Please allow me to take lead on the numbering of points, it will make for much easier reading, as I can actually format this palaver with a semblance of aesthetes.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. I'm referring to his scaling off of his domination of opponents like Vader and ability to match opponents like Sidious.
1) What feats are we speaking of here? What domination? What matching? What distorted lens is the source material being viewed in where the occurring events don't materialise in anything other than nocturnal emissions? The last I heard from Syndicate, as some call him, the unbearable, was an indirect concession regarding the use of Dun Moch and a lack of confidence in his opponent that won Galen, in it's most literal sense, a short-lived victory over his former master. A premise that is described by the text itself. Other than that, he managed to resist a Force choke, which is nice, but so did Luke in ESB. As for matching Sidious, I think the word is being a little bit stretched, especially when it's being used to describe an incident involving a Force explosion where an unscathed Sidious lived and Galen died.
Dooku's feat would still not compare to matching Sidious as we've been actively shown Sidious is capable of choking him from across the Galaxy.
2) Ellimist raised a very good point today regarding this leetle scenario, and it's something I have brought up before when encountered with a sophistical case of prostrated comparisons. It happens far to often that one conflates an example of telekinesis in combat with something that happens very far away from a battle. There's a difference. There's no reason to think that Dooku would be actively producing a Force shield to prevent himself getting choked out. In this instance, he's as venerable to telekinetic strangulation as Admiral Ozzell was in the Empire Strikes Back. There's little reason to assume he would defend against the attack either, and in any case, rebutting a Force choke from the Emperor might need a longer window than just a couple of seconds, where the emperor drops him. Really, if Dooku was so easily overpowered by top drawer necromancers, than why didn't Yoda simply carry him away in a Force stretcher or pin him against a wall in await for backup. As we've seen before, It really isn't outside his character morals to dominate people with the Force- https://youtu.be/QnZaNNY_arU
I'd ask what you're referring to in regards to Dooku that puts him above Galen in control given it's been shown that Galen has telekinetically triggered explosives
3) Please clarify, because I don't trust any of your interpretations. For Dooku, we have various instances where a wavered concentration would be met with imminent defeat, yet he's able to pick apart one opponent with the Force while holding off the other with his lightsaber. Take Sora Bulq and Tholme for example, either of which could be considered a boss fight on their own for Galen - given the level of people that fight him - while Dooku simply makes a mockery of them.
and force pushed sub lightspeed fighters mid-flight
4) I know for a fact, that the tie fighters Galen has pushed, aren't travelling anywhere close to lightspeed, they are in fact, traveling no faster than 1200 Kilometres Per Hour, may I enlighten you to why that is:
By now the Imperials on the ground were calling for reinforcements from above. A trio of TIE-Fighters shrieked down through Kashyyk's atmosphere, stiching the blackened permacrete with needles of fire. He laughed mirthlessly. They considered that a solution? With a well-timed nudge on the lead TIE-Fighter's port solar gather panel, he sent it tumbling into the permacrete, where it exploded instantly. The impack shook the ground beneath his feet and sent cracks spreading across its face.
That gave him an idea. When the two remaining TIE-Fighters came around for another pass, he sent them both into the third and fifth moorings. The fourth took so much collateral damage that it fared almost as badly as its siblings. Only one mooring remained.
-- The Force Unleashed
As we can see above, the feat in question happens on the surface of Kashyyk, and I even took the methodological time to underline the word of importance. The tie fighter's have entered the atmosphere of the planet, which means the ships are enveloped in surrounding gasses that will cause the them to set ablaze when traveling past 30,000 KPH. As stated in the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, sublight drives are only engaged upon leaving a planet's atmosphere and in space combat. Well anyway, now that I've demonstrated why the Tie fighters in question can't simply Barry Allen zip around in places that aren't a vacuums, here's the less complex explanation. It is confirmed in both Canon and Legends sources, that Tie Fighters can travel no faster than 1200 kph in atmosphere, look it up or ask Zenwolf for more details.
4b) Why would you assume that space ships are traveling around at relativistic speeds when their sole purpose in this excerpt is to provide backup to a singly located Space station? You realise the impracticality, nay, the impossibility of the scenario here? The answer to me is obvious. Clearly thinking logically doesn't always take precedent when wanking our favourite character.
Can you please elaborate here? As far as I'm aware Galen has never attempted to penetrate the Force defenses of a shadow guard and failed. Unless you're just assuming he can't because he didn't.
5) It is only implied by the comic, but if you're to fire up the Nintendo Wii, and I've mentioned this to you in arguments you haven't been bothered to read, Galen is unable to penetrate the Force shields of these masked stooges in both versions of the game. The Wii version states that their shields can't be penetrated with direct telekinesis - ergo - he has to use the environment to aid his cause, as the invisible shields only protect against other Force intrusions, not momentum. Which lines perfectly well with everything else depicting this little skirmish. Bottom line - fodder can challenge Galen.
Vader has been confirmed to be more powerful then Anakin
6) Wrong again. Vader never reaches the types of accolade lavished upon Anakin Skywalker, as praised in various sources. These are both 3rd person and omniscient statements, while the only objections to this are Vader's own cognitive dissonance. A very weak basis for confirmation, as you so ineloquently state. He is a shadow of his former self; and no, that does not refer to potential, simple English is enough to invalidate that. It simply means he weaker than he was in the past. It means that the loss of living tissue and metal appendages make it harder for the Force to flow throughout his body, stifling his command of it.
It is true Vader didn't defeat Ben during the time that they had fought but that does not mean he was incapable of doing so had the fight gone on for a longer period.
7) And the time they did fight, neither really had the decisive edge over the other. One might be able to say that Vader was edging the tide slightly, but not in any significant manner in a way that Dooku would've retaliated to a stronger, and more skilled Kenobi. It's even mentioned that Kenobi's aged assault could have killed Vader. Not to mention the advantages Vader was opting in the stylistic department. He had knowledge of Kenobi's Soresu even before it's demotion, and he himself has fashioned a unique hybrid form that Kenobi has never encountered.
This doesn't have any bearing on RotS Obi Wan's capabilities however as Ben is confirmed to be more powerful then his RotS self
9) No he isn't, I thoroughly debunked your reasoning for this little idea. Like a rabbit caught in the headlights, you've yet to show any means to rebut it. He is again, a shadow of his former self in Force Power, skill and physicality. All factors included making him a worse combatant than AOTC Kenobi.
though like you said he's logically atrophied in skill and physical ability.
Concession accepted.
As for your Luke/Anakin comparison we know that Force potential does not always scale to greater growth as is clear if we compare someone like Galen and Anakin where Anakin grows from losing to Dooku to contending with Dooku throughout the Clone Wars.
10a) And just to clarify on the Anakin part, he was certainly contending better with Dooku in AOTC than Galen ever was with Sidious, lol. What happens in between those years of the Clone Wars is a pretty drastic change in development, in the TCW movie, only a couple of months after Attack of the Clones, he was already stalemating Dooku in the Saber department and he becomes decisively better than him by the time of Revenge of the Sith. Luke is pretty synonymous with Anakin in this respect, as he goes from loosing to Vader with merely the basic level of training to matching him in a calm state within two years. Which is more of a reflection of Vader's skills, as a shadow of his former self. Really, ROTJ Luke should't be much better than AOTC Anakin, if at all.
Galen grows from stalemating Rahm to contending with Sidious
Disgusting. The only article depicting a fight where Palpatine is genuinely serious, happens in the alternate ending of the game, a what if scenario, if you suppose. May I remind you what happened there:
Then this happens
Seems as if it's the latter case here given an opponent cannot be scaled as a combatant except off their accolades and showings and given they have none except for their performance against Galen that's the only thing they can be judged off of.
And when Galen is shit himself, that makes the few non showings his opponents have even shittier by contending with him, get my jist? What I'm trying to say, is that you don't like an analysis of Galen's preliminary boss fights, because it's a comparison that doesn't favour him. A quick glance at any of the characters he faces is a line of argument that end's in your defeat. Simple as that. And because of this trump card, it's a comparison you must not allow me to carry it to its conclusion, which is why you are trying to lead the conversation in a different direction. His ability to grab not-so-sub-light tie fighters doesn't make up for Ti's horrendous defeats at the hands of Grievous, and subsequence slapping of Galen. It doesn't make up for the fact that Random acolytes try him to unconventional methods when victory isn't imminent. It doesn't make up for the fact that Vader is a shadow of his former self, and the only reliable comparison we can make against the PT era, is one featuring Old Ben Kenobi.
Who said that was those characters only low showings in the mythos? I'm saying that using low showings for any character to invalidate them is not an unbiased or logical way to assess said characters.
The problem here is that you've chosen faulty proofs, what's worse is that the cherry picking is even less favourable considering the tree's they're picked from. I'm not the one making the argument for you, so until you can clarify with better examples, then there's no reason why I should agree with you.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
7) And the time they did fight, neither really had the decisive edge over the other. One might be able to say that Vader was edging the tide slightly, but not in any significant manner in a way that Dooku would've retaliated to a stronger, and more skilled Kenobi. It's even mentioned that Kenobi's aged assault could have killed Vader. Not to mention the advantages Vader was opting in the stylistic department. He had knowledge of Kenobi's Soresu even before it's demotion, and he himself has fashioned a unique hybrid form that Kenobi has never encountered.9) No he isn't, I thoroughly debunked your reasoning for this little idea. Like a rabbit caught in the headlights, you've yet to show any means to rebut it. He is again, a shadow of his former self in Force Power, skill and physicality. All factors included making him a worse combatant than AOTC Kenobi.
Concession accepted.
10a) And just to clarify on the Anakin part, he was certainly contending better with Dooku in AOTC than Galen ever was with Sidious, lol. What happens in between those years of the Clone Wars is a pretty drastic change in development, in the TCW movie, only a couple of months after Attack of the Clones, he was already stalemating Dooku in the Saber department and he becomes decisively better than him by the time of Revenge of the Sith. Luke is pretty synonymous with Anakin in this respect, as he goes from loosing to Vader with merely the basic level of training to matching him in a calm state within two years. Which is more of a reflection of Vader's skills, as a shadow of his former self. Really, ROTJ Luke should't be much better than AOTC Anakin, if at all.
Disgusting. The only article depicting a fight where Palpatine is genuinely serious, happens in the alternate ending of the game, a what if scenario, if you suppose. May I remind you what happened there:
Then this happens
And when Galen is shit himself, that makes the few non showings his opponents have even shittier by contending with him, get my jist? What I'm trying to say, is that you don't like an analysis of Galen's preliminary boss fights, because it's a comparison that doesn't favour him. A quick glance at any of the characters he faces is a line of argument that end's in your defeat. Simple as that. And because of this trump card, it's a comparison you must not allow me to carry it to its conclusion, which is why you are trying to lead the conversation in a different direction. His ability to grab not-so-sub-light tie fighters doesn't make up for Ti's horrendous defeats at the hands of Grievous, and subsequence slapping of Galen. It doesn't make up for the fact that Random acolytes try him to unconventional methods when victory isn't imminent. It doesn't make up for the fact that Vader is a shadow of his former self, and the only reliable comparison we can make against the PT era, is one featuring Old Ben Kenobi.
The problem here is that you've chosen faulty proofs, what's worse is that the cherry picking is even less favourable considering the tree's they're picked from. I'm not the one making the argument for you, so until you can clarify with better examples, then there's no reason why I should agree with you.
7. "Vader stroke toward the old man. As he drew nearer, Obi-Wan ignited his own lightsaber. The blue gleam of the blade flashed brightly.
Vader raised his weapon to attack, and Obi-Wan matched his pose.
"When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the Master."
"Only a master of evil, Darth." With that, Obi-Wan stepped in and cut.
Vader blocked the attack easily. Obi-Wan attacked again, and again, Vader blocked each strike.
If the old man thought he could rattle him by attacking instead of defending, he was mistaken. Vader riposted, sped up his timing, and took the initiative, forcing the erstwhile Jedi to defend.
He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force.
Obi-Wan twirled and blocked a slash, then wove a defensive pattern with his blade. The Force was still with the old Jedi; he was able to anticipate Vader's strikes and block or parry them. But after a quick exchange, Vader felt the energy shift in his favor. "Your powers are weak, old man."
Vader knew that Obi-Wan was taunting him by using the Sith honorific, but he would not allow himself to be baited. Obi-Wan lunged again, attacking, but Vader was ready. Their sabers clashed, sparks spewed, the stink of ozone wafted over them, but Vader stood his ground. The blades slid along each other's length, then stopped, bound together in the magnetic handle guards, the men face-to-face.
Vader shoved, hard, and they broke the clash. Obi-Wan retreated a step.
Another exchange - four, five, six attacks and blocks - and Vader knew the old man was weakening. The Force might be strong in Obi-Wan, but the dark side was stronger in Vader. It let him anticipate his adversary's strikes and counter them almost before they began.
Obi-Wan knew it, too. He began a retreat, backing away, his lightsaber itself seeming weaker as he moved.
Vader backed Obi-Wan past an open blast door leading to the forward dock where the Rebel freighter was being held under guard. The old man was obviously tiring." - Death Star.
The passage you're referring to with Ben being a threat is this one I'm assuming?
But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.
Of course that's pretty par for the course in most lightsaber duels. Do something stupid and your superhuman precognitive opponent is going to capitalize on it and end you.
Vader heard someone call from the dock: "Ben?" It was a young man's voice. Still he could not risk a look in that direction. But Obi-Wan glanced away, quickly, then looked back at Vader. Then he did the last thing Vader could have possibly imagined -
He smiled.
It was an expression not the least worried; almost beatific, in fact. Then, still smiling, Obi-Wan lifted his lightsaber so that the tip pointed straight up at the ceiling.
And as the above indicates Ben chose to sacrifice his own life so that Luke wouldn't feel the need to come and aid him and escape instead. It doesn't mean he wasn't being beaten as the above clearly indicates, Vader acknowledging that a foolish move could be fatal on his part notwithstanding.
9. I'm sorry but I either did not see your response or do not remember it. If you could link me to the thread where you "disproved" this notion I'd much appreciate it.
10a) How is it a concession when I never asserted that Ben was as skilled or physically powerful in the first place? :/
The difference being Anakin had over a decade of training before his fight with Dooku. And you can't assert that Vader is less then Anakin when there are quotes that actively confirm his growth in power and the fact that he's grown in skill. Canon actively contradicts your claims meaning your wrong. And my comparison was Galen and Anakin who we can clearly see sports a superior growth in power.
Non canon endings have no bearing on continuity and are thus pointless to bring up in a debate especially when their validity is outright contradicted in regards to the canon events that occurred. At least from the perspective of a Marek who chose the Lightside over the Dark.
Except what you fail to understand is that it does exactly that. An character's ability is not based off some random on the internet saying "Lmao. They must be fodder and because a character performed a certain way against them they must be fodder too." A character's ability is based off their showings and other characters with established showings. It just so happens that every single character outside of a select few Galen faces in the game isn't an established character and can thus only be measured off their performance against Marek at certain points in the game and the feats they demonstrated in this fights. In Shaak's case decades have passed where her abilities have logically shifted. We don't know what form that shift would take and so we can only measure her capabilities as of TFU based off her performance which as most of us are aware was riddled with circumstances.
Why are my proofs any more faulty then yours? Yours were all either twisted with bias, without context, wrong or blatantly false. The ones I brought up were purposefully faulty to show you why assessing a character based off low showings is utterly stupid.
Rham Kota - Getting beaten by Boba Fett.
A feat for Boba and not something that is negative for Rahm.
Kazdan Paratus - nothing
Wrong.
Shaak Ti - Getting stomped and hospitalised by Grievous.
Without taking into account she'd been exhausted in battle beforehand.
Darth Desolus Simulation - Getting beaten by Padawans.
And Galen beat him as well. If I step on an ant and you do the same does that make us equally powerful combatants?
Maris Brood - Nothing.
Wrong.
Vader - Stalemating Old Ben Kenobi.
Blatantly false.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Please allow me to take lead on the numbering of points, it will make for much easier reading, as I can actually format this palaver with a semblance of aesthetes.1) What feats are we speaking of here? What domination? What matching? What distorted lens is the source material being viewed in where the occurring events don't materialise in anything other than nocturnal emissions? The last I heard from Syndicate, as some call him, the unbearable, was an indirect concession regarding the use of Dun Moch and a lack of confidence in his opponent that won Galen, in it's most literal sense, a short-lived victory over his former master. A premise that is described by the text itself. Other than that, he managed to resist a Force choke, which is nice, but so did Luke in ESB. As for matching Sidious, I think the word is being a little bit stretched, especially when it's being used to describe an incident involving a Force explosion where an unscathed Sidious lived and Galen died.
2) Ellimist raised a very good point today regarding this leetle scenario, and it's something I have brought up before when encountered with a sophistical case of prostrated comparisons. It happens far to often that one conflates an example of telekinesis in combat with something that happens very far away from a battle. There's a difference. There's no reason to think that Dooku would be actively producing a Force shield to prevent himself getting choked out. In this instance, he's as venerable to telekinetic strangulation as Admiral Ozzell was in the Empire Strikes Back. There's little reason to assume he would defend against the attack either, and in any case, rebutting a Force choke from the Emperor might need a longer window than just a couple of seconds, where the emperor drops him. Really, if Dooku was so easily overpowered by top drawer necromancers, than why didn't Yoda simply carry him away in a Force stretcher or pin him against a wall in await for backup. As we've seen before, It really isn't outside his character morals to dominate people with the Force- https://youtu.be/QnZaNNY_arU
3) Please clarify, because I don't trust any of your interpretations. For Dooku, we have various instances where a wavered concentration would be met with imminent defeat, yet he's able to pick apart one opponent with the Force while holding off the other with his lightsaber. Take Sora Bulq and Tholme for example, either of which could be considered a boss fight on their own for Galen - given the level of people that fight him - while Dooku simply makes a mockery of them.
4) I know for a fact, that the tie fighters Galen has pushed, aren't travelling anywhere close to lightspeed, they are in fact, traveling no faster than 1200 Kilometres Per Hour, may I enlighten you to why that is:
By now the Imperials on the ground were calling for reinforcements from above. [b]A trio of TIE-Fighters shrieked down through Kashyyk's atmosphere
, stiching the blackened permacrete with needles of fire. He laughed mirthlessly. They considered that a solution? With a well-timed nudge on the lead TIE-Fighter's port solar gather panel, he sent it tumbling into the permacrete, where it exploded instantly. The impack shook the ground beneath his feet and sent cracks spreading across its face.That gave him an idea. When the two remaining TIE-Fighters came around for another pass, he sent them both into the third and fifth moorings. The fourth took so much collateral damage that it fared almost as badly as its siblings. Only one mooring remained.
-- The Force Unleashed
As we can see above, the feat in question happens on the surface of Kashyyk, and I even took the methodological time to underline the word of importance. The tie fighter's have entered the atmosphere of the planet, which means the ships are enveloped in surrounding gasses that will cause the them to set ablaze when traveling past 30,000 KPH. As stated in the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, sublight drives are only engaged upon leaving a planet's atmosphere and in space combat. Well anyway, now that I've demonstrated why the Tie fighters in question can't simply Barry Allen zip around in places that aren't a vacuums, here's the less complex explanation. It is confirmed in both Canon and Legends sources, that Tie Fighters can travel no faster than 1200 kph in atmosphere, look it up or ask Zenwolf for more details.
4b) Why would you assume that space ships are traveling around at relativistic speeds when their sole purpose in this excerpt is to provide backup to a singly located Space station? You realise the impracticality, nay, the impossibility of the scenario here? The answer to me is obvious. Clearly thinking logically doesn't always take precedent when wanking our favourite character.
5) It is only implied by the comic, but if you're to fire up the Nintendo Wii, and I've mentioned this to you in arguments you haven't been bothered to read, Galen is unable to penetrate the Force shields of these masked stooges in both versions of the game. The Wii version states that their shields can't be penetrated with direct telekinesis - ergo - he has to use the environment to aid his cause, as the invisible shields only protect against other Force intrusions, not momentum. Which lines perfectly well with everything else depicting this little skirmish. Bottom line - fodder can challenge Galen.
6) Wrong again. Vader never reaches the types of accolade lavished upon Anakin Skywalker, as praised in various sources. These are both 3rd person and omniscient statements, while the only objections to this are Vader's own cognitive dissonance. A very weak basis for confirmation, as you so ineloquently state. He is a shadow of his former self; and no, that does not refer to potential, simple English is enough to invalidate that. It simply means he weaker than he was in the past. It means that the loss of living tissue and metal appendages make it harder for the Force to flow throughout his body, stifling his command of it. [/B]
1. The only attempted Dun Moch on Galen's part ended up backfiring. He dominated Vader after releasing his hatred as is stated in the novel.
"The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.
Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued." - The Force Unleashed.
Both the novel and comic make it clear. Sidious and Galen are matching each other for a time. The novel by outright stating Sidious is desperate and the comic by showing that Sidious is incapable of fully blocking the lightning as it illuminates his bones.
"The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations." - The Force Unleashed.
Spoiler:
As for the explosion Galen's intent is to cause a distraction to allow Juno and the Rebels to escape and in doing so he actively lowers his defenses and releases a burst of energy scaled back so that it will not overpower the Rogue Shadow's shields.
This can be seen as the explosion is about to wash over the Rogue Shadow and its passengers in the comic and Juno and Rahm proceed to have a brief conversation before even taking off meaning the explosion would have had to hit them unless it was moving at the speed of a turtle.
Here's the text stating Galen lowered his defenses.
"
"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses." - The Force Unleashed
Here's the scan showing the Rogue Shadow about to be overtaken by the explosion.
Spoiler:
2. Because Yoda is not as powerful as Sidious and would not to risk fatally injuring the Count if he thought he could capture him alive. Aside from that you have a fair point about Dooku choosing to actively NOT resist Sidious and I will mention that this little theory was first postulated by me a few months ago. As I said though his cruiser showing is not verifiable and thus his physical force feats can't be scaled up to Galen's level. Even if they were though that would have no bearing on Dooku's ability to compare to Galen in his prime ( when he faced Vader and Sidious on the Death Star ) only Galen as of Raxus Prime when he was still a Darksider and thus markedly weaker as we can see in his performance against Vader and even as you mentioned the non canon ending if we're describing any accuracy to it.
3. Bulq maybe but definitely not Tholme. And even Bulq pre Darkside conversion is iffy.
Galen is able to utilize force attacks midcombat as well and recover nearly immediately from deadly situations.
Here's the quote for Galen telekinetically triggering explosives.
"ehind him, triggered telekinetically, the downed AT-AT exploded, expending all its stored munitions in one blistering blast."
4. I never claimed the TIE's were moving as fast as say I did. I simply noted that the TIE's are sublight speed fighters.
4b) Maybe because I didn't? You tend to have this strange tendency to assume another's intent and then blow said assumption up to monumental proportions.
5. Quote? And even if that were the case it would only serve to make the defensive force applications of these Shadow Guards impressive.
6. Wrong again Ziggy.
Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.
-- Beware The Sith
Kenobi gauged the shrinking distance between the oncoming troops and himself, then turned a pitying gaze on Vader. “This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”
-- A New Hope
His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.
-- Return Of The Jedi
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Mark my words, I will re-oreder this cluster-**** you've presented. Also I'm disappointed with the answers for points 3,4,5 and 6. Did you simply run out of energy?
3 was you asking for a quote which I provided. 4 was me responding to your accusations with "You're assuming my intent and you were wrong." 5 is me asking you to confirm your claim and then explaining to you that even if it were true it would have no bearing on what a prime Galen is capable of or be a diminishment of his own abilities. 6 was me about to post the quotes I did below but I had to get to class so I responded about an 1-2 hours later with said quotes.
Apparently my efforts to encourage some sort of format, have been ignored. Clearly you're a lost case when it comes to structured essays, so don't be too upset upon discovering that I haven't ordered these posts by number, because as it appears, you still can't respond to them in the manner in which they're presented.
1. The only attempted Dun Moch on Galen's part ended up backfiring. He dominated Vader after releasing his hatred as is stated in the novel.
So you’ve decided to drop Vader’s disadvantage like a hot potato, probably because it doesn't suit you right now, fair, but when one is inconsistent with their premises it's much harder to conceal the end goal ; the fickle attempt to champion Whailen scoffing at Yoda from his pedestal. I personally agreed with the previous assertion, that near the climax of the fight, Vader was injected with a fresh dose of phycological lacerations, hindering his ability to thrash Galen as he had done previously. But a charitable observer can split the fight in three parts, the first is a fresh point, a no bars hold match where Vader had the slight advantage, which might be impressive for Galen if Old Ben hadn't replicated this feat later on in the continuity. The second, is where an attempt to undermine Vader was met with a boomerang, where Galen was easily at a disadvantage, suffering from an attempt to fan the flames of hatred that fuelled his former master's resolve. The third part was the turning point, and much like Luke in the Return of the Jedi, the inverse of Dun Moch proved the most effective weapon against a lord of self loathing. Unfortunately, Galen can not hope to win a phycological battle with Dooku, because the advantages he might have had agains Vader are simply absent. Dooku is righteously indignant, he does share the same insecurities or potential for redemption as his defective successor, and more to the point, Galen wouldn't know what buttons to press.
Both the novel and comic make it clear. Sidious and Galen are matching each other for a time. The novel by outright stating Sidious is desperate and the comic by showing that Sidious is incapable of fully blocking the lightning as it illuminates his bones.
There is no contending here. It's very simple. Galen and Palpatine were the focal point of a rather large force explosion. The cadence of which had Palpatine unmoved an inch from his place, scoffing at Galen's dead body in disappointment; he did not want to kill Galen and therefore is not bringing the level of power he might display against a genuine threat; Yoda or Mace for example. An accidental death is even less impressive, because rather than lethality being the intentional force behind Sidous' lightning, Galen simply cracked like a Jordan Almond against someone who wasn't event trying to kill him.
Because Yoda is not as powerful as Sidious and would not to risk fatally injuring the Count if he thought he could capture him alive.
Are you even reading these posts? Telekinesis isn't normally a fatal power. There are numerous ways in which Yoda could incapacitate Dooku without harming him at all, pinning him to a wall awaiting for backup as just an example. In any case, he's far less likely to be injured by a Force incantation, than a green flurry of motion carrying a weapon that can cut limbs with no friction.
Aside from that you have a fair point about Dooku choosing to actively NOT resist Sidious and I will mention that this little theory was first postulated by me a few months ago.
Concession accepted.
3. Bulq maybe but definitely not Tholme. And even Bulq pre Darkside conversion is iffy.
Another indirect concession, you admit Galen would have difficulty with Dooku's panel fodder. I disagree on the part of Tholme however. At least in the early stages of TFU, Tholme would be a very fitting stand-in for someone like Rham Kota, considering the latter gets slapped about by Boba Fett. I'm sure Tholme would do just fine in comparison with the other inadequate opponents Galen faces.
Here's the quote for Galen telekinetically triggering explosives."ehind him, triggered telekinetically, the downed AT-AT exploded, expending all its stored munitions in one blistering blast."
So he's simply exploding fuel reserves? I don't see why that's any better than Force choking a being with no natural defences. To put this in perspective, there is an initiate Jedi-test is based around the displacement of oxygen molecules in a bottle, i believe all Jedi learners have to pass this test before they can ascend the ranks. And with that in mind, what makes Galen so special by doing something on a less intricate scale? The impressiveness is immediately negated when you consider that AT AT's aren't exactly fast moving targets.
4. I never claimed the TIE's were moving as fast as say I did. I simply noted that the TIE's are sublight speed fighters.
Laughable. You certainly wanted to put forth the argument that Galen could manipulate relativistic objects because it serves the purpose of wanking your favourite character. There's no backtracking from this, If you didn't want to give the TIE fighters in question a misleading accolade, you would have refrained from doing so. And yes, the ships are sub-light, thanks to repulser drives that activate in a vacuum, but for the purposes of this discussion, they can only be traveling from 1-1200 KPH when Galen manipulated them.
5. Quote? And even if that were the case it would only serve to make the defensive force applications of these Shadow Guards impressive.
The Wii game states that the shields are impenetrable to direct telekinetic assaults, but venerable the momentum of physical objects. I don't know if it makes them impressive, but rather that they're present and that Galen can't breach them. In the case of characters who've established themselves as the top masters in history, I might give it a pass, but seen as Galen isn't part of that sampling group, he doesn't receive a complimentary get-out-of-jail-free card.
6. Wrong again Ziggy.
Compelling.
__________________
The passage you're referring to with Ben being a threat is this one I'm assuming? Of course that's pretty par for the course in most lightsaber duels. Do something stupid and your superhuman precognitive opponent is going to capitalize on it and end you.
What it means, Syndicate, is that a the rusty old Ataru offence of Ben Kenobi, is Vader's utmost limits in terms of what he can handle, and anything in addition to that would have seen him dead and buried. And no, this isn't par for the course lightsaber fights, that would be to deny a numerous list of stomps that happen frequently within the mythos. That passage is enough to mark Ben as a near equal to Vader in the lightsaber department, giving him some parity to Galen, and then there's the quote explaining why Vader only became truly formidable after finding out about his son's existence.
9. I'm sorry but I either did not see your response or do not remember it. If you could link me to the thread where you "disproved" this notion I'd much appreciate it.
It is all in a post you have yet to address
10a) How is it a concession when I never asserted that Ben was as skilled or physically powerful in the first place?
Because when you concede to this point you concede to many others as well. It has a ripple effect. In this case, the proficiency of Ben Kenobi is the only accurate measuring stick to gauge how well ANH Vader competes with people from the Halcyon days of the republic, by your admission here, the answer is not very well. Unless, I don't know, you want to scale off people like Sha Koon?
Non canon endings have no bearing on continuity and are thus pointless to bring up in a debate especially when their validity is outright contradicted in regards to the canon events that occurred. At least from the perspective of a Marek who chose the Lightside over the Dark.
It has plenty of baring to how the fight would unfold. Just because it didn't exist in the universal events as they happened, doesn't mean it's not solid evidence. Currently there's a gap in the data, and there exists no real competition between the characters of Sidious and Galen, the alternate ending of The Force Unleashed fills that gap nicely.
Except what you fail to understand is that it does exactly that. An character's ability is not based off some random on the internet saying "Lmao. They must be fodder and because a character performed a certain way against them they must be fodder too." A character's ability is based off their showings and other characters with established showings.
Umm, what? First of all, an character. Second of all, what?
It just so happens that every single character outside of a select few Galen faces in the game isn't an established character
Correction, t's established that they're not particularly special.
at certain points in the game and the feats they demonstrated in this fights. In Shaak's case decades have passed where her abilities have logically shifted. We don't know what form that shift would take and so we can only measure her capabilities as of TFU based off her performance which as most of us are aware was riddled with circumstances.
No, that's not things should be measured from a scientific perspective. Circular logic is always considered fallic. The principles behind statistical uncertainty, in this case, when assessing Shaak Ti's skills and performances, state that we have to take into regard all her showings prior to TFU. From there we have as four things that stand out. She got stomped by Grievous, unlike Kiadi Mundi who outperformed her in every manner of the word. She had difficulty against a single magnaguard, until exploiting a flaw in their programming flaws. She became exhausted after a bout with several magnaguards, and got godstomped by Grievous, who was using one-lightsaber and carrying Palpatine in the other arm at the same time. Then in Revenge of the Sith, Mace Windu passes her up for better combatants in the Pulp Fiction renegade to stop the chancellor. Her only renown within the context of TFU, is that she was a Council Master, compared to Galen's previous opponents, who as Vader so eloquently put it, were an old man and an outcast. Fitting.
Why are my proofs any more faulty then yours? Yours were all either twisted with bias, without context, wrong or blatantly false.
My proofs are centred around an objective look at the everything the characters in question have accomplished. Yours were outliers. Let's take Dooku for example, he's rather well known for being the second best swordsman in the order, his hit list can be commended for it's credibility. He lives in an age where being the best is measured among thousands of individuals who could knock down his pedestal. For Galen, that number is in the double digits. He's left to fend off people who weren't particularly famous in the late days of the republic, if at all, and to top that of, demonstrate their combative impotency on various occasions- Rham Kota getting slapped by Boba Fett etc.
The ones I brought up were purposefully faulty
And mine weren't, so concession accepted. And now to address your whining with the manner it begs. Roll call.
Rham Kota - Getting beaten by Boba Fett.A feat for Boba and not something that is negative for Rahm.
Lol
Kazdan Paratus - nothingWrong.
Right
Shaak Ti - Getting stomped and hospitalised by Grievous.Without taking into account she'd been exhausted in battle beforehand.
Lol
Darth Desolus Simulation - Getting beaten by Padawans.And Galen beat him as well. If I step on an ant and you do the same does that make us equally powerful combatants?
Lol
Maris Brood - Nothing.Wrong.
Right
Vader - Stalemating Old Ben Kenobi.Blatantly false.
Blatantly true.