Scourge became a high end master of 3 forms as of Revan, in which he is approximately 30 years old. With ten times that amount of time between Revan and TOR and with several factors that would increase his ability to improve his skills, its childishly simple to deduce that his skills would multiply a few times, putting him above Kenobi in terms of skill.
Boom. I win.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge became a high end master of 3 forms as of Revan, in which he is approximately 30 years old.
Eh...isn't Obi Wan only 33 by RotS, by which he's already a "high end" master of >3 forms? They're basically the same age.
With ten times that amount of time between Revan and TOR and with several factors that would increase his ability to improve his skills, its childishly simple to deduce that his skills would multiply a few times, putting him above Kenobi in terms of skill.
"multiply a few times" to put him above Kenobi? Why not Dooku? Why not Yoda? Why arbitrarily stop it at Kenobi? That's the problem with your argument; it's entirely ****ing arbitrary.
Also, you're assuming that Scourge will continuously grow stronger and stronger throughout the 3 centuries without eventually plateauing, which doesn't fit what we've come to see from combatants, which is that everyone eventually hits a peak and declines from there. And whereas Scourge, being essentially immortal, may not decline in ability, there's going to reach a point where he simply can't get any higher.
BTW...you really just restated your contention to prove itself, yet again. All you did was add in the "high end master of 3 forms" gig, which doesn't really matter much on this level.
It isn't a no-limits fallacy since there is a limit:
Complete mastery of all forms. 🙂
Originally posted by Master Han
Eh...isn't Obi Wan only 33 by RotS, by which he's already a "high end" master of >3 forms? They're basically the same age.
I don't think Kenobi is a "high end" master of >3 forms as of RotS? And yeah, Kenobi is better than Scourge is in Revan. Whats you point?
Originally posted by Master Han
"multiply a few times" to put him above Kenobi? Why not Dooku? Why not Yoda? Why arbitrarily stop it at Kenobi? That's the problem with your argument; it's entirely ****ing [b]arbitrary.Also, you're assuming that Scourge will continuously grow stronger and stronger throughout the 3 centuries without eventually plateauing, which doesn't fit what we've come to see from combatants, which is that everyone eventually hits a peak and declines from there. And whereas Scourge, being essentially immortal, may not decline in ability, there's going to reach a point where he simply can't get any higher.
BTW...you really just restated your contention to prove itself, yet again. All you did was add in the "high end master of 3 forms" gig, which doesn't really matter much. [/B]
Fine, put him above them if you want! I don't care!
You're right, he might..... after eclipsing Kenobi in skill obviously. To plateau like that he would have to master all lightsaber forms to the highest degree, otherwise obviously you wouldn't plateau since there'd be more to learn. Besides, Kenobi isn't so good that someone can't get better than him in 300 years, when they're already a great duelist to begin with. If Kenobi can get to that level in a mere 30 years then I don't see why Scourge couldn't in 300, when he's supposed to learn quicker as a Sith.
It does. Its logical to assume that if someone can reach a high level of skill in 30 years then he could reach a much, much higher level of skill in 300 years.
But not in having a complete mastery of all lightsaber forms.
It isn't about experience. Its about Scourge already being a great duelist in Revan, and thus we can logically deduce that if he continues to develop his skillz over 300 extra years that said skillz will develop a ****ing lot. Because he fights a shitton, has unlimited resources, and has a good reason to train.
Yeah, because maybe he plateaued. Sidious is at the top, so it makes passable sense that Vitiate wouldn't surpass him despite all the time cuz the top is the top.
That doesn't apply to Kenobi though, because he isn't at the top and Scourge can very easily surpass him if he so much as improved as much in the first 30 years of being the Wrath as he did in beforehand.
Also, yeah HoT beat him because she's really damn powerful. That doesn't apply to Kenobi though because Kenobi is not that powerful.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't a no-limits fallacy since there is a limit:Complete mastery of all forms. 🙂
No, that just isn't true. Like it or not, there's a certain limit to how good you can get at something, limits that are, if not absolute, large enough that even 3 centuries won't get you past it, ie. law of diminishing returns. Otherwise, Vodo would have kicked Exar Kun's ass.
And you still haven't explained why this logic also doesn't put Scourge above Dooku. After all, by your logic, he'd have mastered everything by then, right?
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Edit: btw, how did this whole argument start again? team 2 most likely wins
Yeah, earlier I thought it would be a closer fight, until I was informed that the Hero of Tython only defeated the Emperor under conditional circumstances. He/she dies to Sidious, and Kenobi defeats Scourge. Or, Scourge lasts five seconds against Palpatine, and then the two double-team HoT.
Originally posted by Master Han
No, that just isn't true. Like it or not, there's a certain limit to how good you can get at something, limits that are, if not absolute, large enough that even 3 centuries won't get you past it, ie. law of diminishing returns. Otherwise, Vodo would have kicked Exar Kun's ass.And you still haven't explained why this logic also doesn't put Scourge above Dooku. After all, by your logic, he'd have mastered everything by then, right?
Which only applies to each form individually. Its not like Scourge will master 2 more of them then like, his brain won't be able to contain the other ones. And he's already shown he's a skilled enough swordsman to master 3 forms in a tenth of the time, so its dumb to think he just... won't be able to grasp the other ones. Particularly since Shii-Cho and Niman are the easiest by far, whereas Juyo is the hardest and he's already proficient in it.
I never said it didn't. I only said I wouldn't argue him to be above Dooku. In fact I specifically said that personally I do think he'd be more skilled than Dooku on the other page. My personal opinions don't supersede what I can actually argue in good conscience.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which only applies to each form individually. Its not like Scourge will master 2 more of them then like, his brain won't be able to contain the other ones. And he's already shown he's a skilled enough swordsman to master 3 forms in a tenth of the time, so its dumb to think he just... won't be able to grasp the other ones. Particularly since Shii-Cho and Niman are the easiest by far, whereas Juyo is the hardest and he's already proficient in it.
I'm pretty sure Kenobi isn't the only duelist in history, or even in his time, to have mastered Soresu, yet he's solidly considered to be perhaps its greatest practitioner. The reason here being that he simply has a natural affinity for the form that may very well be beyond what Scourge can accomplish, even with an order of magnitude longer time to train. See Exar Kun vs. Vodo. See Vader vs. Cin Drallig. Or even Palpatine vs. Yoda.
I mean, with respect, if you could somehow study chess for three centuries, I still don't think you would beat Garry Kasparov.
I never said it didn't. I only said I wouldn't argue him to be above Dooku. In fact I specifically said that personally I do think he'd be more skilled than Dooku on the other page. My personal opinions don't supersede what I can actually argue in good conscience.
And why is Kenobi arbitrarily the limit to where you can argue with good conscience? Why doesn't the "self evident" logic work equally well against Dooku? And yet again, to save myself from reading a redundant reply, it can't be "because Dooku is more powerful than Obi Wan".