Perhaps in his prime, but Anakin's potential surpassed The Father (according to the official website, Anakin has the potential to be the strongest Force user in all of galactic history). This makes sense, given that The Father sought out Anakin as his intended replacement.
He did. But then this dark side Mortis Anakin Skywalker doesn't exist in canon.
Originally posted by Master Han
Wait...if the Father > anyone (including Abeloth), and Abeloth = 12x Luke, and Anakin = 2x Palpatine, and Anakin > The Father...Palpatine >= 6x Luke? 😕
You're seeking consistency in a franchise depleted of it. I try not to cling to exact percentages for just that reason and I'd rather pretend Abeloth's 12x Force strength quote never even existed.
But we know The Father > everyone (Leland Chee) and Anakin had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever, which means at full potential, he'd surpass The Father, which makes sense given that he may have the power at such a time to flat-out crush Yoda and Sidious together.
Anakin > [Luke? &] The Father > The Son/Daughter [& Luke] > [Luke?] > Palpatine > Vader, Dooku > Maul >>>> Bane
Originally posted by Master Han
I've skimmed over said encyclopedia. It's clearly written in the restricted perspective of the time period and makes no reference to events beyond TOR (to my knowledge). It's also obviously contextual, since Abeloth and countless other entities are undoubtedly above him.
Originally posted by Master Han
So, the Sith Emperor is the most powerful (within the relative timeframe of that era's galactic happenings) Force user up to his time...Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord at least up to his own time. And some of said latter assertions include information beyond the OT era.
Originally posted by Master Han
Canon evidence is canon evidence, and cannot be dismissed by fan-made policies or arbitrary declarations.
I can point out loopholes in sources which declare Sidious as most powerful. It would be wise of you to let go of this kind of reasoning to favor Sidious.
REPEAT: Apart from the hype factor, Vitiate is apparently noticeably more powerful and capable then Sidious (G-canon) on the basis of his capabilities, feats and affirmed superiority over a huge LIST which includes some individuals with mind-boggling capabilities of their own.
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The best you have is to argue in favor of Sidious (DE) to be a match for Vitiate.
Originally posted by Master Han
I'm just going to ignore your arbitrary restriction of my range of evidence to G-canon, ironic enough given that Vitiate doesn't even exist under that level.
Originally posted by Master Han
Beyond Palpatine's vastly superior bladework and tactical acumen,
he has demonstrated the ability to cloud the minds of the entire Jedi Order (actually in G canon),
The Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However, the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.
Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial Space vanished without a trace, but a few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear that the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him. (SWTORE, Page 88)
Also, ever heard about Children of the Emperor?
Fooling the entire Jedi Order was no big deal for Vitiate. In fact, First Son also possessed this capability.
Learn more from this sources:
http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/children-of-the-emperor-consular/275/
http://swtor.gamepedia.com/Codex/The_First_Son
Originally posted by Master Han
remove the memories of an event from the entire galaxy,
Originally posted by Master Han
knock the Force itself out of balance with his mere presence,
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)
Originally posted by Master Han
and drain energies from entire planetary populations.
However, Vitiate have set the bar too high in this case. He siphoned energies from beings from 3 distant planets simultaneously.
Originally posted by Master Han
Um, what? The Force manifests itself in its ability to manipulate physical events, such as telekinesis and foresight, but this hardly puts sorcery as something intrinsically separate from regular Force abilities to any combatively meaningful degree.For example, Plagueis in his novel realizes that, contrary to previous belief, one does not need a natural affinity with sith magic beyond Force sensitivity to master it; he himself manages to learn it through sheer force of will, despite having no inborn ability in that area.
The physical dimension:
The Force is directly linked with all life-forms through tiny organisms called Midichlorians which exist in all life-forms symbiotically since birth. With high Midichlorian count, a life-form is capable of sensing and using The Force in natural ways. This eventually led to birth of Jedi philosophy.
Metaphysical dimension:
The Force is packed with lot of mysteries and untapped potential. The Jedi always have been restrictive in their access to mysteries of The Force because they follow its will and act within predefined boundaries of their philosophies. The dark side practitioners (including the Sith), in contrast, learned about unnatural aspects of The Force. They began to tap into these unnatural aspects through the field of Sith Sorcery. Their is no Jedi alternative to this field as far as I am aware.
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While the Jedi have managed to blur the lines between natural and unnatural dimensions of The Force with some talents they acquired or possibly learned from exposure to knowledge of dark side practitioners, they are still considerably behind the dark side practitioners (including the Sith) in these aspects. By tapping into the uncharted depths of the unnatural aspects of The Force, the dark side practitioners have been able to unlock powers that were beyond the scope of understanding of the Jedi. Such powers have been seldom documented and explained by their wielders.
This development was not uncommon among Sith:
If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface. (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)
This novel actually clarifies that some individuals have been born with innate affinity with the dark side of the Force. These individuals are responsible for inventing the field of Sith Sorcery; with sheer force of their will, these individuals may have discovered ways to influence and use The Force in manner which is not possible in natural ways. Plagueis eventually realized that he was also blessed with this kind of talent and that it was not necessary for him to acquire this capability from ancient teachings.
Sith Sorcery held great promise for dark side practitioners and therefore it became a popular subject to delve in to. Within Sith training systems, Sith Sorcery is a specialized branch of the dark arts under Sith Inquisitor curriculum. It is possible that Sith Sorcerers are responsible for creating the popular applications of Sith lightning and Life-energy siphoning abilities. However, Sith Sorcery is a vast field with no specific limitations; it is a pathway to unlock powers of such a nature against which no form of conventional countermeasure works.
Also, this assertion: "but this hardly puts sorcery as something intrinsically separate from regular Force abilities to any combatively meaningful degree." is utterly wrong.
Vitiate and Zannah are known to unleash powers of such nature against which conventional countermeasures do not work.
Originally posted by Master Han
Why do you assume Vitiate has access to more in the "grand scheme of things"?
In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 161)
But Vitiate didn't share much of his knowledge with others; he only tutored one apprentice in his span of existence but she became distraught with her master's plans and rebelled, but was assassinated. In-fact, in a source (The Journal of Master Gnost-Dural), this famed Jedi historian acknowledged that Vitiate is the most mysterious individual among the dark side practitioners and little is known about his capabilities even to the Sith due to his highly secretive nature.
Some insight:-
A DISTANT EMPEROR
The Sith Empire's dragged on for centuries. While the military, navy, and Sith grew strong, the Emperor amassed unfathomable power. and plotted a vengeful war against the Republic. He ruled from the privacy of his chambers in the Citadel, his life extended to virtual immortality by Sith Sorcery.
For generations, the Emperor would remain withdrawn from society. When he finally appeared, the Emperor spoke only to the Dark Council, reducing the most powerful Sith in the Empire to trembling sycophants in his presence. Though the Emperor's enigmatic secrecy only increased his influence over his subjects, a few would attempt defiance. And as the Emperor's periods of absence increased, so too did the boldness of his Dark Council. (SWTORE, Page 157)
Originally posted by Master Han
Records had been lost since Vitiate's time; but new records have doubtlessly been created since, and in a technological, space age society, the rate of the latter would certainly outstrip the latter's. And whereas Vitiate largely had knowledge only from whatever survived from the older sith empire, Yoda had the entire, mostly unbroken line of the Jedi Order, and data from various sith empires, including from sith orders after Vitiate's time.
The Sith attack on Coruscant and obliteration of the centuries-old Jedi Temple wiped out millennia of acquired knowledge. (SWTORE, Page 89)
Their are other notable examples.
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The history of Sith records is even more disturbing; an enormous treasure-trove of ancient Sith records was lost during the destruction of Malachor V. Similarly, the secretive nature of Vitiate and eventual destruction of his reconstituted Sith Empire didn't help the situation either and by the time of rise of Brotherhood of Darkness, Sith records had greatly diminished even in Korriban. The chance discovery of Revan's holocron led to recovery of some (vital) lost information but Gravid dashed its survival:
Crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth
Gravid, and many of the most important elements of Sith training since had been passed from Masters to apprentices in sessions that had been left unrecorded. (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)
Sidious made some effort in recovering some lost information by exploring the galaxy but records accumulated by him are incomplete as well. In-fact, so much of the vital information about dark side practices have been lost in history that Krayt also experienced immense difficulties in re-acquiring some of the lost information but he couldn't uncover much either.
Originally posted by Master Han
Evidence...?
Originally posted by Master Han
OK, please state specifically which techniques Vitiate would employ against Yoda.
Originally posted by Master Han
With prep time, and off-screen. We have no idea how he did it, or whether he could replicate it in a fair fight.
Originally posted by Master Han
No, Palpatine by RotS has already upset the balance of the Force and clouded the entire Jedi Order.
Originally posted by Master Han
And if Vitiate really has insta-win Force techniques he can use on the fly, explain why he uses none against Revan's strike team.
Just like Abeloth didn't kill Luke, Ben and Vestara due to Plot Device, similarly Vitiate didn't use his mysterious capabilities commonly during combat situations due to Plot Device.
However, in debates, we need to look at things from neutral perspective and this changes the game.
http://i.imgur.com/zcHdtcf.jpg
Seems like he's draining even while Vader was alive
Originally posted by pencilcrayon
http://i.imgur.com/zcHdtcf.jpg
Seems like he's draining even while Vader was alive
Seems like Sidious was close to his DE power status during OT period.
As Advent exhaustively argued years ago, all that's ever directly said is that Luke has the power to surpass Sidious.
I'd personally rather not confer upon him his father's potential, given that Anakin is the center of a cosmic prophecy and the miraculous circumstances of his birth.
Luke is extraordinary, but I don't think he's quite as lustrous with respect to potential.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
As Advent exhaustively argued years ago, all that's ever directly said is that Luke has the power to surpass Sidious.I'd personally rather not confer upon him his father's potential, given that Anakin is the center of a cosmic prophecy and the miraculous circumstances of his birth.
Luke is extraordinary, but I don't think he's quite as lustrous with respect to potential.
I think Luke has Galen Marek esq potential. Which kind of makes me wonder why Galen was so powerful. Perahps it was the Force trying to balance itself with the Chosen One further unbalancing itself?
