Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Would you like to prove that she was talking about her knighthood? When does she state this?Because Satele is nearly 60 by the time the Cold War ends. She was only 48 when she became Grand Master.
Hang on this seems to be a gigantic plot hole based on her birthdate of 3699 BBY. Satele is supposed to be 46 at the time of the Sacking of Coruscant... 😕
Anyway there's no evidence stating she was in her prime during the Battle of Alderaan. I would think she'd be in her prime around the time she became Grand Master.
Its in one of the frankly dozens of times you ask her to come help you out on a mission and she says "I'm no longer the warrior I used to be in my youth" or something similar.
Satale went on a pilgrimage after the Sacking of Coruscant and the war and rediscovered Tython, which was what got her promoted to Master. Later she was again promoted to Grand Master, but I'm not sure about a timeline. The point is, she's still a Knight all the way through the war.
I would also assume she'd be at her peak as the Grand Master, but we have no knowledge of her abilities at that time, so we really only have what she demonstrated up to, say, the Hope trailer.
Mizukage_Yoda
Uhh what's your point? Exaggerated or no it is canon. We accept the ridiculous feats of characters in the Old Republic era like Nihlius ripping his fleet from orbit. But when it comes to things like the PT characters having formidable chops its downplay downplay downplay.
👆
It's an enduring double standard. We should either count them all or dismiss them all. No cherrypicking.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, and its not like anyone ever downplays feats from the Old Republic era. :IWe all hype the feats of the person we're trumping while downplaying those of the opposition. Its a bias we all share.
Actually, that's complete and total bullshit.
If I'm understanding MK's beef with SWL correctly, MK is calling SWL on dismissing Anakin's microseries feats wholesale.
The whole "lol no those never happened they dont count!" arguments rest solely at the feet of the SWTOR camp and the SWTOR camp alone.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It contradicts with G-canon ground realities. However, you have not acknowledged this contradiction thus far. You cannot expect to settle this debate without acknowledging all kinds of ground realities attached with it.
No it doesn't settle G-canon ground realities if G-canon sources acknowledge it as the official pre-cursor to Episode III.
Also, you have not revealed much about the source featuring this feat. Any link?
Nope found it in another thread. It's a part of the CWs cartoons that went along with the TV show.
If we are to factor-in the feat you cited then we have to adjust it within the holistic picture of capabilities of Anakin in the light of his depiction in all canon sources thus far; while Anakin undoubtedly packed immense raw power, he hadn't managed to harness it very effectively during combat situations prior to his defeat on Mustafar (At least, not on the level of him being able to influence inanimate objects with his Force abilities). Anakin apparently addressed this shortcoming during his reign as cybernetic Darth Vader; this might be the reason that why cybernetic Darth Vader was apparently very effective in combat situations but still not unstoppable as proved by young Luke. I cannot think of a better explanation, otherwise, Anakin would have easily overwhelmed Obi-Wan with his sheer Force abilities alone.
You're wrong. Anakin is at the height of his power in ROTS as per George Lucas.
Also your double standard here is hilarious. By your own bullshit about ground realities (something that you made up) Vader doesn't have superior TK to Anakin because in the movies he's never shown to move anything larger than a large pot.
I am not devaluing any source material but have rather pointed out a contradiction in them regarding depiction of strength of a character in question here. Fact is that G-canon ground realities take precedence over C-canon ground realities of any G-canon character in question; you need to acknowledge this fact.
Wrong again. Plot Induced Stupidity as well as Character Induced Stupidity is the source of pretty much all of this. It's a writing trope where characters do not use their full power all the time. For example, in AOTCs Yoda should have been able to pull Dooku's shuttle back and save Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time. But he didn't.
Also, it is common practice among fans of Star Wars mythos to go out of their way to argue in favor of their favorites in debates. This is why these debates are never ending. So do not single me out from such fans because you fall in the same boat. In fact, I have minimized my participation in these debates with passage of time, but if I have started a debate, I would like to end it as well.
No I really don't. I hate ROTS Anakin and pretty much any incarnation of Skywalker played by Hayden Christensen. As a character Satele on the other hand is one of my favorites. Also you just just admitted to going out of your way to argue in favor of characters you like more. This completely devalues your argument to a simple.
"nuh-uh I like Satele more so she wins.
Feats wise, Galen wastes Vader at least. This is why relying upon random examples of feats is not the best way to make a convincing case about a character in versus debates; focus on the holistic picture is vital to this end. You are relying upon a random feat of Anakin (whose ground realities are not much clear) to make a case for this character but this tactic isn't going to help your cause. Try to learn from this debate at least.
No feats wise Galen doesn't waste Vader because Vader has the feat of being able to keep up with him at least somewhat. It's called powerscaling sweetheart. Try and use it more often.
Capabilities wise, he seems to be on Dooku level. In fact, he seems to be a better swordsman but equivalent of Dooku in Force abilities aspect.
You think Galen is a superior swordsman to Dooku?
The Chosen One label helps your case somehow? Labels do not prove much otherwise Sith'ari would be unmatched Sith in history. I am more interested in evaluating Anakin on holistic level rather then relying upon some random feats to make a case.
He has
Malgus is evidently more of a brute then even Anakin. Just go through the powers and abilities section here which is nicely done: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Malgus
Eta-class shuttle fits in "several tons" weight range. Malgus is canonically known to ragdoll inanimate objects in this weight range. You fail.
My point is to not to mistake Sateke lacking in raw power aspect in place of Dooku. You cannot expect Anakin to overwhelm Satele in the same way as he did to Dooku.
Why? He's faster and stronger than Malgus.
The feats which you describe are of entirely different nature then that of Satele's; her feat is about sheer potency (destructive potential) while the examples which you gave are about influencing the movements of large inanimate objects; essentially Apples and Oranges comparison.
It's TK. Not apples and oranges. If Skywaker can move an object weighing in at several hundred tons, he can apply that power to a force push.
Also, whatever that rocky formation is, it is BIG, but camera angles in the cinematic trailer do not give viewers a proper glimpse of its sheer size. One source describes Malgus's situation as being found within a "mountain of rubble" after this event. To utterly shatter a BIG rocky formation like that requires "building shattering" power. The feat is easily among the best examples of display of raw power.
Yes a mountain of rubble is a commonly used hyperbole. No it isn't.
I like the humor in this part. 😂Satele made it possible for the Jedi Order to bounce back from the major setbacks it suffered during the war against the Sith Empire and arguably shaped it in to its most effective form in history which led to the fall of Sith Emperor himself.
So?
Orgus Din had considerable Force abilities nonetheless; he collapsed a large cave with a gesture from a single hand at one point on Tython. In addition, Din was the most combat experienced member of the Jedi Order so he didn't suck in martial aspects of combat either. He was good enough to be accepted for mentoring HoT.
He got curbstomped by Angral, lost to that dude on Tython who the HoT after quickly defeated.
Also, add HoT, Revan, Bersen'thor and Syo to the list of powerhouses of this era. The Jedi on this time were generally impressive. Some notable names are Aryn, Bengal, Usma, Darach and Zallow. Their might be more whom I do not recall at the moment.
You need to read this:"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.
The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.
The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"
Get my stance of reasoning now?
Yes. I get it. I'm telling you its bullshit. Characters feats do not directly conflict with the movies, and so they are still canon. The next time you argue a point by dismissing a canon source I'll consider it a concession by you.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]You can't dismiss Orgus Din losing to Darth Angral on the grounds that Angral wasn't a Dark Council member. Angral was offered a position on the Dark Council but turned it down in disgust over the Treaty of Coruscant, so he is on that level.
Angral was made Darth Baras' ***** during Threat of Peace: Act I. Where is it stated Angral turned down the position?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, that's complete and total bullshit.If I'm understanding MK's beef with SWL correctly, MK is calling SWL on dismissing Anakin's microseries feats wholesale.
The whole "lol no those never happened they dont count!" arguments rest solely at the feet of the SWTOR camp and the SWTOR camp alone.
You argued the same thing in regards to Nihilus and Swtor-era depictions being exaggerated to, bro.
Whoops, I didn't mean to post this. Double Post by accident. >_<
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Angral was made Darth Baras' ***** during Threat of Peace: Act I. Where is it stated Angral turned down the position?
Darth Angral was furious to see his victory dissolve into a protracted and unresolved cold war. Although his success on Coruscant opened a path to the Empire's fabled Dark Council, Angral abandoned Sith politics to pursue a private agenda. He spent years after the war consolidating a significant power base.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You argued the same thing in regards to Nihilus and Swtor-era depictions being exaggerated to, bro.
Only when my opponent was wanting to write non-SWTOR-era stuff off wholesale. Like I said, we accept it all or write it all off, no cherrypicking simply because the SWTOR camp can't win an argument otherwise.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only when my opponent was wanting to write non-SWTOR-era stuff off wholesale. Like I said, we accept it all or write it all off, no cherrypicking simply because the SWTOR camp can't win an argument otherwise.
Pretty much my opinion as well. If you want to debate EU things then you have to debate the entire EU. If you want to debate just the movies then its just the movies. Why? Because actors have physical limitations that digital Satele and Malgus do not have.
As for the downplaying of Nihilus. Well the great Drew has already done that for us once he decided the Exile was Revan's lackey and that the Sith Triumvirate were decidedly below even a Dark Council Member. Meanwhile Vitiate who is essentially a downgraded Nihilus who can talk is considered>>>the Exile.
I personally believe Nihilus would take anyone to the curb until a defense is shown for his ability.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only when my opponent was wanting to write non-SWTOR-era stuff off wholesale. Like I said, we accept it all or write it all off, no cherrypicking simply because the SWTOR camp can't win an argument otherwise.
My recollection is of you opining that artistic differences should be examined and exaggerations in regards to the CWC, TFU and Swtor abilities should be downplayed in consideration compared to more standard depictions.
This isn't what I meant though, which is that swtor-era feats get downplayed just as much as movie-era feats. And everyone brings up the clone wars media as being exaggerated from time to time. It isn't just the swtor supporters doing it, Master Han mentioned it just a week ago.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Whoops, I didn't mean to post this. Double Post by accident. >_<Darth Angral was furious to see his victory dissolve into a protracted and unresolved cold war. Although his success on Coruscant opened a path to the Empire's fabled Dark Council, Angral abandoned Sith politics to pursue a private agenda. He spent years after the war consolidating a significant power base.
Cool. However power wise Darth Baras handled him with low difficulty. Now you could make the argument that Baras was on the high end of the Council spectrum, but this was also probably a decade from when we'd next see Baras in action. And we know Baras accumulated mucho power in between.
Also if the SWTOR camp wants victories perhaps they should stop pitting them against individuals who are at the top of chain in the Order's 50,000 year history.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Cool. However power wise Darth Baras handled him with low difficulty. Now you could make the argument that Baras was on the high end of the Council spectrum, but this was also probably a decade from when we'd next see Baras in action. And we know Baras accumulated mucho power in between.Also if the SWTOR camp wants victories perhaps they should stop pitting them against individuals who are at the top of chain in the Order's 50,000 year history.
And so did Angral. The man who beat Din wasn't the same one who lost to Baras. Angral is still one of the most powerful Sith in the Order to be offered a place on the Council.
So we should only pit them against..... Darth Bane and Lukes-era? The Clone Wars era is the biggest and most explored. Naturally they're in a lot of threads.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And so did Angral. The man who beat Din wasn't the same one who lost to Baras. Angral is still one of the most powerful Sith in the Order to be offered a place on the Council.So we should only pit them against..... Darth Bane and Lukes-era? The Clone Wars era is the biggest and most explored. Naturally they're in a lot of threads.
Except according to my recollection Angral beat Din during the Sacking of Coruscant. And honestly Orgus Din has shown me nothing to suggest he can hold a candle to the top tiers of the mythos.
No. You should pit them against people in their tier. Malgus wasn't even in his prime when he fought Satele. So if that's her at peak power that's pretty pathetic for the Grand Master to have grown to be vastly inferior to her greatest rival.
PT top tiers have been stated to be in the golden age of the Jedi. Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Palpatine, and yes, Skywalker are the most powerful combatants to live up until that point.
Now you could make the argument that Malgus at the time of his death could defeat Skywalker, I'd disagree, but you could make the argument. Not prime Malgus isn't beating Anakin though. So pitting Satele against essentially a stronger faster Malgus, won't end well for Satele.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It wasn't stomp or pwnage. Also, this doesn't proves that Zonakin can achieve similar result against all other powerful adversaries.
He's consistently stalemated Dooku in TCW. Dooku is one of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in History. Much more powerful than Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
CIP: Anakin failed to overwhelm Obi-Wan (And no! Anakin wasn't confused during this duel). This example proves that effectiveness of characters may vary in different situations.
Your right about characters performing at different levels in different situations. But like I pointed out Skywalker has performed consistently well against Dooku.
Whilst Kenobi has always been useless against the Count. Skywalker has also consistently performed better than Kenobi against other opponents like Ventress and Durge.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]Duel on MustafarVader releases Padme from his telekinetic deathgrip to engage Obi-Wan in a fierce duel. The combatants are so focused on each other's movements that neither notices the intrepid R2-D2 hauling Padme's unconscious form back to her starship.
The battle takes Vader and Obi-Wan through the main collection plant of the old lava mine, across platforms that stretch over riverbeds of molten lava. As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way to defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases the emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi.
Source: Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide
[/B]
I fail to see how any of this proves Skywalker was in peak condition when Kenobi defeated him.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except according to my recollection Angral beat Din during the Sacking of Coruscant. And honestly Orgus Din has shown me nothing to suggest he can hold a candle to the top tiers of the mythos.No. You should pit them against people in their tier. Malgus wasn't even in his prime when he fought Satele. So if that's her at peak power that's pretty pathetic for the Grand Master to have grown to be vastly inferior to her greatest rival.
PT top tiers have been stated to be in the golden age of the Jedi. Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Palpatine, and yes, Skywalker are the most powerful combatants to live up until that point.
Now you could make the argument that Malgus at the time of his death could defeat Skywalker, I'd disagree, but you could make the argument. Not prime Malgus isn't beating Anakin though. So pitting Satele against essentially a stronger faster Malgus, won't end well for Satele.
At which point he was still one of the most powerful Sith in the Empire. Your whole point is that Din is one of their best Jedi and sucks so the rest of them must suck. To support this you brought up that despite being one of the Jedi's best, he still lost to Angral who isn't even a Dark Council member. To which I corrected to that he's only not a Council member because of choice, not weakness. So your point is wrong and built off of a falsehood.
Malgus at the time was still capable of overwhelming Jedi able to collapse two buildings made of transparisteel and duracrete. That Satale overwhelmed him doesn't make her look pathetic, nor does the fact that Malgus outstripped her. It only makes Malgus look like the beast that he is.
That's a rather... ambitious view of things. Yes, tell me how the PT Jedi beat everyone ever, regardless of ability because of a blanket statement of Lucas' that has no regards for individual skills. Thats totally a valid argument that will convince me. Skywalker truly is above every combatant not in the PT-era because of it. That is true.
Sidious certainly had a high opinion of Malgus. According to him Malgus' 'battlefield feats have never been equaled.' I think you're wrong. I think Malgus would beat the shit out of Skywalker.