Originally posted by Nephthys
So is anyone going to actually respond to the thread?
Context is needed. What resources do they have available to them? Under what circumstances do they encounter him? Does Vitiate have prep time? etc.
We don't really know how powerful the Emperor's Wrath is at his peak. For all we know, he may be equal to the Hero.
Originally posted by Master Han
Context is needed. What resources do they have available to them? Under what circumstances do they encounter him? Does Vitiate have prep time? etc.We don't really know how powerful the Emperor's Wrath is at his peak. For all we know, he may be equal to the Hero.
No prep for Vitiate since it would be a massacre otherwise. The team is at full health and fully stocked on supplies (maximum rockets and shit for the Champ). Same as the Malgus fight, they walk in and start fighting.
Good question. Some people have argued that the Wrath is indeed the Heroes equal. Its a thing I don't know much about tbh, but I highly doubt the Wrath is that close to Vitiate himself considering he serves the guy.
Edit: 20% is a big deal bro. estahuh
The five Jedi strike team lost to Vitiate, with their silly "stand there and try to get him to surrender" tactic hardly helping turn the tide in their favor. If they bullrush Vitiate with guns blazing, flank him, and force him on the defensive with a combination of ranged firepower and saber rattling...they could win.
I specifically wanted to see if Vitiate could have fared better than Malgus did.
Originally posted by Master Han
The five Jedi strike team lost to Vitiate, with their silly "stand there and try to get him to surrender" tactic hardly helping turn the tide in their favor. If they bullrush Vitiate with guns blazing, flank him, and force him on the defensive with a combination of ranged firepower and saber rattling...they could win.
Hmm interesting.
Although, that Malgus is able to Force lightning them to the ground (1.05) and throw them around at the start of his battle (2.17).....
Personally I think Vitiate can win after a tough fight. He's definitely much stronger than any of them and he does have that feat of whooping Tol Braga's strike team. Obviously Nox and the Wrath are both extremely powerful badasses, but Cipher 9 doesn't really have much in the way of combat feats and while the Grand Champ is one of the best Non-Force users in the mythos, he's out of his league.
Malgus was tossing this team around, even if he lost in the end. And Vitiate is a step above Malgus.
ugh3 Dude, really?
Also, reading up on Sel-Makor and the incident where the Wrath has to free him, I highly doubt the Voice would be near his peak, since Vitiate was actively resisting Sel-Makor and trying to let the Wrath kill him, and they had been locked in a battle of wills and power for some time.
Also I was wrong about Vitiate receiving power from Sel-Makor. It was actually Darth Baras who Sel-Makor amped. My bad. Looks good for Baras though. I guess theres a reason they keep going on about him being invincible in the Warrior campaign.
I'm actually going to agree with Nephthys here. While the team can pull off a victory with the proper tactics and under the right circumstances, in a "fair" confrontation, only the Wrath and Nox are relevant here, and if Vitiate can take out the five "most powerful" Jedi barring Shan and the HoT with casual ease...he's not falling to two of the not-necessarily most powerful sith.
Thanks for the support.
I didn't really know where to put this but this thread is basically the Vitiate thread anyway so: Skip to 27.00. "The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor at the end, and the Emperor's body does die.”
Looks like its almost certain that the person the Hero of Tython defeated at the end of the the game was indeed the Emperors real body (but he then strongly indicates that Vitiate probably survives). Also this thread has strong evidence that way. So yeah, great feat for the HoT and clears that up a bit imo.
Yeah, thats the only real wrinkle. Though as they discuss in the thread it is said that Vitiate had become a completely different creature than what he was born as "His power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy." and in the podcast the guy talks about how it may not be the first time Vitiate has died when the Knight kills him.
Sith failed to defeat/capture the Republic in history prior to Sidious due to infighting/betrayals. Jedi and Republic forces simply took advantage of these occurrences.
By nature, Sith philosophy promotes competition and quest for supreme power.
Sith still came close to wiping out the Jedi Order and conquering the Republic several times in history.
1. Great Sith War*
2. Jedi Civil War**
3. Sith Triumvirate***
4. Great galactic war****
*Sith failed due because Ludo Kressh turned on Naga Sadow.
**Sith failed because Malak turned on Revan.
***Sith failed due to infighting between the Triumvirate; Traya prepared Meetra to end the Triumvirate.
****Sith failed because Vitiate was betrayed. The seeds of this betrayal were sowed by Nyriss actually which led to Scourge plotting against Vitiate. Scourge's defection to Republic proved to be valuable for Jedi and Republic; he is the worst thing ever happen to the reconstituted Sith Empire.
---
Sith then had to change tactics. They had to stop raising armies and attempt to conquer the galaxy and purge the Jedi in this fashion. They had to infiltrate the Republic from within and plant the seeds of its transformation. They had to wait for the Jedi Order to grow out of touch and loose their edge over ways of the Force. They had to fuel the corruption within the Republic and use this development to its advantage. Eventually a time came when Sith were in the position to put their grand plans in motion and Sidious fit the bill, thanks to preparation and guidance of Plagueis.
Its not like as if Sidious magically became the most successful Sith Lord in history. Lot of developments led to his rise and paved way for his success; the Sith that preceded him deserve credit as well.
People can learn a lot about these matters from following sources:-
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
- Star Wars: Darth Plagueis
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
- Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
- Star Wars: Darth Bane: Rule of Two
- Star Wars: Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
It is vital to consult these sources to learn about failures and successes of Sith and associated reasons.
To be honest, Vitiate's influence over galactic events and accomplishments are massively underestimated.
Vitiate;
1. Saved Sith from extinction in the aftermath of Great Sith War.
2. Reconstituted the ancient Sith Empire in regions unknown to enemies of Sith and shaped in to a highly disciplined civilization.
3. Granted ample time to the reconstituted Sith Empire to grow and become powerful enough to challenge and defeat any kind of superpower in the galaxy.
4. Worked on a secondary plan to eliminate all kinds of galactic threats with the power of the dark side, should his Empire fail.
5. Infiltrated the Jedi Order and Republic with his puppets to learn about their form and function prior to ordering the invasion.
But Vitiate's plans flopped due to same reasons; infighting/betrayals. It shall be noted that Vitiate went to extreme lengths to succeed in his plans (SWTORE offers excellent explanation of tactical brilliance and power of Vitiate) but The Force have its own will and their is no permanent for infighting/betrayals.
In-fact, Palpatine also fell due to betrayals; first from Vader and second from Luke.
So I don't see the reason to declare Sith preceding Sidious as failures just because they grew up in different circumstances then Sidious and made decisions accordingly. In-fact, it can be argued that Sidious is the luckiest Sith Lord in galactic history.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanks for the support.I didn't really know where to put this but this thread is basically the Vitiate thread anyway so: Skip to 27.00. "The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor at the end, and the Emperor's body does die.”
Looks like its almost certain that the person the Hero of Tython defeated at the end of the the game was indeed the Emperors real body (but he then strongly indicates that Vitiate probably survives). Also this thread has strong evidence that way. So yeah, great feat for the HoT and clears that up a bit imo.
And score another one for me. It looks increasingly as though the only reliable interpretation available for SWTOR is mine.
The SWTOR fanboys may kneel before me at any time.