Updated.
Luke Skywalker - 155
Zoneakin - 150
Yoda - 145
Sidious (RotS) - 145
Caedus - 135
Darth Bane - 120
Mace Windu - 115
Dooku - 115
Anakin - 100
Bane (PoD) - 95
Kyle Katarn - 95
Exar Kun - 90
Tulak Hord - 90
Kas'im - 85
Revan - 85
Obi Wan - 85
Raskta Lsu - 85
Darth Maul (TPM) - 75
Darth Vader - 75
Luke Skywalker (RotJ) - 75
Agen Kolar - 70
Kit Fisto - 70
Qui Gon (TPM) - 70
Cin Drallig - 70
General Grievous - 65
Luke Skywalker (ESB) - 65
Obi Wan (AotC) - 50
Darth Nyriss - 40
Obi Wan (TPM) - 30
Lord Scourge: 30
Average Jedi Master (PT): 20
Johun Othone: 10
Vitiate: 1
Anakin's djem so is "super effective" against Dooku's makashi; the latter still does better against analogous opponents, such as Ventress.
Originally posted by Master Han
Updated.Luke Skywalker - 155
Zoneakin - 150
Yoda - 145
Sidious (RotS) - 145
Caedus - 135
Darth Bane - 120
Mace Windu - 115
Dooku - 115
Anakin - 100
Bane (PoD) - 95
Kyle Katarn - 95
Exar Kun - 90
Tulak Hord - 90
Kas'im - 85
Revan - 85
Obi Wan - 85
Raskta Lsu - 85
Darth Maul (TPM) - 75
Darth Vader - 75
Luke Skywalker (RotJ) - 75
Agen Kolar - 70
Kit Fisto - 70
Qui Gon (TPM) - 70
Cin Drallig - 70
General Grievous - 65
Luke Skywalker (ESB) - 65
Obi Wan (AotC) - 50
Darth Nyriss - 40
Obi Wan (TPM) - 30
Lord Scourge: 30
Average Jedi Master (PT): 20
Johun Othone: 10
Vitiate: 1Anakin's djem so is "super effective" against Dooku's makashi; the latter still does better against analogous opponents, such as Ventress.
Darth Bane: 120
What has Bane done that puts him above Windu, Dooku, and even ROTS Kenobi? Kenobi defeated a stronger, faster and overall better Djem So duelist in the form of pre suit Darth Vader. Windu arguably defeated Sidious, and moved just as fast as he was. Dooku moves so fast he creates after images, and has defeated Windu before. Bane's major saber feat is killing Kasim, who would be beaten by Maul and upward.
Kasim and Raskta Lsu: 85
I also think Kasim is too high on this list. I think 75 is a fine place for him. So is Raksta Lsu. Yes, she's really good, but I'd say she wouldn't touch pre-suit Vader. Meaning she isn't as good as say, ROTS Kenobi.
Where is TCW Maul?
Caedus: 135
What has Caedus done that puts him above ROTS Anakin., Windu, Dooku, etc? Caedus feats are mainly Force related stuff such as flow walking. Oh he fought Grand Master Luke? Sidious, Yoda, Kenobi, ROTS Anakin, Windu and arguably Maul would do fine against Caedus. And for those who think Maul is out of Caedus' league? Maul was able to match Sidious in speed on their duel in Mandalore. Sidious is quite possibly the second fastest duelist after Luke himself. Sidious blitzed 3 excellent duelists in the Order in under a second. The fact that Maul didn't get blitzed is amazing. The fact that Maul lasted longer than 4 seconds is even better. Maul has also been noted to move 5 times faster than a regular human. Maul isn't a match for Caedus in FORCE abilities, in sabers, Maul will do fine.
Oh, he had torn tendons, a missing arm and some other injury and was still equal to Jaina, who was being boosted? I never thought of Jaina as someone powerful. yes, she's the granddaughter of Anakin, but in their first fight she lost bad. In the second, she fought like an animal. And the sad thing is, she nearly lost to a CRIPPLE.
Caedus is good, but ROTS Anakin is better. I'd say 85-90 is a decent spot for him.
Revan: 85
What has Revan done that nets him the same skill as Kenobi? Beating Malak, who is not that powerful anyway? Malak had to be amped up by 20 Jedi Masters, and still lost? Malak never struck me as WTFstrong. He struck me as average. Revan is also featless in saber combat as well. His feats are basically in tutaminis.
Originally posted by XRKun
Darth Bane: 120
What has Bane done that puts him above Windu, Dooku, and even ROTS Kenobi? Kenobi defeated a stronger, faster and overall better Djem So duelist in the form of pre suit Darth Vader. Windu arguably defeated Sidious, and moved just as fast as he was. Dooku moves so fast he creates after images, and has defeated Windu before.
Remember that he defeated Kas'im with, what...a year of training under his belt? The same Kas'im who had mastered every technique of every form, and whom Bane suggested to be the greatest swordsman ever. And RoT takes place a decade afterwards? He was called the sith'ari for a reason. That's a title suggesting truly outstanding levels of power.
Bane's major saber feat is killing Kasim, who would be beaten by Maul and upward.
I wouldn't put it at that, given that Bane speculated that Kas'im, who had mastered every movement and every form, was "maybe the greatest swordsman ever". Ever. Ever. He also demonstrates amazing reflexes, leaping up from sleep and opening the door in the time it took Bane to knock.
Kasim and Raskta Lsu: 85
I also think Kasim is too high on this list. I think 75 is a fine place for him. So is Raksta Lsu. Yes, she's really good, but I'd say she wouldn't touch pre-suit Vader. Meaning she isn't as good as say, ROTS Kenobi.
Raksta Lsu was described as the greatest duelist of the Order, and had dedicated her life almost exclusively to the lightsaber. Unless if we presume that Bane's era was really weak in the grand scheme of things, the top dog is bound to be relatively high. She was able to take on Bane, albeit while amped by BM.
Where is TCW Maul?
Haven't really watched the series.
Caedus: 135
What has Caedus done that puts him above ROTS Anakin., Windu, Dooku, etc? Caedus feats are mainly Force related stuff such as flow walking. Oh he fought Grand Master Luke? Sidious, Yoda, Kenobi, ROTS Anakin, Windu and arguably Maul would do fine against Caedus.
Certainly not Maul. Kenobi might hold out due to Soresu, but he wouldn't put Luke in a bacta tank for a week like Caedus did.
1. He took on Luke and gave him hell.
2. He's described as the second greatest duelist in his era.
3. He has a ridiculous pain tolerance and good hand to hand combat skills.
4. His strength in the Force, tied to his dueling prowess, surpasses Vader's.
And for those who think Maul is out of Caedus' league? Maul was able to match Sidious in speed on their duel in Mandalore.
Sidious was toying with the duo.
Sidious is quite possibly the second fastest duelist after Luke himself. Sidious blitzed 3 excellent duelists in the Order in under a second. The fact that Maul didn't get blitzed is amazing. The fact that Maul lasted longer than 4 seconds is even better. Maul has also been noted to move 5 times faster than a regular human. Maul isn't a match for Caedus in FORCE abilities, in sabers, Maul will do fine.
5 times faster than a regular human isn't very impressive, and Caedus did significantly better against Luke, without any zone boost, than Maul did against Sidious.
Oh, he had torn tendons, a missing arm and some other injury and was still equal to Jaina, who was being boosted? I never thought of Jaina as someone powerful. yes, she's the granddaughter of Anakin, but in their first fight she lost bad. In the second, she fought like an animal. And the sad thing is, she nearly lost to a CRIPPLE.
"cripple" Caedus is hardly handicapped at all - he was willing to take on any duelist in the galaxy, sans his uncle Luke, with only one good arm.
Compare this to AotC Obi Wan, for example, who was incapacitated by slashes to his arm and leg, or Dooku, ESB Luke, and Windu, who are all pretty much immobilized by hand chops.
Caedus is good, but ROTS Anakin is better. I'd say 85-90 is a decent spot for him.
No, he's above RotS Anakin. He's more powerful in the Force, has better damage soak, and has better demonstrations of his ability.
Revan: 85
What has Revan done that nets him the same skill as Kenobi? Beating Malak, who is not that powerful anyway? Malak had to be amped up by 20 Jedi Masters, and still lost? Malak never struck me as WTFstrong. He struck me as average. Revan is also featless in saber combat as well. His feats are basically in tutaminis.
I'm extrapolating (vaguely) from:
1. His considerable Force ability (which, again, ties into his saber prowess)
2. His apparent mastering of multiple high level forms
3. There being no implication (to my knowledge) that he primarily relied on his Force abilities, so we can guesstimate a proportional relationship.
Originally posted by Master Han
Raksta Lsu was described as the greatest duelist of the Order, and had dedicated her life almost exclusively to the lightsaber. Unless if we presume that Bane's era was [b]really weak in the grand scheme of things, the top dog is bound to be relatively high. She was able to take on Bane, albeit while amped by BM.[/B]
Raskta was phenomonally skilled imo.
"Now tasked with training apprentices in the forms of lightsaber combat, Raskta had been part of the campaign on Ruusan. Wielding a blue-bladed lightsaber in each hand, and shunning any form of armor, she was a terrifying figure to behold on the battlefield. Johun vividly remembered her carving great swaths of destruction through the heart of the enemy ranks, leaving a litter of bodies in her wake. It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb."
"Raska's blue blades flickered too quickly for the eye to see, neutralizing her enemy's initial, wild attack then landing half a dozen lethal blows to his chest and abdomen. But instead of toppling, the big man kept coming, never even breaking stride. He would have plowed straight into Raskta, trampling her under his heavy boots, had she not cartwheeled to the side at the last possible instant."
"She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.
Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought."
"The young Jedi marveled at the speed and savagery of Raskta's blades. And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage."
Originally posted by Master Han
I'm extrapolating (vaguely) from:1. His considerable Force ability (which, again, ties into his saber prowess)
2. His apparent mastering of multiple high level forms
3. There being no implication (to my knowledge) that he primarily relied on his Force abilities, so we can guesstimate a proportional relationship.
In SWTORE Revans identified as a Jedi Knight instead of a Consular.
Originally posted by Master Han
Remember that he defeated Kas'im with, what...a year of training under his belt? The same Kas'im who had mastered every technique of every form, and whom Bane suggested to be the greatest swordsman ever. And RoT takes place a decade afterwards? He was called the sith'ari for a reason. That's a title suggesting truly outstanding levels of power.Bane isn't exactly what I would call a smart man. And several jedi have mastered every form. Even Piell, Yoda, Windu, Sora Bulq, even Dooku was said to have a general understanding of forms 1-6. And Kasim is far from the greatest swordsman ever. Yoda would beat him. Dooku would beat him. Anakin would beat him. And Bane isn't as good as Anakin. They are close yes. But Anakin is faster and stronger (the Chosen One).
I wouldn't put it at that, given that Bane speculated that Kas'im, who had mastered every movement and every form, was "maybe the greatest swordsman ever". Ever. Ever. He also demonstrates amazing reflexes, leaping up from sleep and opening the door in the time it took Bane to knock.
Raksta Lsu was described as the greatest duelist of the Order, and had dedicated her life almost exclusively to the lightsaber. Unless if we presume that Bane's era was [b]really
weak in the grand scheme of things, the top dog is bound to be relatively high. She was able to take on Bane, albeit while amped by BM.Raskta was amped by BM. You said it yourself. She is definetly good, but not amazing.
Haven't really watched the series.
Certainly not Maul. Kenobi might hold out due to Soresu, but he wouldn't put Luke in a bacta tank for a week like Caedus did.
1. He took on Luke and gave him hell.
2. He's described as the second greatest duelist in his era.
3. He has a ridiculous pain tolerance and good hand to hand combat skills.
4. His strength in the Force, tied to his dueling prowess, surpasses Vader's.Kenobi took on pre-suit Vader and gave him WORSE hell.
Kenobi has excellent hand to hand combat as well. Maul outright MASTERED Teras Kasi. Maul and Kenobi (more so Maul) also have great pain tolerance. Maul is described as an unstoppable dervish of destruction and noted by Plagieus to have phenomenal skill in Jar'Kai. Mace Windu noted Kenobi as the greatest master of Soresu.
In SABER COMBAT, raw force potential shouldn't matter. The only force abilities that really should matter is Shatterpoint, Force Speed, and Force Strength.
Sidious was toying with the duo.
No he wasn't. He was toying with Opress. Point out to me where Sidious was toying with Maul after Opress died.
5 times faster than a regular human isn't very impressive, and Caedus did significantly better against Luke, without any zone boost, than Maul did against Sidious.
I'm pretty sure Caedus wants to kill Luke. He's going to use rage (zone), whether you like it or not.
"cripple" Caedus is hardly handicapped at all - he was willing to take on any duelist in the galaxy, sans his uncle Luke, with only one good arm.
Compare this to AotC Obi Wan, for example, who was incapacitated by slashes to his arm and leg, or Dooku, ESB Luke, and Windu, who are all pretty much immobilized by hand chops.
IDK bout Dooku. HE HAS NO FREAKING HANDS. He can't do anything really. No lightning, etc, nothing.
Windu lost his hand and he is litterally in front of the THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD IN HISTORY. I think he was more scared than in pain.
No, he's above RotS Anakin. He's more powerful in the Force, has better damage soak, and has better demonstrations of his ability.
More powerful in the Force? LOL. A grandson isn't more powerful in the Force than the Chosen One, unless you mean Anakin as Suit-Vader.
Caedus's greatest feats are flow walking and nearly defeating a boosted Jaina.
Anakin has forced Son and Daughter to bow down to him, something only Abeloth and Father can do. That is even out of Luke's capability.
I'm extrapolating (vaguely) from:
1. His considerable Force ability (which, again, ties into his saber prowess)
IDK, Force Speed and Force Strength weren't Revan's great Force feats, tutaminis was.2. His apparent mastering of multiple high level forms
At the time, Ataru, Djem So, Shien, and Niman weren't even created yet. And where does it state this?3. There being no implication (to my knowledge) that he primarily relied on his Force abilities, so we can guesstimate a proportional relationship. [/B]
Bane isn't exactly what I would call a smart man.
...what?
And several jedi have mastered every form. Even Piell, Yoda, Windu, Sora Bulq, even Dooku was said to have a general understanding of forms 1-6.
Only a small handful of Jedi have mastered every form, and only Kas'im has been stated to know every sequence and movement.
And Kasim is far from the greatest swordsman ever. Yoda would beat him. Dooku would beat him. Anakin would beat him. And Bane isn't as good as Anakin. They are close yes. But Anakin is faster and stronger (the Chosen One).
That's just PoD Bane, though.
Although, now that I think of it, we should remember that Bane praised Kas'im in the context of why he was winning against Bane; obviously, he didn't mean "greatest ever" in linear prowess, because Bane was obviously his superior in that regards. So it may have referred to technical skill and versatility.
Nonetheless, it's an impressive feat in light of Bane's minimal training.
Raskta was amped by BM. You said it yourself. She is definetly good, but not amazing.
It may be somewhat futile to rank her, as we know almost nothing about her. But her enormous dedication and talent with the blade, and her massive killcount, would put her at least around Kit Fisto's level. I decided to elevate her based on her status as the top duelist of the Order. It's difficult to pinpoint exact locations.
Kenobi took on pre-suit Vader and gave him WORSE hell.
Aside from Emokin's fatal mistake...no, he didn't. He gave ground and managed to survive. He even got a few good hits in. But he was clearly losing throughout the engagement.
BTW, Luke > Vader (by a lot).
Kenobi has excellent hand to hand combat as well. Maul outright MASTERED Teras Kasi. Maul and Kenobi (more so Maul) also have great pain tolerance.
Of these, only Maul rivals Caedus in pain tolerance. Kenobi and Mace have both been incapacitated by (from Caedus's PoV) minor wounds.
Maul is described as an unstoppable dervish of destruction and noted by Plagieus to have phenomenal skill in Jar'Kai. Mace Windu noted Kenobi as the greatest master of Soresu.
Impressive accolades, but hardly on Caedus's level, who:
1. Took on Luke Skywalker
2. Is the second best duelist of the Order. In his mind, he's the second best even with one working arm.
In SABER COMBAT, raw force potential shouldn't matter. The only force abilities that really should matter is Shatterpoint, Force Speed, and Force Strength.
Force mastery correlates to all those amps, though. Hence why Bane was beating Kas'im.
Caedus is stronger in the Force than Anakin. He has greater pain tolerance. He's the smarter fighter. He has better feats. He would win.
No he wasn't. He was toying with Opress. Point out to me where Sidious was toying with Maul after Opress died.
Fair enough point, but Maul was fighting with a circumstantial rage boost beyond what he could consistently pull in a confrontation.
I'm pretty sure Caedus wants to kill Luke. He's going to use rage (zone), whether you like it or not.
LOL, wut? By that logic, Maul should have fought like he did at the end from the start, since he certainly wasn't holding back against his master. It doesn't work that way.
IDK bout Dooku. HE HAS NO FREAKING HANDS. He can't do anything really. No lightning, etc, nothing.
He has legs, elbows, TK, etc. Caedus is clearly a more well rounded, versatile combatant than even Anakin/Dooku.
Windu lost his hand and he is litterally in front of the THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD IN HISTORY. I think he was more scared than in pain.
Scared? 😆 Lucky for you this isn't true, because it really doesn't help your case. Caedus believed he was fighting Luke on the Anakin Solo, and still continued to do battle with one good arm.
More powerful in the Force? LOL. A grandson isn't more powerful in the Force than the Chosen One, unless you mean Anakin as Suit-Vader.
Not potential. In actual mastery of the Force, Vader >>> Anakin. And Caedus canonically > Vader.
Caedus's greatest feats are flow walking and nearly defeating a boosted Jaina.
Those are just some of his many feats, which demonstrate that he's only modestly below Luke as a saber combatant, and therefore beyond Anakin.
Anakin has forced Son and Daughter to bow down to him, something only Abeloth and Father can do. That is even out of Luke's capability.
This is Zoneakin.
Updated slightly.
Luke Skywalker - 155
Zoneakin - 150
Yoda - 145
Sidious (RotS) - 145
Caedus - 135
Darth Bane - 120
Mace Windu - 115
Dooku - 115
Anakin - 100
Bane (PoD) - 95
Kyle Katarn - 95
Exar Kun - 90
Tulak Hord - 90
Kas'im - 85
Revan - 85
Obi Wan - 85
Raskta Lsu - 75
Darth Maul (TPM) - 75
Darth Vader - 75
Luke Skywalker (RotJ) - 75
Agen Kolar - 70
Kit Fisto - 70
Qui Gon (TPM) - 70
Cin Drallig - 70
General Grievous - 65
Luke Skywalker (ESB) - 65
Obi Wan (AotC) - 50
Darth Nyriss - 40
Obi Wan (TPM) - 30
Lord Scourge: 30
Average Jedi Master (PT): 20
Johun Othone: 10
Vitiate: 1