Who can stop Dark Side Mortis Anakin?

Originally posted by Master Han
“serious competition”? Don’t make me laugh – your stance towards the Sith Emperor has consistently been that he is above the competition to such an extent that not even Abeloth could defeat him. A claim that exists only due to your devoted fascination to your favorite video game.

Analogy:

SWTCE (released in 2005) claims that Sidious was the most powerful practitioner of the dark but the relevance of this accolade is in accordance with the information contained in SWTCE. Since then, Star Wars content have significantly expanded further in which more (super) strong characters have been introduced or expanded upon such as Vitiate, Plagueis, The Father and Abeloth.

SWTERC (released in 2012; a real-world perspective based source) promotes no dark sider as most powerful in history.

SWTORE came out even later in 2012 and its information may or may not make different in future historical compilations; entirely depends upon which authors are writing the books.

However, fans of Yoda and Sidious will never run out of excuses to promote their favorites because they are psychologically resistant to changes; ironically some of these diehard fans will even deny to be fans of Yoda and Sidious just to pretend that they are neutral. Some fans (including me) try to reason with (Yoda and Sidious) wankers that the world is round as per latest findings but they insist that the world is flat. Do these wankers think that they are the authoritarians of the lore? Do they think that they will earn awards from Mr. Lucas himself for promoting his characters? Whom you guys are kidding?

As far as Abeloth is concerned, I never ruled out the possibility of her defeating any potential opponent. However, chances are that a select few can hold their own against her. Vitiate himself packs Abeloth like abilities as an example and he is good at finding ways to undermine overwhelming opposition.

Originally posted by Master Han
Bullshit. You’ve made it clear on multiple occasions your belief that the Sith Emperor is the most powerful character in the mythos.

I mention his accolades when others do the same for other characters. In-fact, I have pointed out that these kind of debates are pointless. Their is no official consensus and vice versa. Fans of Yoda and Sidious will not budge from their perspective and the debate becomes stale and useless.

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, these are the brilliant “loopholes” you tried to intimidate me into dropping the point with?

Contrary to your own fanon, sources do not lose their validity over time. Sidious is the most powerful sith lord in history. Deal with it.

In addition, Star Wars have lot of contributors to it and it isn't necessary for all of them to agree on certain things as well.

Its not like as if a book came out in which all contributors to the lore were asked to take oath that whatever have been mentioned in the book is undisputed and uncontested and that it represents the ultimate truth.

But people like you cannot be reasoned with on these matters. Fans like you are mindless devotees to supposed superiority of Yoda and Sidious.

Originally posted by Master Han
He has not been, as canon says.

Originally posted by Master Han
Who said he wasn’t “super strong”? He just isn’t as powerful as Sidious or Yoda.

Originally posted by Master Han
Don’t wax bullshit. Almost everything you just posted is pure fabrication; at no point does the text imply that Revan reached a state of Oneness; to quite the contrary, it makes it clear that he planned to use that technique to counter the Emperor’s power. It wasn’t a sudden epiphany. Or did Revan, well aware of Vitiate’s power, charge into his throne room with the hopes of his conveniently achieving a state of “oneness”?

Originally posted by Master Han
Your first point is useless (how is this a low showing?), and your second point refers to the Empire’s End Palpatine who was dying.

Originally posted by Master Han
Now that you’ve gotten out your transparent attempt to change the subject, feel free to justify your ranking Vitiate so ridiculously high on the power totem, when he struggled against Revan whilst on a dark side nexus.

Originally posted by Master Han
From a holistic standpoint, Abeloth and the Father have feats and accolades to their name that surpass Palpatine’s. Vitiate does not.

In comparison to Sidious, Vitiate have demonstrated following:-

1. Superior affinity with Sith Sorcery; have handled planetary-scale (or superior) destructive dark side powers; altered the environment of an entire planet
2. Subjugated an entire world (hostile to his progress) by the age of 13; unparalleled accomplishment at such a young age
3. Lasted much longer then Sidious and managed to control a powerful Sith Empire uncontested for over a millenium; effectively controlled MILLIONs of Force-users throughout ages.
4. Superior telepathic feats (Galactic reach in this case)
5. Superior FL feats
6. Superior life-energy siphoning feats (Galactic reach in this case)
7. Superior combat feats with sheer Force abilities
8. Capability to prevent his original body from decaying and aging
9. Eventually found a way to make himself invincible and surpass every kind of entity in power*

*Stopped from accomplishing this objective due to timely intervention from his adversaries.

Originally posted by Master Han
It’s not necessarily a conventional technique Nihilus developed out of his mastery of the Force, but rather a product of his nature.

Originally posted by Master Han
Probably, yes. Given that the Revan novel suggests that Revan may also be more powerful than Nihilus. Too bad for you that Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord of all time.

"You have a very simple view of the Universe. I am neither Sith nor Jedi."

Sidious might be the most powerful follower of Sith philosophy in history but Nihilus and Vitiate aren't exactly Sith by nature; they drifted away from Sith philosophy. In the nutshell, situation is not so black and white.

Originally posted by Master Han
Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord to ever live, says canon. I don’t have to be a genius to figure this out.

Originally posted by Master Han
Too bad for you that sophistic evasions like these don’t constitute a legitimate argument.

Originally posted by Master Han
So I was right, then. Because I don’t see how military and political acumen have anything whatsoever to do with this debate, and I don’t suppose you do, either.

"Beyond Palpatine's vastly superior bladework and tactical acumen"

???

Correction: Sidious wasn't a vastly superior tactical acumen\
Caution: Vitiate have history of handing vastly superior swordmasters their @sses back to them in duels.

Originally posted by Master Han
I can just feel the clouds of irony passing over your head.

Plagueis and Sidious unbalanced The Force itself on the basis of their Sith Sorcery based act and this implies that the light side was clouded/compromised.

Originally posted by Master Han
Palpatine and Plagueis upset the balance of the Force itself. Your summarizing my point doesn’t somehow refute it.

Originally posted by Master Han
So not a single person happened to be chatting with someone over space?

Originally posted by Master Han
Irrelevant.

Originally posted by Master Han
That the quote pertains to the subject matter doesn’t mean that it has anything to do with the argument.

Originally posted by Master Han
By “mere presence”, I meant that he did so without the use of rituals or sorcery, as is the case with 99+% of Vitiate’s feats.

Originally posted by Master Han
Whatever it suggests, your claim that Sidious by RotS has little knowledge of the more arcane aspects of the Force is patently laughable. Do you really think he would have passed up the learning of techniques that you claim are indefensible?

Here:-

Chancellor Palpatine spent many years studying ancient Holocrons to learn the secrets of the Sith. The holcrons enabled him to channel the Sith spirits (right), who taught him how to harness dark side energy and release lethal bolts of lightning. During the Clone Wars, Palpatine conducted Sith rituals on Coruscant that radiated unnerving ripples in the Force, which caused anxiety among most Jedi throughout the galaxy, but also served to increase Anakin Skywalker's hunger for power.

Source: Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

Originally posted by Master Han
It was already steeped in the dark side...

Originally posted by Master Han
and, that he can do this over a thousand years hardly compares with Sidious's doing this to Byss in a few decades.

Also, on what basis have you assumed that it took Vitiate a thousand years to alter the environment of Domund Kaas?

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, you're "disappointed" in their power, because disappointment "feels good to note". If you're going to pretend to maintain some measure of impartiality...you need to do it better.

Originally posted by Master Han
And here you are again, calling literally a dozen canon statements "fan hype". You are the fan trying to supplement official hierarchies with your own based on vague declarations of said evidence being "outdated".

Originally posted by Master Han
Don't get your hopes up. Not only was this (pre-NJO and still young) Luke "pwned" by Exar Kun working in tandem with Kyp Durron, but Kevin J Anderson, the creator of Exar Kun, has explicitly stated that all the ancient sith he created were on a "firmly lower tier" than Palpatine.

And my point is not about who is superior between Exar Kun and Sidious but that Yoda, Sidious and Luke are not infallible.

Originally posted by Master Han
So, no then.

Originally posted by Master Han
That he was blessed with said talent...how is this confusing you?

So what the hell do you think I am trying to convey to you in this case?

This: Plagueis was good in the use of Sith Sorcery (not necessarily ELITE but good) and he eventually realized this after many years of meditation and stuff.

Originally posted by Master Han
Because Yoda studied defenses against every dark side technique? Because none of these "monstrous capabilities" have ever been demonstrated in combat?

Originally posted by Master Han
Too bad that the supposedly combat-applicable, unblockable sith sorcery Vitiate supposedly possesses has never been quantified.

We have examples of him purging two Dark Councils and this cannot be possible with conventional abilities barring Force Storm.

Originally posted by Master Han
The quote confirms that Vitiate is "sinister" and "uncharted".

Were you drunk when you wrote this response?

The revelation is that Vitiate explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side.

Uber genius....fool....

Originally posted by Master Han
You're totally right. The modern US military would not stand a chance against the Romans and their lost knowledge and technology.

You are comparing Sci-Fi with real life?

I guess that you will jump out of the window when you will learn about accomplishments of Celestials (far more ancient civilization then even the Raktans). They reshaped the Galaxy itself; they developed devices that can pull even planets.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm referring to Bane's order, which, per the Phantom Menace Scrapbook, grew in power with every generation.

However, this is not the situation with entire history.

Originally posted by Master Han
So what? Palpatine and Plagueis developed entirely new powers that Vitiate would also be unfamiliar with. It works both ways.

Originally posted by Master Han
The difference is that Palpatine is far more martially competent than Vitiate.

Originally posted by Master Han
It is beginning to tire me that you continue to insist on using "mysterious" powers that we know literally nothing about in a debate supposedly founded on facts and evidence.

Originally posted by Master Han
Scourge's visions suggested that the trio had a serious shot of taking Vitiate down.

Originally posted by Master Han
So what? Vitiate just decided to fight them hands on (and almost die to Meetra's saber throw) for the kicks, instead of employing the uber-powers you claim he possesses?

"That remains to be seen"

Scourge's visions lend credibility to the fact that Vitiate was more then a match for even all 3 of them.

In-fact, prior to this encounter, Vitiate had killed 8 powerful individuals single-handedly.

Originally posted by Master Han
This isn't "math". This is your unsubstantiated rambling; NOWHERE IS IT EXPLAINED HOW VITIATE KILLED THE DARK COUNCILS!

1. Prove that he did so under his own power,.
2. Prove that the council was not caught off guard.
3. Prove that the feat can be done without preparation time.
4. Prove that this feat would work against Yoda or Palpatine.
5. Explain why he never used this against Revan.

Also whole Dark Council will utterly annihilate Revan, Yoda, and Palpatine in a direct confrontation. Only Palpatine (as of DE) can afford to take it out with his Force Storm talent, should he get the opportunity.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, available information leads to the only logical conclusion that he does not possess any insta-win powers, because he would have used them against Revan. That you literally dismiss this point (without even pretending to do otherwise) because it doesn't fit with your interpretation does nothing but indicate your utter inability to analyze the evidence objectively.

Vitiate makes an assessment of his opposition and acts accordingly. For example: Vitiate was trapped and locked in a struggle on Voss by its gigantic entity for the control of an avatar which was under firm control of the entity but he was getting nowhere so he planned destruction of Voss on planetary-scale to eradicate everything on it but a Sith Warrior bailed him out soon after.

The greater the opposition, the more stern action Vitiate is willing to take accordingly. He would have annihilated Revan if the latter was not saved by one of the Jedi's companions and guess what happened to this companion? (Shattered to countless pieces). In-fact, Vitiate braced himself to annihilate the trio of Revan, Meetra and Scourge simultaneously but this was not to happen due to plot device since Revan was featured in SWTOR game and the author couldn't end him like that.

Try to understand presented arguments instead of wasting my time with silly reactions.

Originally posted by Master Han
The point is that they walked right into his fortress, under his terms, with his having time and resources to prepare whatever the **** he wanted to prepare. That this extends towards being able to pull off an insta-win flash-kill in the midst of combat against two extremely powerful individuals is not just wrong; it's flat out madness.

Greatest of the dark side abilities cannot be unleashed right on the spot without adequate preparation. Sidious's command of the Force Storm is not an exception to this rule either; when he began to gather sufficient power to summon unleash Force Storm on his Jedi opposition, the Jedi found ample time to disrupt his connection with the Force with the Force Harmony technique during this moment, which resulted in Sidious loosing control over his powers and the Jedi found sufficient time to escape as well.

But people tend to blow the "preparation" argument out of proportion.

For example: Yoda and Sidious decide to confront Vitiate. Now depending upon the circumstances, Vitiate is likely to prepare himself to fight them if he is aware. This prep might take just a few seconds or minutes? Who knows?

Originally posted by Master Han
How do you know he didn't just rig a thermal detonator, or order a strategic missile strike?

Originally posted by Master Han
Oh, wait, because we're resorting to circular logic here: you dismiss all contrary evidence (vs. Revan) on the grounds that it doesn't fit your conclusion...that is supposed to be derived from said evidence. What dishonest nonsense.

Even that "swirling storm of pure dark side energies" which Vitiate unleashed on Revan would have reduced the Jedi to ash. And Vitiate was ready to up his game even further. To be honest, his limits are planetary-scale devastation. You have no argument.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, it would not. It would require a thermal detonator in a closed space.

Please try to think this through, because your logic here is just embarrassing. Why would the Emperor care if he defeated them fair and square when nobody could know either way? If he did not defeat him fair and square, it would look just a legitimate as if he did, because there were no witnesses to confirm it either way.

Fine then. Sidious can defeat Vitiate by exploding his brain with Force Levitate. How do I know, you ask? Well, his powers are still mysterious. Why doesn't he do this against Yoda? Well, because of PIS.

After all, this "dismiss everything I don't like with out-of-universe rationalizations!" shit can go both ways.

Nope. Abeloth didn't want to kill Ben. And she didn't initially want to kill Luke either. Later, she certainly pulls no strings against the grandmaster.

Nope. Vitiate took Revan seriously from the start, and was still put on his ass.

Good point! I guess DE Sidious could easily defeat Galactus as well. That he never demonstrates galaxy busting power is simply a product of narrative necessity. Wait, isn't everything a product of narrative or thematic necessity? Including the very power levels you claim lie outside them? Wait, aren't we supposed to be analyzing the empirical evidence, and not authorial intent?

I can raise more questions now:-

1. Why did Vitiate not use his titanic Force Drain abilities on Revan?
2. Why did Vitiate not just sever Revan's connection with the Force?
3. Why did Vitiate not create illusions of himself during this fight to confuse Revan?

Why did Vitiate not use yellow technique against Revan when have used the said technique in a different fight?

I mean, their should be a limit to idiocy.

Vitiate have lot of options under his disposal. What options he uses in a scripted scenario is up to the authors to decide. Of-course, in a neutral situation such as versus scenario, his arsenal of options is BIG:-

1. Telepathic domination
2. Illusions
3. Force Drain
4. Force Sever
5. Force lightning; Swirling Storm
6. Telekinetic applications
7. Energy blasts
9. Sith Sorcery based talents

And the list goes on and on...

Also, nope! We cannot make baseless assumptions like this "Sidious can defeat Vitiate by exploding his brain with Force Levitate" without valid basis because we have to note that how effective he can be with said techniques. We focus on feats; strengths and weaknesses; holistic picture of things and then we can figure out the possibilities accordingly.

For example: Evidence indicates that Vitiate is one of the greatest adepts of Force Drain talent in the mythos and logic dictates that he is going to be effective in its use even in combat situations. Same is true for Sidious.

Damn, five-double post.

Point is that Vitiate have special abilities which are unclear and unidentified at the moment. But the abilities are factual and factor-in. Much about Vitiate's capabilities is shrouded in mystery.

So you're founding your entire argument...on powers we do not know about, whose capabilities are mysterious and undefined?

...and all evidence contrary to your fan interpretation, that by your own admission can't be proven due to the event's mysterious nature, must be dismissed on the arbitrary basis of "plot device"?

Holy shit, why am I even wasting my time with you?

-----

BTW, three major, glaring flaws in your argument:

1. You don't understand what a retcon is.
2. You conceded that your whole bullshit about sith sorcery being somehow uber-more-powerful than regular Force abilities was complete nonsense when you declared that the fact that Palpatine "meditated" by default leads to the conclusion that he must have used rituals. And guess what? Every Jedi and Sith can perform certain feats in the Force through meditation.
3. Exar Kun vs. Luke happened during the Jedi Academy series, not any time significantly near NJO. At this point, he still regularly struggles against random dark Jedi. And the creator of Exar Kun admitted that he is on a firmly lower tier than Palpatine.

Originally posted by Galan007

Dang. Doubt anyone could stop him. Certainly Vitiate would be unable.

Lol Legend strikes again thinking that posting 5 images and making a multi-page post makes his argument valid.

strikes again lol

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol Legend strikes again thinking that posting 5 images and making a multi-page post makes his argument valid.

😂

Originally posted by Master Han
So you're founding your entire argument...on powers we do not know about, whose capabilities are mysterious and undefined?

...and all evidence contrary to your fan interpretation, that by your own admission can't be proven due to the event's mysterious nature, must be dismissed on the arbitrary basis of "plot device"?

Holy shit, why am I even wasting my time with you?

Vitiate's story have been vastly expanded in a sourcebook released after Revan's novel. It is in this new sourcebook that Vitiate's mysterious powers have been hinted upon.

So the situation is like this:-

- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Game (2011) -> Revan is alive
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan (2011) -> Explains how Revan is alive 300 years later
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia (2012) > Vitiate's mysterious powers hinted upon

Everything clear now? Vitiate's actions against Revan are restricted due to plot device.

Keep in mind that Vitiate did not use several of his powers on Revan which he have actually used during some of his other encounters. Therefore, your skeptical attitude towards the mysterious abilities of Vitiate is misplaced.

Vitiate is a new entry in the mythos; featured in few sources thus far. Their is ample room for exploration here. At the moment, we have an example of one of his mysterious abilities in action. However, we cannot just ignore this feat because the mysterious application involved in it is not identified yet. The effectiveness of this mysterious application is certainly quantifiable on the basis of its effectiveness in the event. Nature wise, it seems close to some powers introduced or depicted in KoTOR II.

Originally posted by Master Han
1. You don't understand what a retcon is.

Originally posted by Master Han
2. You conceded that your whole bullshit about sith sorcery being somehow uber-more-powerful than regular Force abilities was complete nonsense when you declared that the fact that Palpatine "meditated" by default leads to the conclusion that he must have used rituals. And guess what? Every Jedi and Sith can perform certain feats in the Force through meditation.

I have pointed out that Plagueis and Sidious unbalanced The Force by performing a ritual. What is so difficult to understand here?

Originally posted by Master Han
3. Exar Kun vs. Luke happened during the Jedi Academy series, not any time significantly near NJO.

Originally posted by Master Han
At this point, he still regularly struggles against random dark Jedi.

In addition, Luke have some of his most impressive showings in DE. Do you realize this? He was already noticeably stronger then Vader by the time he met Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Master Han
And the creator of Exar Kun admitted that he is on a firmly lower tier than Palpatine.

Still, I never argued about Sidious being stronger then Exar Kun! He really is.

The purpose of citing Exar Kun in this debate is to make it clear to you that Yoda and Luke are not infallible regardless of the hype they typically receive. Exar Kun downed a very capable incarnation of Luke and this is eye-opening revelation. The example of Exar Kun proves that HIGH/ELITE TIER of ancient era are very capable and remarkable Force-users and can hold their own against the likes of Yoda, Luke and Sidious.

Originally posted by Galan007

Even though the description mentions Skywalker; isn't The Son actually helping him?

Also, this event represents an ILLUSION.

I recall Meetra defeating Revan and Malak in KoTOR II; doesn't means that she could do so in real life.

Originally posted by Master Han
Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me.

Your claim that somebody would have seen any technological inference ignores the fact that nobody actually saw what happened...except that there was a bright flash, and they all died. That's it. And LOL at the cameras argument; you don't think Vitiate couldn't turn those off on command? So, what's to say he didn't chuck a grenade at them (and there are plenty of ways to figure out who died without having identifiable bodies)? Or pull out a shotgun? You really have no idea.

You can't prove that he used the Force against them to any impressive degree. You can't prove that he really did anything impressive in terms of pure power. He just somehow, mysteriously, managed to kill them with the cards stacked in his favor in every possible manner. It's an inadmissible and wholly useless "feat".

Originally posted by Master Han
You obviously didn't get the memo; the point is that Vitiate could have killed them with anything, and so the feat is utterly unquantifiable and pointless. It could have been a grenade, a shotgun, carbon monoxide, or a giant, bottomless pit. That the ideas seem ridiculous just points to the ridiculous margin of deviation of the quote's possible interpretations.

No, I get what your point is. Its been made before, back when people claimed that Revan could have beaten Malak using mines. So I do get your point. I just think that its incredibly stupid and ignorant. Vitiate doesn't even use a lightsaber, you think he's going to use a ****ing grenade?

And duh people saw it happen, as I said the Citadel is literally right in the middle of Kaas City with dozens of buildings surrounding it and people walking passed it. Sith freely go in and out of it all the time and there are guards everywhere around the entrance. As I said, if it was anything mundane then it would be easily identifiable and the text would not simple say they died in a flash of light and you've not explained what weapon can be that discriminate or offered up a single non-force based attack that can actually accomplish the feat. Regardless of how completely insane it is to think that a mundane weapon can kill the Dark Council.

The quote just says they died in a flash of light. It also says they died 'on' the Citadel steps, ruling out any explosives or other weapon that would surely demolish the steps along with the Council in order to kill them so swiftly and, yknow, with enough firepower to actually kill the most powerful Sith in the Empire. As I've pointed out theres nothing that can actually do that unless we go into Force attacks. Occums Razor dictates that instead of entertaining thoughts of how he could have done it with a weapon, that instead Vitiate used what he's actually known for, his immense Force knowledge and plethora of unknown rituals and techniques, to achieve it.

And even if he did do any of that, that STILL indicates he can pull off something like this with prep, regardless of how he actually achieved it. He's still shown the ability to kill 12 of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy in a single attack, which is above what practically ANY character can survive. If he used a shotgun then drop to your knees because he must be the God of Shotguns, lmao.

I'm not going to dignify this line of reasoning with another response, its too stupid to entertain any longer. I just wanted to make this clear to you and sum up my feelings so you don't go throwing around this inanity in actual debates.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What you have not yet realized is that Revan was destined to survive during his second confrontation with Sith Emperor due to plot device: Revan is alive in SWTOR game which represents events taking place 300 years later after the events of the novel.

Fine then.

Agen Kolar is obviously more than capable of killing Palpatine with his dick. The only reason why he doesn't is because Palpatine has to survive (and win) due to plot device.

Vitiate's story have been vastly expanded in a sourcebook released after Revan's novel. It is in this new sourcebook that Vitiate's mysterious powers have been hinted upon.

His powers are mysterious. You therefore cannot prove that they would be useful in a fight. You therefore are wasting our time by arguing them. Do you understand it, with this simpleton language?

The effectiveness of this mysterious application is certainly quantifiable

THEN WHY THE **** SHOULD I CARE ABOUT IT?

Maybe you can enlighten me then

A retcon implies a re-interpretation of events to change the perception of certain facts. For example, Obi Wan tells Luke in ANH that Vader killed Anakin; later, we learn that he was really lying/twisting the truth, and that Anakin became Darth Vader. The empirical facts didn't change; it is a fact that Obi Wan told Luke that Anakin was killed by Vader, but it was never a "fact", but rather an extrapolation, that Obi Wan was telling the truth.

Here, however, no source has "retconned", contradicted, or even remotely dared to challenge the plethora of assertions that Darth Sidious is the most powerful sith lord in history by as early as AotC. You simply think that "I personally disagree with these statements!" constitutes a retcon.

I didn't get one bit of this gibberish.

I have pointed out that Plagueis and Sidious unbalanced The Force by performing a ritual. What is so difficult to understand here?

That you earlier claimed Vitiate's knowledge of sith sorcery puts him on a "supernatural", even by Force standards, level over Yoda and Palpatine...yet we see Palpatine and Plagueis performing "rituals" (that may not have even been rituals) that possibly outclass anything Vitiate's ever done. And this is pre-TPM Sidious.

This event occurred in 11 ABY and Luke was busy in recreating the Jedi Order during this time (New Jedi Order). This is the beginning of the NJO chapters in Luke's story.

No, it isn't. 😉 Luke's NJO numbers over 200 by the start of the Vong war. There is a fourteen year gap between JA and NJO; ie., the time it took for TPM Anakin to become RotS Anakin. Since Darth Maul could easily kill TPM Anakin, I suppose he's above the one in RotS as well, right? 😆

Is this an official declaration or unofficial one?

A response to an interview question. He says it without hesitation or subjectivity, and he created the damn characters.

Still, I never argued about Sidious being stronger then Exar Kun! He really is.

Then your "Exar Kun can pwn Luke trololol" is nothing more than another one of your wordcount-padding ramblings?

The purpose of citing Exar Kun in this debate is to make it clear to you that Yoda and Luke are not infallible

1. Sidious's defensive abilities can be breached by some techniques.

How pathetic; you think it's a "low showing" that Sidious's defenses can be breached by "some techniques", and criticize me by pointing out that Yoda and Luke aren't "infallible" (by using a Luke significantly weaker than the NJO+ one)...and all for what? The disturbing implication here is either that you think Vitiate is infallible, or that you're pursuing one of the dumbest strawmans in KMC history.

Originally posted by Nephthys So I do get your point. I just think that its incredibly stupid and ignorant. Vitiate doesn't even use a lightsaber, you think he's going to use a ****ing grenade?

Wait, weren't you the one who argued that Vitiate was a proficient lightsaber user? Is this another one of your trademarked flip-flops?

And duh people saw it happen, as I said the Citadel is literally right in the middle of Kaas City with dozens of buildings surrounding it and people walking passed it. Sith freely go in and out of it all the time and there are guards everywhere around the entrance. As I said, if it was anything mundane then it would be easily identifiable and the text would not simple say they died in a flash of light and you've not explained what weapon can be that discriminate or offered up a single non-force based attack that can actually accomplish the feat. Regardless of how completely insane it is to think that a mundane weapon can kill the Dark Council.

You're absolutely right. The Star Wars Universe simply isn't advanced enough to half weapons that kill people with bright flashes of light.

The quote just says they died in a flash of light. It also says they died 'on' the Citadel steps, ruling out any explosives or other weapon that would surely demolish the steps along with the Council in order to kill them so swiftly and, yknow, with enough firepower to actually kill the most powerful Sith in the Empire. As I've pointed out theres nothing that can actually do that unless we go into Force attacks.

Even modern technology can produce weaponry specialized to kill organic beings while minimizing structural damage; ie., neutron bombs.

Occums Razor dictates that instead of entertaining thoughts of how he could have done it with a weapon, that instead Vitiate used what he's actually known for, his immense Force knowledge and plethora of unknown rituals and techniques, to achieve it.

Occam's Razor points towards the Emperor's apparent inability to use this supposedly insta-kill technique in any engagement that we actually see, be it against Revan's B team or the Hero of Tython.

And even if he did do any of that, that STILL indicates he can pull off something like this with prep, regardless of how he actually achieved it. He's still shown the ability to kill 12 of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy in a single attack, which is above what practically ANY character can survive. If he used a shotgun then drop to your knees because he must be the God of Shotguns, lmao.

So what? I'm sure Thrawn, with sufficient prep time, could drop Luke Skywalker if he had a ridiculous set of advantages and cards stacked in his favor, as the Emperor did in his bright-flash attacks. It hardly suggests that Thrawn could take down Darth Maul in a fist fight.

I'm not going to dignify this line of reasoning with another response, its too stupid to entertain any longer. I just wanted to make this clear to you and sum up my feelings so you don't go throwing around this inanity in actual debates.

Don't get too full of yourself, Neph. Maybe your smug sense of superiority would be justified if you actually pulled something off as simple as maintaining a consistent line of reasoning. At this point, it's practically impossible to debate you, because you happen to conveniently shift between "Vitiate would crush anybody with ease!" and "Vitiate would lose against Palpatine in a confrontation" at your leisure, while pretending that rebuttals to one of your dual-personalities doesn't hold against the other. You've even pulled this tactic off in the middle of a single response, for ****'s sake.

Originally posted by Master Han
Wait, weren't you the one who argued that Vitiate was a proficient lightsaber user? Is this another one of your trademarked flip-flops?

I've said that he obviously can use one, but he isn't shown to actually carry one in Revan or in his confrontation with the Strike Team.

The point is that he hardly has a code of honor forbidding the usage of anything beyond his own Force abilities. So that he can kill 10 sith lords of varying levels of power with a massive stacking of the cards in his favor in every conceivable manner hardly impresses me.

I'd imagine that he had a contingency plan in place for such an action. It hardly seems spontaneous.

Actually it was 11.

Sorry, I concede the argument then.