Who can stop Dark Side Mortis Anakin?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
SWTORE represents The Old Republic timeline of the history but the authors know that Abeloth and The Ones are also ancient beings and they still promoted Vitiate in the aforementioned fashion.

And? Leland Chee has listed The Father as the most powerful being in Star Wars.

And yes, we know that you have the fancies for the (evil, genocidal) Sith Emperor, but insinuating that he is above Celestial-level beings in power...

That's just a new level of wank.

I can point out loopholes in sources which declare Sidious as most powerful. It would be wise of you to let go of this kind of reasoning to favor Sidious.

I'll call your bluff, then. What loopholes?

REPEAT: Apart from the hype factor, Vitiate is apparently noticeably more powerful and capable then Sidious (G-canon) on the basis of his capabilities, feats and affirmed superiority over a huge LIST which includes some individuals with mind-boggling capabilities of their own.

No, he's not. The Sith Emperor is above Palpatine. He was put on his ass by a Revan, despite being amped at the heart of a DS nexus.

The best you have is to argue in favor of Sidious (DE) to be a match for Vitiate.

DE Sidious is vastly more powerful than Vitiate ever has been. His Force storms are the most destructive manifestations of the Force yet seen in the mythos.

See above! I am not interested in participating in the debate about "strongest declarations" in the first place. It does not yields positive results.

Too bad for you that canon cannot be dismissed by your whim.

Read this:

The Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However, the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.

Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial Space vanished without a trace, but a few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear that the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him. (SWTORE, Page 88)

OK...what does this prove? Are you trying to market the Encyclopedia's (not) brilliant prose?

Also, ever heard about Children of the Emperor?

Fooling the entire Jedi Order was no big deal for Vitiate. In fact, First Son also possessed this capability.

Learn more from this sources:

http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/children-of-the-emperor-consular/275/

http://swtor.gamepedia.com/Codex/The_First_Son

Darth Sidious literally clouded the light side of the Force itself. 😉

He did that to a segment of populace of Coruscant.

Since there are things called "communications" devices in the Star Wars universe, that would be a highly conservative declaration.

Wrong!

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)

I don't really understand your mysterious method of posting quotes that have nothing to do with your stance whatsoever. I've read the book; the two actually did knock the Force out of balance...and your quote does nothing to prove otherwise.

Notice that they did so not through the use of sith alchemy, and not through the siphoning of energy sources, but rather through their own sheer power.

Sidious and Plagueis rank among the most powerful Force users in the mythos. And Palpatine hasn't even peaked yet.

This feat is exclusive to DE incarnation of Sidious only, if I recall correctly.

Covered by another.

However, Vitiate have set the bar too high in this case. He siphoned energies from beings from 3 distant planets simultaneously.

To the extent that Palpatine turned an entire populated planet into a twisted manifestation of the dark side?

Sidious's very death created a DS Force nexus.

The Force is a mysterious energy field which have both physical and metaphysical dimensions.

The physical dimension:

The Force is directly linked with all life-forms through tiny organisms called Midichlorians which exist in all life-forms symbiotically since birth. With high Midichlorian count, a life-form is capable of sensing and using The Force in natural ways. This eventually led to birth of Jedi philosophy.

Metaphysical dimension:

The Force is packed with lot of mysteries and untapped potential. The Jedi always have been restrictive in their access to mysteries of The Force because they follow its will and act within predefined boundaries of their philosophies. The dark side practitioners (including the Sith), in contrast, learned about unnatural aspects of The Force. They began to tap into these unnatural aspects through the field of Sith Sorcery. Their is no Jedi alternative to this field as far as I am aware.

---

While the Jedi have managed to blur the lines between natural and unnatural dimensions of The Force with some talents they acquired or possibly learned from exposure to knowledge of dark side practitioners, they are still considerably behind the dark side practitioners (including the Sith) in these aspects. By tapping into the uncharted depths of the unnatural aspects of The Force, the dark side practitioners have been able to unlock powers that were beyond the scope of understanding of the Jedi. Such powers have been seldom documented and explained by their wielders.

This development was not uncommon among Sith:

If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface. (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)

I'm assuming that you're taking the information beyond your italics from canon sources, rather than your own fandom.

This novel actually clarifies that some individuals have been born with innate affinity with the dark side of the Force. These individuals are responsible for inventing the field of Sith Sorcery; with sheer force of their will, these individuals may have discovered ways to influence and use The Force in manner which is not possible in natural ways. Plagueis eventually realized that he was also blessed with this kind of talent and that it was not necessary for him to acquire this capability from ancient teachings.

No, Plagueis realized that, even though he wasn't blessed with this kind of talent, he could still do it anyway.

Sith Sorcery held great promise for dark side practitioners and therefore it became a popular subject to delve in to. Within Sith training systems, Sith Sorcery is a specialized branch of the dark arts under Sith Inquisitor curriculum. It is possible that Sith Sorcerers are responsible for creating the popular applications of Sith lightning and Life-energy siphoning abilities. However, Sith Sorcery is a vast field with no specific limitations; it is a pathway to unlock powers of such a nature against which no form of conventional countermeasure works.

Also, this assertion: "but this hardly puts sorcery as something intrinsically separate from regular Force abilities to any combatively meaningful degree." is utterly wrong.

Vitiate and Zannah are known to unleash powers of such nature against which conventional countermeasures do not work.

Ignoring the fact that your hard evidence for sith sorcery's being impossible to defend against with "conventional countermeasures" is precisely zero beyond massive leaps in logic from pseudo-philosophical ramblings, Yoda and Palpatine are both intimately familiar with sith sorcery. Next.

Read this:

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 161)

More useless quotes. "sinister" and "uncharted" really don't impress me.

But Vitiate didn't share much of his knowledge with others; he only tutored one apprentice in his span of existence but she became distraught with her master's plans and rebelled, but was assassinated. In-fact, in a source (The Journal of Master Gnost-Dural), this famed Jedi historian acknowledged that Vitiate is the most mysterious individual among the dark side practitioners and little is known about his capabilities even to the Sith due to his highly secretive nature.
<snip>

For all his secretive nature, the Emperor has nothing on Yoda and Palpatine, who hold over Vitiate the subtle advantage of having lived after his time, and therefore his knowing literally nothing about them whatsoever.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Actually the records have been lost in history in utterly disturbing ways and this have happened several times. One such example is:

The Sith attack on Coruscant and obliteration of the centuries-old Jedi Temple wiped out millennia of acquired knowledge. (SWTORE, Page 89)

Their are other notable examples.

The net accumulation of knowledge is still positive. As others have pointed out in various threads, it's been stated that the Sith grow in knowledge with each generation. Space age societies don't regress into dark ages that often. Note that Palpatine, wielding the resources of the largest Empire in galactic history, couldn't eradicate the Jedi Order's teachings after two and half decades, let alone a single strike on Coruscant.

He have lot of options; the mysterious power with which he purged an entire Dark Council is among these options. In-fact, the full extent of his capabilities are unknown. Full-extent is generous term; much about his capabilities is unknown at the moment.

Silly appeals to ignorance aside, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HIS KILLING THE DARK COUNCIL. You have no evidence and no basis to argue that he could use the "mysterious power" (assuming it even is such) against Yoda or Palpatine in a fair fight.

Otherwise, he would have used this technique against Revan.

The encounter was fair because Vitiate allowed the rebellious Dark Council to confront him; also the power unleashed by him during this event is certainly mysterious in nature but it was insta-killer. Also, I don't get this "prep time" argument; it is obvious from so many examples that Force-users are known to gather power to unleash them in highly effective ways but this happens in a span of some seconds. This is true for Vitiate as well.

Bullshit. Vitiate knew exactly where they were going, exactly when they were coming, and had the resources of his entire fortress (and of an empire) at his disposal. There was absolutely nothing "fair" about the engagement, and it's quite frankly ridiculous for you to suggest otherwise.

Explain to me that why would authors not create a story about Vitiate? Vitiate, not commonly using his mysterious talents, is a case of PIS.

Just like Abeloth didn't kill Luke, Ben and Vestara due to Plot Device, similarly Vitiate didn't use his mysterious capabilities commonly during combat situations due to Plot Device.

However, in debates, we need to look at things from neutral perspective and this changes the game.

Nope, can't do. Your theory, that Vitiate can use mysterious insta-kill flash powers whenever he wants, does not fit with the empirical evidence, that is, his not ever using this technique against foes such as Revan and the Hero. Your retarded "dismiss all inconvenient evidence as PIS!" argument just smacks of blatant dishonesty. It's like you aren't even pretending to be impartial here. That Vitiate killed the dark council in a fair fight is not the only possible explanation - it's a rather incoherent and illogical one that you cling to, despite the mental gymnastics and violations of suspension of disbelief needed to do so.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Actually the records have been lost in history in utterly disturbing ways and this have happened several times. One such example is:

The Sith attack on Coruscant and obliteration of the centuries-old Jedi Temple wiped out millennia of acquired knowledge. (SWTORE, Page 89)

Their are other notable examples.

This is certainly huge, but they did gain quite a bit of knowledge that had previously been lost when Satele rediscovered Tython. A lot of stuff from the Je'daii Order for instance.

Darth Plagueis would find a 'way' to win.
(opinion only, not inviting any trouble 🙂
p.s. Darth Sidious moves with sublight speed always makes me laugh.

Originally posted by Master Han
And? Leland Chee has listed The Father as the most powerful being in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Master Han
And yes, we know that you have the fancies for the (evil, genocidal) Sith Emperor, but insinuating that he is above Celestial-level beings in power...

That's just a new level of wank.

Also, I don't know how Sith Emperor ranks in the grand picture but he certainly among the best of the best.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'll call your bluff, then. What loopholes?

Do you honestly think that Sidious cannot be rivaled and/or surpassed?

Originally posted by Master Han
No, he's not. The Sith Emperor is above Palpatine. He was put on his ass by a Revan, despite being amped at the heart of a DS nexus.

Also, that particular Revan's feat bodes well for his capabilities (He was a master of both light and dark side abilities and managed to acquire best possible balance between the two aspects of the Force in galactic history; SWTOR offers more proof in this regard); he pulled of a Oneness like feat at that moment and Sith Emperor was caught with his pants down.

So you want to talk about low moments of Sith Emperor?

How about Sidious (DE) getting his connection to the Force disrupted by a Jedi talent (Force Harmony)? Or how about Sidious (DE) getting owned by Han and Brand?

Do no try to mistake great power with invincibility.

In-fact, Sith Emperor (Vitiate) is the only being in galactic history who eventually found a way to make himself (legitimately) invincible but he was stopped before he could complete his final transformation.

Originally posted by Master Han
DE Sidious is vastly more powerful than Vitiate ever has been. His Force storms are the most destructive manifestations of the Force yet seen in the mythos.

What is your verdict about Nihilus's planetary-scale destructive feat by the way?

Keep in mind that Vitiate is possibly superior to even Nihilus; the former tamed one of the greatest manifestations of dark side power in galactic history with sheer force of his will for his personal gains, while this same power not just obliterated all traces of life in its path but consumed The Force itself around Medriaas. In-fact, it is hinted in canonical sources that Vitiate may have been capable of unleashing destructive power of such a scale single-handedly during his reign as Sith Emperor.

Heck, Vitiate's ultimate plan was to shatter the (Star Wars based) galaxy itself to complete his FINAL TRANSFORMATION in to an omnipotent entity with unparalleled might and capabilities.

Understand, genius?

Originally posted by Master Han
Too bad for you that canon cannot be dismissed by your whim.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK...what does this prove? Are you trying to market the Encyclopedia's (not) brilliant prose?

Vitiate was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. Sidious isn't exclusive in this respect.

Originally posted by Master Han
Darth Sidious literally clouded the light side of the Force itself. 😉

Originally posted by Master Han
Since there are things called "communications" devices in the Star Wars universe, that would be a highly conservative declaration.

By the way, Vitiate kept the existence of an Empire hidden for a century from other major galactic powers. All kind of external attempts to reveal the existence of this reconstituted ancient Sith Empire failed, thanks to capabilities and homework of Vitiate. The Empire eventually marked it presence when Vitiate willed it.

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't really understand your mysterious method of posting quotes that have nothing to do with your stance whatsoever. I've read the book; the two actually did knock the Force out of balance...and your quote does nothing to prove otherwise.

You made this claim originally:

Originally posted by Master Han
knock the Force itself out of balance with his mere presence,

- and it is wrong.

Originally posted by Master Han
Notice that they did so not through the use of sith alchemy, and not through the siphoning of energy sources, but rather through their own sheer power.

Sidious and Plagueis rank among the most powerful Force users in the mythos. And Palpatine hasn't even peaked yet.

- Did I deny?

Originally posted by Master Han
To the extent that Palpatine turned an entire populated planet into a twisted manifestation of the dark side?

Sidious's very death created a DS Force nexus.

Jedi, who existed much later (e.g. Yoda, Luke, Ben, Katarn) felt overwhelmed in the environment of Dromund Kaas when they visited this world. All of these Jedi felt that they couldn't properly use their abilities on this world.

I guess that capabilities of HoT, Revan and Meetra are massively underestimated. These Force-users proved that they could better cope with harsh environments then even the most prominent Force-users in the future. HoT, in particular, accomplished the impossible (SWTORE is correct to note that HoT dealt with impossible odds).

I am disappointed in Yoda and Luke now since available evidence proves that these two Jedi are not the unstoppable juggernauts of destruction who are likely to be successful in any era they are thrown in to in history, regardless of significant fan hype behind them. It feels good to note that authorities eventually pulled the plug of invincibility from these two Jedi. 😎

I recall Luke getting pwned by Exar Kun. So, genius, caution is advised. You better accept the FACT that both Yoda and Luke can loose to prominent Force-users of the PAST.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm assuming that you're taking the information beyond your italics from canon sources, rather than your own fandom.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, Plagueis realized that, even though he wasn't blessed with this kind of talent, he could still do it anyway.

Originally posted by Master Han
Ignoring the fact that your hard evidence for sith sorcery's being impossible to defend against with "conventional countermeasures" is precisely zero beyond massive leaps in logic from pseudo-philosophical ramblings, Yoda and Palpatine are both intimately familiar with sith sorcery. Next.

Your belief in invincibility of Yoda and Sidious is misplaced. Both delved in ancient sources to improve their understanding of the mysterious of The Force. It is not as if these two invented new things and put the ancients to shame by doing so.

Originally posted by Master Han
More useless quotes. "sinister" and "uncharted" really don't impress me.

That quote confirms that Vitiate delved in to the unnatural aspects of The Force a lot deeper then most ever managed to among the dark side practitioners.

Originally posted by Master Han
For all his secretive nature, the Emperor has nothing on Yoda and Palpatine, who hold over Vitiate the subtle advantage of having lived after his time, and therefore his knowing literally nothing about them whatsoever.

This proves that you have not done your homework. Birth in future, in no way or form, benefitted Yoda and Sidious in regard to having access to information of about the PAST. Reason is that so many ancient records have ended up getting destroyed or lost with passage of time that full recovery did not remained a possibility. The book on Plagueis, itself, confirmed this situation repeatedly. Sidious was more lucky then Plagueis in uncovering ancient records but this doesn't proves that he found everything or learned a lot about Vitiate. I have pointed it out already that history of ancient records is filled with terrible losses. Unlike the Jedi, the Sith were not always so passionate about passing their knowledge to future generations.

Originally posted by Master Han
The net accumulation of knowledge is still positive. As others have pointed out in various threads, it's been stated that the Sith grow in knowledge with each generation. Space age societies don't regress into dark ages that often. Note that Palpatine, wielding the resources of the largest Empire in galactic history, couldn't eradicate the Jedi Order's teachings after two and half decades, let alone a single strike on Coruscant.

Reality is that a chunk of vital ancient records have been permanently lost. Time and again, individuals (of the most recent eras) have attempted to uncover ancient knowledge and ended up disappointed. Just consider the example of Krayt; he should benefit from Plagueis's and Palpatine's secrets but this was not to be. May I ask why?

Originally posted by Master Han
Silly appeals to ignorance aside, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HIS KILLING THE DARK COUNCIL. You have no evidence and no basis to argue that he could use the "mysterious power" (assuming it even is such) against Yoda or Palpatine in a fair fight.

During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come. (SWTORE, Page 156)

The information available is good enough to make us wonder about mysterious capabilities of Vitiate.

Originally posted by Master Han
Otherwise, he would have used this technique against Revan.

Revan's book represents work of one author. In contrast, SWTORE is the newer source (a product of work of several authors) and it offers more information about Vitiate accordingly. Do the math.

Originally posted by Master Han
Bullshit. Vitiate knew exactly where they were going, exactly when they were coming, and had the resources of his entire fortress (and of an empire) at his disposal. There was absolutely nothing "fair" about the engagement, and it's quite frankly ridiculous for you to suggest otherwise.

You think that Dark Council members would plan to overthrow Sith Emperor without being careful or maintain utmost secrecy prior to engaging in the act? You think that Sith Emperor doesn't have foresight abilities?

Even if we are to assume that whistle was blown (which is not apparent from existing information), Sith Emperor still allowed the first known rebellious Dark Council to assemble its resources and try to strike at him and he purged much of it right on the spot when it came too close to him.

Originally posted by Master Han
Nope, can't do. Your theory, that Vitiate can use mysterious insta-kill flash powers whenever he wants, does not fit with the empirical evidence, that is, his not ever using this technique against foes such as Revan and the Hero. Your retarded "dismiss all inconvenient evidence as PIS!" argument just smacks of blatant dishonesty. It's like you aren't even pretending to be impartial here. That Vitiate killed the dark council in a fair fight is not the only possible explanation - it's a rather incoherent and illogical one that you cling to, despite the mental gymnastics and violations of suspension of disbelief needed to do so.

Secondly;

He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel.

This information confirms that the encounter was as FAIR as possible because Sith Emperor wanted to demonstrate to his followers that he is not to be underestimated even at personal capacity. The showdown proves that Vitiate understood the dark side in ways that majority didn't. More importantly, it would be asinine to assume that Vitiate would pack select few talents that we have come to know in Revan's book; he would have packed lot of talents on the whole.

Thirdly, authors are interested in STORY TELLING; they are likely to create PLOT DEVICES for STORY TELLING purposes.

Some examples:-

Abeloth gets ample opportunities to kill Luke and Ben but she doesn't in her story and this is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to bail out Luke and Ben in respectable manner to appease their fans.

Revan was utterly outgunned when Vitiate began to take him seriously but successful interference from the allies of the former is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to bail out Revan in respectable manner to appease his fans.

It was not necessary for Sidious to engage Luke in martial aspects of combat after becoming so powerful in DE era but he did so and lost to him in one such encounter. This is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to make the Jedi (Luke and Leia) look good in front of him but the fact is that they were no match for him in fair manner.

------

Of-course, these examples do not prove that Abeloth, Vitiate and Sidious are invincible and unstoppable; they can be stopped depending upon the right kind of opposition. But point is that they have unique advantages of their own in comparison to majority in the mythos and can mark their presence and legitimately premium Force-users.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is certainly huge, but they did gain quite a bit of knowledge that had previously been lost when Satele rediscovered Tython. A lot of stuff from the Je'daii Order for instance.

However, point is that it is unlikely for Yoda to know a thing or two about all individuals that preceded him.

For example: Yoda might know a lot less about secrets of Infinite Empire then lets say Revan. The latter was shunned and reviled even after redemption and stayed away from Jedi business as a consequence. Then he vanished... You can get my gist.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Thirdly, authors are interested in STORY TELLING; they are likely to create PLOT DEVICES for STORY TELLING purposes.

[B]Some examples:-

Abeloth gets ample opportunities to kill Luke and Ben but she doesn't in her story and this is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to bail out Luke and Ben in respectable manner to appease their fans.
[/B]

This is not an argument. Where is the evidence ? Luke and Ben are powerful in their own right. Lucas told Luke has the same potential as Anakin (chosen one) and he has enough proof of power, which everyone knows.

If we dont have your so called plot devices, watching a film would be like watching Sidious move here and there for an hour and then Abeloth and then Vitiate for another hour moving about. And then telling the people "hey these are the most powerful super villians, so enjoy Starwars" hehehe.

they create duels for more or less equally powerful characters to enjoy Starwars.

Originally posted by darth venki
This is not an argument. Where is the evidence ? Luke and Ben are powerful in their own right. Lucas told Luke has the same potential as Anakin (chosen one) and he has enough proof of power, which everyone knows.

Sidious had ample opportunity to kill both Luke and Leia and rather easily; he wielded such powers during DE era. However, plot device is that he wanted Skywalkers to serve him and he made effort towards this end, which gave the Skywalkers the opportunity to unite their strength, plan and set the stage for his eventual demise.

I don't know what you people focus upon while reading a story but my "research oriented background" helps ne to look at things in more depth then what is expected in norm. I can easily differentiate 2 from 4 in a complex story.

Originally posted by darth venki
If we dont have your so called plot devices, watching a film would be like watching Sidious move here and there for an hour and then Abeloth and then Vitiate for another hour moving about. And then telling the people "hey these are the most powerful super villians, so enjoy Starwars" hehehe.

When Abeloth was unleashed in the story, she was the most powerful being in the galaxy at that point but authors found a way to put her down. In the story, Abeloth made some miscalculations and paid the price. However, if Abeloth had thought straight then she would have eliminated all opposition but....

The above is true for Vitiate as well.

Originally posted by darth venki
they create duels for more or less equally powerful characters to enjoy Starwars.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't have fancies for the Sith Emperor; what I appreciate is that the list of (super) characters is expanding with passage of time which is good thing. It became tiresome to always hear ramblings about Luke and Sidious in debates concerning Star Wars. Now we have more (super) characters to talk about and G-canon characters have serious competition.

“serious competition”? Don’t make me laugh – your stance towards the Sith Emperor has consistently been that he is above the competition to such an extent that not even Abeloth could defeat him. A claim that exists only due to your devoted fascination to your favorite video game.

Also, I don't know how Sith Emperor ranks in the grand picture but he certainly among the best of the best.

Bullshit. You’ve made it clear on multiple occasions your belief that the Sith Emperor is the most powerful character in the mythos.

Such declarations in favor of Sidious are in sources which are now outdated. The latest sources do not hype Sidious in same fashion.

LOL, these are the brilliant “loopholes” you tried to intimidate me into dropping the point with?

Contrary to your own fanon, sources do not lose their validity over time. Sidious is the most powerful sith lord in history. Deal with it.

Do you honestly think that Sidious cannot be rivaled and/or surpassed?

He has not been, as canon says.

The "amping" part is BS! Sith Emperor once pwned a Jedi Strike Team of one of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order in a neutral setting (a space station). Sith Emperor doesn't needs amping to be super strong.

Who said he wasn’t “super strong”? He just isn’t as powerful as Sidious or Yoda.

Also, that particular Revan's feat bodes well for his capabilities (He was a master of both light and dark side abilities and managed to acquire best possible balance between the two aspects of the Force in galactic history; SWTOR offers more proof in this regard); he pulled of a Oneness like feat at that moment and Sith Emperor was caught with his pants down.

Don’t wax bullshit. Almost everything you just posted is pure fabrication; at no point does the text imply that Revan reached a state of Oneness; to quite the contrary, it makes it clear that he planned to use that technique to counter the Emperor’s power. It wasn’t a sudden epiphany. Or did Revan, well aware of Vitiate’s power, charge into his throne room with the hopes of his conveniently achieving a state of “oneness”?

So you want to talk about low moments of Sith Emperor?
How about Sidious (DE) getting his connection to the Force disrupted by a Jedi talent (Force Harmony)? Or how about Sidious (DE) getting owned by Han and Brand?

Your first point is useless (how is this a low showing?), and your second point refers to the Empire’s End Palpatine who was dying.

Now that you’ve gotten out your transparent attempt to change the subject, feel free to justify your ranking Vitiate so ridiculously high on the power totem, when he struggled against Revan whilst on a dark side nexus.

By this logic, Sidious (DE) is vastly more powerful then The Father and Abeloth because they haven't demonstrated this level of talent either. 🙄

From a holistic standpoint, Abeloth and the Father have feats and accolades to their name that surpass Palpatine’s. Vitiate does not.

What is your verdict about Nihilus's planetary-scale destructive feat by the way?

It’s not necessarily a conventional technique Nihilus developed out of his mastery of the Force, but rather a product of his nature.

Keep in mind that Vitiate is possibly superior to even Nihilus;

Probably, yes. Given that the Revan novel suggests that Revan may also be more powerful than Nihilus. Too bad for you that Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord of all time.

Understand, genius?

Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord to ever live, says canon. I don’t have to be a genius to figure this out.

Too bad for you that canon is continuously evolving.

Too bad for you that sophistic evasions like these don’t constitute a legitimate argument.

You are not paying attention?

Vitiate was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. Sidious isn't exclusive in this respect.

So I was right, then. Because I don’t see how military and political acumen have anything whatsoever to do with this debate, and I don’t suppose you do, either.

Sounds like a metaphore.

I can just feel the clouds of irony passing over your head.

The Force titled in favor of the dark side and the end result would have been what you are trying to describe here.

Palpatine and Plagueis upset the balance of the Force itself. Your summarizing my point doesn’t somehow refute it.

Interesting thought but I don't see the relevance of communication devices in this case. Millions of people suddenly forgot about an event (Thanks to telepathic influence of Palpatine) but how exactly the communication devices would have compromised this development? If information about the "event in question" somehow got out, the inhabitants of Coruscant would have dismissed it as rumor. In addition, their is no proof that the "event in question" was being broadcasted while it happened, or their actually is?

So not a single person happened to be chatting with someone over space?

By the way, Vitiate kept the existence of an Empire hidden for a century from other major galactic powers. All kind of external attempts to reveal the existence of this reconstituted ancient Sith Empire failed, thanks to capabilities and homework of Vitiate. The Empire eventually marked it presence when Vitiate willed it.

Irrelevant.

Excuse me! I am posting relevant information. That quote is straight from the book about Plagueis.

That the quote pertains to the subject matter doesn’t mean that it has anything to do with the argument.

You made this claim originally:

- and it is wrong.

By “mere presence”, I meant that he did so without the use of rituals or sorcery, as is the case with 99+% of Vitiate’s feats.

- They meditated a lot for this objective and eventually accomplished it; I am not sure if others have ever attempted this. This feat however reveals a loophole; limitation of The Father?

Whatever it suggests, your claim that Sidious by RotS has little knowledge of the more arcane aspects of the Force is patently laughable. Do you really think he would have passed up the learning of techniques that you claim are indefensible?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Perhaps you need to pay attention to ground realities of Dromund Kaas? Vitiate significantly altered its environment with his dark side abilities, permanently transforming Dromund Kaas to a world strong in the dark side.

It was already steeped in the dark side...

and, that he can do this over a thousand years hardly compares with Sidious's doing this to Byss in a few decades.

I am disappointed in Yoda and Luke now since available evidence proves that these two Jedi are not the unstoppable juggernauts of destruction who are likely to be successful in any era they are thrown in to in history, regardless of significant fan hype behind them. It feels good to note that authorities eventually pulled the plug of invincibility from these two Jedi. 😎

Yeah, you're "disappointed" in their power, because disappointment "feels good to note". If you're going to pretend to maintain some measure of impartiality...you need to do it better.

And here you are again, calling literally a dozen canon statements "fan hype". You are the fan trying to supplement official hierarchies with your own based on vague declarations of said evidence being "outdated".

I recall Luke getting pwned by Exar Kun. So, genius, caution is advised. You better accept the FACT that both Yoda and Luke can loose to prominent Force-users of the PAST.

Don't get your hopes up. Not only was this (pre-NJO and still young) Luke "pwned" by Exar Kun working in tandem with Kyp Durron, but Kevin J Anderson, the creator of Exar Kun, has explicitly stated that all the ancient sith he created were on a "firmly lower tier" than Palpatine.

I have summarized the ground realities of The Force for you; this level of understanding is based on reading lot of Star Wars stuff.

So, no then.

And what did I said?

That he was blessed with said talent...how is this confusing you?

What makes you think that these two have answer for any kind of application? What makes you think that these two have an answer for Zannah's Sith Sorcery based talents, let alone Vitiate's monstrous capabilities?

Because Yoda studied defenses against every dark side technique? Because none of these "monstrous capabilities" have ever been demonstrated in combat?

Your belief in invincibility of Yoda and Sidious is misplaced. Both delved in ancient sources to improve their understanding of the mysterious of The Force. It is not as if these two invented new things and put the ancients to shame by doing so.

Too bad that the supposedly combat-applicable, unblockable sith sorcery Vitiate supposedly possesses has never been quantified.

Translation: I (Master Han) am not interested in facts. 🙄

That quote confirms that Vitiate delved in to the unnatural aspects of The Force a lot deeper then most ever managed to among the dark side practitioners.

The quote confirms that Vitiate is "sinister" and "uncharted".

🙄

This proves that you have not done your homework. Birth in future, in no way or form, benefitted Yoda and Sidious in regard to having access to information of about the PAST. Reason is that so many ancient records have ended up getting destroyed or lost with passage of time that full recovery did not remained a possibility. The book on Plagueis, itself, confirmed this situation repeatedly. Sidious was more lucky then Plagueis in uncovering ancient records but this doesn't proves that he found everything or learned a lot about Vitiate. I have pointed it out already that history of ancient records is filled with terrible losses. Unlike the Jedi, the Sith were not always so passionate about passing their knowledge to future generations.

You're totally right. The modern US military would not stand a chance against the Romans and their lost knowledge and technology.

You are utterly mistaken that Sith grew in knowledge with each generation. If this was the case then Brotherhood of Sith would have been more knowledgeable then ancient Sith (In-fact the reverse was true and Bane despised this group). Also, name a single dark side ability of Palpatine which is exclusive to him. Even the famed Force Storm talent is not exclusive to him.

I'm referring to Bane's order, which, per the Phantom Menace Scrapbook, grew in power with every generation.

Reality is that a chunk of vital ancient records have been permanently lost. Time and again, individuals (of the most recent eras) have attempted to uncover ancient knowledge and ended up disappointed. Just consider the example of Krayt; he should benefit from Plagueis's and Palpatine's secrets but this was not to be. May I ask why?

So what? Palpatine and Plagueis developed entirely new powers that Vitiate would also be unfamiliar with. It works both ways.

The difference is that Palpatine is far more martially competent than Vitiate.

I know this much:

During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come. (SWTORE, Page 156)

The information available is good enough to make us wonder about mysterious capabilities of Vitiate.

It is beginning to tire me that you continue to insist on using "mysterious" powers that we know literally nothing about in a debate supposedly founded on facts and evidence.

Do you think that Revan was bigger threat then a rebellious Dark Council? Or remotely even close?

Scourge's visions suggested that the trio had a serious shot of taking Vitiate down.

So what? Vitiate just decided to fight them hands on (and almost die to Meetra's saber throw) for the kicks, instead of employing the uber-powers you claim he possesses?

Revan's book represents work of one author. In contrast, SWTORE is the newer source (a product of work of several authors) and it offers more information about Vitiate accordingly. Do the math.

This isn't "math". This is your unsubstantiated rambling; NOWHERE IS IT EXPLAINED HOW VITIATE KILLED THE DARK COUNCILS!

1. Prove that he did so under his own power,.
2. Prove that the council was not caught off guard.
3. Prove that the feat can be done without preparation time.
4. Prove that this feat would work against Yoda or Palpatine.
5. Explain why he never used this against Revan.

You are utterly wrong; available information supports my position on this, unfortunately for you.

No, available information leads to the only logical conclusion that he does not possess any insta-win powers, because he would have used them against Revan. That you literally dismiss this point (without even pretending to do otherwise) because it doesn't fit with your interpretation does nothing but indicate your utter inability to analyze the evidence objectively.

You think that Dark Council members would plan to overthrow Sith Emperor without being careful or maintain utmost secrecy prior to engaging in the act? You think that Sith Emperor doesn't have foresight abilities?

The point is that they walked right into his fortress, under his terms, with his having time and resources to prepare whatever the **** he wanted to prepare. That this extends towards being able to pull off an insta-win flash-kill in the midst of combat against two extremely powerful individuals is not just wrong; it's flat out madness.

Even if we are to assume that whistle was blown (which is not apparent from existing information), Sith Emperor still allowed the first known rebellious Dark Council to assemble its resources and try to strike at him and he purged much of it right on the spot when it came too close to him.

How do you know he didn't just rig a thermal detonator, or order a strategic missile strike?

Oh, wait, because we're resorting to circular logic here: you dismiss all contrary evidence (vs. Revan) on the grounds that it doesn't fit your conclusion...that is supposed to be derived from said evidence. What dishonest nonsense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
First of all, Vitiate have purged two rebellious Dark Councils (almost) with his personal abilities, and such an act would require unprecedented powers at personal capacity.

No, it would not. It would require a thermal detonator in a closed space.

He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel.

This information confirms that the encounter was as FAIR as possible because Sith Emperor wanted to demonstrate to his followers that he is not to be underestimated even at personal capacity. The showdown proves that Vitiate understood the dark side in ways that majority didn't. More importantly, it would be asinine to assume that Vitiate would pack select few talents that we have come to know in Revan's book; he would have packed lot of talents on the whole.

Please try to think this through, because your logic here is just embarrassing. Why would the Emperor care if he defeated them fair and square when nobody could know either way? If he did not defeat him fair and square, it would look just a legitimate as if he did, because there were no witnesses to confirm it either way.

Thirdly, authors are interested in STORY TELLING; they are likely to create PLOT DEVICES for STORY TELLING purposes.

Fine then. Sidious can defeat Vitiate by exploding his brain with Force Levitate. How do I know, you ask? Well, his powers are still mysterious. Why doesn't he do this against Yoda? Well, because of PIS.

After all, this "dismiss everything I don't like with out-of-universe rationalizations!" shit can go both ways.

Abeloth gets ample opportunities to kill Luke and Ben but she doesn't in her story and this is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to bail out Luke and Ben in respectable manner to appease their fans.

Nope. Abeloth didn't want to kill Ben. And she didn't initially want to kill Luke either. Later, she certainly pulls no strings against the grandmaster.

Revan was utterly outgunned when Vitiate began to take him seriously but successful interference from the allies of the former is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to bail out Revan in respectable manner to appease his fans.

Nope. Vitiate took Revan seriously from the start, and was still put on his ass.

It was not necessary for Sidious to engage Luke in martial aspects of combat after becoming so powerful in DE era but he did so and lost to him in one such encounter. This is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to make the Jedi (Luke and Leia) look good in front of him but the fact is that they were no match for him in fair manner.

Good point! I guess DE Sidious could easily defeat Galactus as well. That he never demonstrates galaxy busting power is simply a product of narrative necessity. Wait, isn't everything a product of narrative or thematic necessity? Including the very power levels you claim lie outside them? Wait, aren't we supposed to be analyzing the empirical evidence, and not authorial intent?

I'd post a funny owned picture, but I'm on my iPhone.

Still can't believe people are dignifying him with responses, but whatever.

The idea that the Dark Council could be taken out by a thermal detonator is dumb as hell though.

lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
The idea that the Dark Council could be taken out by a thermal detonator is dumb as hell though.

This is especially dumb of you to say for an era where bounty hunters and soldiers can take on sith lords. Unless if some "anti-thermal detonator" power appears somewhere in the lore, I see no reason why Vitiate could not drop one on the council, other than your wanting to interpret every possible occurrence as indicative of his possessing magical powers we never see.

They can take on, like, one. And it takes more than a single grenade. They can't take out 12 of the most powerful Sith in the Empire with a single thermal detonator.

Yeah an "anti-thermal detonator" exists, its called a basic ****ing force shield. Just two Dark Council members destroyed the gigantic Citadel, and you think a thermal detonator can take out 12 of them? Jesus....

For the record the SWTOR camp would be using the thermal detonator argument if it were, say, Dooku and not Vitiate or Bane.

Fair play is a b1tch.

WTF. I think Sidious can destroy fleets and still die from a blaster shot to the back. Ever hear of a glass cannon, Neph?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
For the record the SWTOR camp would be using the thermal detonator argument if it were, say, Dooku and not Vitiate or Bane.

Fair play is a b1tch.

WTF. I think Sidious can destroy fleets and still die from a blaster shot to the back. Ever hear of a glass cannon, Neph?

Or Malak, right? 😐

Oh no wait, I thought it was retarded then, too.

Dude was dying. I've never used that against Sidious because ****ing duh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They can take on, like, one. And it takes more than a single grenade. They can't take out 12 of the most powerful Sith in the Empire with a single thermal detonator.

Yeah an "anti-thermal detonator" exists, its called a basic ****ing force shield. Just two Dark Council members destroyed the gigantic Citadel, and you think a thermal detonator can take out 12 of them? Jesus....

Your typical thermal detonator can vaporize pretty much everything within a 10 meter radius. More powerful thermal detonators can have blast radii of up to 100 meters - around the size of Hiroshima's fireball.

Now, nobody said Vitiate wasn't doing anything under his own power to contribute to the assassination; he could have clouded their minds and drained their precognition and ability to erect Force defenses. But Jedi and Sith alike have used grenades to take out Force users before, and the notion that Vitiate stood in front of the council and just insta-killed them with a flash of light, and that he could do this against anyone in any circumstance, smacks of pure straw grabbing.