooku would trash everyone on the (dueling prime-age) RotS council barring Yoda and Windu, the former of which is an exceptional case, and the latter of which only really surpasses him by RotS.

As I said, yeah, about high Dark Council level. Scourge's job is to partially to watch over the Dark Council (as said in SWTORE) and his codex entry says that "Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title "the Emperor's Wrath."

I already listed why I put the upper-tier Council members on Dooku's tier. Jadus can teleport and blocked his 600 meter long ship from disintegration. Marr can rout entire armies and is the defacto no2 in the Empire. Nox wields the power of 5 Sith Lords and is borderline invulnerable. Baras fought and rivaled Satale in her peak. Nyriss shat on the Exile. The Dark Council is the best among millions of powerful Sith. Dooku being in their upper echelons is about right imo.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, and here's the issue (again) with your line of logic.

[b]Why can't I substitute "Dooku" with "Kenobi" and "Kenobi" with "Shaak Ti"?

Isn't it mightily convenient that you happen to state that 300 years puts him above Kenobi, but not Dooku, or Revan, or Plagueis? Why not? Because you say so? Because it just happens to fit your stance in this particular thread?[/b]

I explain why. Asking me this is pointless.

What does this matter? The only relevant factor is if Scourge is better than Kenobi. It isn't just because its my stance in this thread. As I said, so check my other thread on Scourge, I rate him exactly as high as I do here.

Originally posted by Master Han
Circular logic. Why do you insist on justifying your primary contention by restating it in a slightly different tone?

And why do you think you can get away with calling it "self evident" that TOR Scourge > Kenobi, but not that TOR Scourge > Dooku?

Because Dooku is a superior swordsman to Kenobi. Theres a higher burden of proof to make that claim than to claim than he's above Kenobi.

Originally posted by Master Han
Well, you've shifted your position again, since you'd earlier been quite confident in putting him solidly above Kenobi. Now, however, I would like you to explain, without using your contention to support itself, why Kenobi just happens to be the lowest you could place him.

I've already said. Goddamn, this reply is completely worthless, you're just making me say things I already said in the last one. Kenobi is the lowest because the lowest Scourge could possibly improve would be to his level. It is completely ****ing retarded to think that Scourge could become a high level master of 3 forms in 30 years and not go from that to being a top-tier master in at least one form like Kenobi, in three hundred years.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why?

Derp. Someones not being paying attention to every ****ing thing I've said which explains to you why I would say that.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, let's say HoT is level 10 at that stage and Kenobi is level 6. Explain why you put Scourge at level 6/7 and not, say, 8, or 4.

I did.

Originally posted by Master Han
Where do I ever deny this? This seems to be nothing more than a bare minimum to prove that Scourge can last at least 5 seconds against Kenobi, yet you continue to bring it up as a core contention.

I KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW! I know. Because it is the bare minimum Scourge is at THREE. HUNDRED. YEARS. BEFORE HIS PRIME. How many times do I have to say it!? Do I have to literally write it on your brain with my bare hands before you understand the words that I am saying?

Scourge is at a certain level at Revan. The reason I bring it up is because I'm establishing what that level is. So that I can establish that as the baseline for his abilities to grow from to TOR. Also, no Kenobi couldn't own a person highly skilled in 3 different forms in 5 seconds, don't be ridiculous.

Originally posted by Master Han
🙄 Even ignoring your casual throwing out of canon evidence because you personally disagree with it, you do realize that, if you consider the Exile's portrayal in Revan to be antithetical to her demonstrated power in KOTOR, we must conclude that we [b]cannot draw conclusions from Karpyshan's putting Scourge on Meetra's level by the same logic, right?[/b]

I... know. I've already said that I'm deeply skeptical about it and wouldn't put them on the same level. There was still a comparison made though, and thats still worth noting in his favor.

Originally posted by Master Han
That's what I've constantly asked you. I'd say that he should be on the level of Qui Gon Jinn or mid CW Obi Wan to be able to keep most of the council in line.

And I answered. Then I asked it back.

Also Qui-Gon Jinn sucks and Scourge who own him. Jinn couldn't keep the Council in line, wtf are you smoking?

Oh, for ****'s sake.

Me: How can Scourge beat Kenobi with inferior feats and accolades?
You: Because he's had 300 years of experience.
Me: How do you know this is enough to put him above Kenobi?
You: Because he's had 300 years of experience.
Me: So, would you put him above Dooku?
You: Nah.
Me: Why not?
You: Because Dooku > Obi Wan.
Me: OK...so why is the cutoff at Obi Wan? Why not Shaak Ti? Why not Dooku?
You: I don't understand what you're saying!
Me: Why is Scourge on Obi Wan's level, but not Dooku's?
You: Because 300 years is enough to put him on Obi Wan's level, but not Dooku's.
Me: How do you know this?
You: Because Dooku > Obi Wan!
Me: So...Obi Wan > Shaak Ti, so does this mean that Obi Wan > Scourge?
You: No!
Me: So why Obi Wan?
You: Because he's had 300 years of experience!

Can you please actually justify your assertion that Obi Wan < Scourge + 300 years < Dooku WITHOUT USING YOUR ASSERTION TO JUSTIFY ITSELF?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You should reply to my point about Scourges experiences exercising him like a person working out exercising his muscles.

Said Vodo to Exar Kun. 🙄

Also the stuff about him beating the Imperial Guard. Because I have a sweet quote about them that makes Scourge look really impressive to have beaten those 2 Guardsmen in Revan.

So what? Obi Wan's casually beaten two magnaguards.

You suck.

Imperial Guards > Magnaguards.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You suck.

Funny, coming from someone who claims that 300 years + Revan Scourge > Obi Wan...because 300 years + Revan Scourge > Obi Wan. You've literally devolved into using your contention to prove itself, in a chain of logic that you could find used in a ****ing textbook under "circular logic".

Why do you conclude: Obi Wan < Scourge < Dooku? Why not, Shaak Ti < Scourge < Obi Wan? Why not, Dooku < Scourge < Yoda? Oh, because you arbitrarily put your favorite character in convenient categories for your debating convenience.

gotta agree with Han on this, experience isnt all as much as u think, considering 1400 yr old vitiate< palpatine

Thats just not true, Han. 😬

It isn't convenience, its how far I'm willing to argue Scourge as being. Personally I think he probably is more skilled overall than Dooku (outside of Makashi cuz Dooku is straight up the bomb with Makashi), but I can't actually argue that with the evidence I have. You won't even accept that he's Obi-Wan level, how the **** could I reasonably argue he's above Dooku?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats just not true, Han. 😬

It isn't convenience, its how far I'm willing to argue Scourge as being. Personally I think he probably is more skilled overall than Dooku (outside of Makashi cuz Dooku is straight up the bomb with Makashi), but I can't actually argue that with the evidence I have. You won't even accept that he's Obi-Wan level, how the **** could I reasonably argue he's above Dooku?

OK, Nephthys. So, give an argument to support your contention that 300 years of experience would be sufficient to put Scourge above Obi Wan.

Hint: the answer cannot be because "300 years of experience would be sufficient to put Scourge above Obi Wan".