Emperor Vitiate vs Imperial Strike Team

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Infighting/betrayals have led to downfall of even greatest Sith Lords in galactic history (Sidious included).

Vitiate didn't schemed to take over Republic for over 1300 years; do not make absurd claims. He had plans to attack the Republic but he waited for lot of reasons.

Yes, he waited, and plotted for the opportune moment to strike. And he failed.

1. Sidious grew up in the Republic; Plagueis deserves credit for recognizing Sidious's potential in the dark side and making him his apprentice.

Good for him.

2. Republic had disbanded its military forces after the (presumed) elimination of Sith.

No. It had disbanded its army, but it still possessed a navy powerful enough to make Nute Gunray shit his pants, whereas Palpatine started with no military whatsoever.

3. Republic became corrupted during a span of thousand years of peace as corporations grew powerful and organized crimes spread; Sidious took advantage of this corruption by participating in politics under guidance of Plagueis.

If you were a betting man, you'd bet on the thousand-year-old dictator with his own sizable empire and military, not on the guy trying to take advantage of a corrupt government.

4. Jedi Order grew out of touch of its natural ways during a span of thousands of years of peace. On top of this, the unbalancing of The Force by joint actions/rituals of Plagueis and Sidious further clouded the judgment of the Jedi. These developments led to disillusionment of Dooku and his eventual fall to the dark side.

Sidious and Plagueis unbalanced the Force through their own actions; it hardly counts as a circumstance in their favor.

5. Some systems of the Republic began to revolt due to wide-spread corruption and neglect and this made it possible for Sidious to support the separatists movement and sow seeds of civil war within the Republic. However, Republic needed its own army as well, so Sidious ordered the creation of a Republic military made of clones (real humans wouldn't need to die) to counter the threat of separatists.

Yes, he took advantage of opportune circumstances. Vitiate had plenty more. The Jedi Order was arguably closer to extinction than it had ever been in KOTOR II, for example, yet Vitiate had not developed an intelligence network of any repute, and so failed to capitalize on it.

Sidious was an EVIL GENIUS for sure but he had proper guidance, luck and fortune on his side as well. Due to combination of various factors, Sidious managed to transform the Republic in to a galactic Sith Empire. However, he also fell in a span of few decades afterwards.

At least he created one at all; Vitiate failed.

In comparison to Sidious, Vitiate was entirely self-made; he didn't needed politics and tutorship of another Sith Lord to plan his rise to great power. In-fact, Vitiate was also a natural leader; established a highly advanced civilization of his own, managed it well, kept it safe and shaped it in to a superpower.

Help from Ragnos aside, Vitiate had significantly more time and resources at his disposal than Palpatine did in the Prequel trilogy, and he still failed..

Vitiate challenged a well-prepared Republic actually and could still won, if some of his own followers had not betrayed him. Jadus, Sajar and Baras rebelled unfortunately. However, Vitiate had a back-up plan as well, should his Empire fail to destroy the Republic. But thanks to Scourge, this plan also failed. Nonetheless, the Empire of Vitiate was disciplined enough to prevent its breakup in his absence and continue its war effort against the Republic to destroy it. History tells us that the Republic actually won but this was not due to incompetence of Vitiate.

That he could not detect Scourge's treachery after 3 centuries speaks for itself.

Thanks to disastrous consequences of infighting/betrayals. Try to look at the whole picture instead of finding excuses to belittle Vitiate's accomplishments.

LOL, the fact that he failed is proof enough; the fault is on only him if he failed to adequately anticipate betrayals in an empire full of sith.

Keep in mind that Sidious also failed against what he described as "insignificant rebellion."

Yes, but he still succeeded in conquering the galaxy. Vitiate failed. What part of this is so difficult for you to understand?

For you

No, for anyone who realizes that vs. debates compare combat ability, not how many factoids SWL can parrot.

Sidious and Vitiate are in the higher echelons of individuals with galactic reach with their Force abilities.

Vader can choke people from light years away. Yoda, Obi Wan, ESB Luke, and practically every Jedi can sense events and even reach out to one another across the galaxy, even while in hyperspace.

Also, can you list some feats of Luke of galactic scale?

He calls all Jedi across the galaxy to convene in a meeting.

It is hinted in canon sources that Vitiate could pull off Nathema like feat with his own power. Wake-up and read all of my responses in this thread. I don't like to repeat same thing again and again.

"hinted" is why I don't bother to "wake-up", buddy. If Vitiate could do that, the war would already be over.

Correction: only 1 time but he would have taken Revan with him as well. Also, Vitiate cannot really die until his essence is contained.

He barely detected the droid's flamethrower, and had Revan moved swiftly could have died when he was knocked on his ass. Never mind the fact that Scourge's visions told him they stood a good chance of defeating him. Compare this to Sidious, against whom three of the greatest Jedi in history died in seconds.

And Sidious also knows essence transfer.

Sith Sorcery based talents/powers.

In-fact, Vitiate possessed all of the prerequisites to summon a Force Storm as well. Should he have learned about this technique, he would have wielded it like a PRO as well.

"should he have"? Too bad for you that "sith sorcery based talents/powers" doesn't compare to "ripping starfleets out of the sky, ravaging planets and teleporting beings light years".

Force storms >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vitiate. Deal with it.

Also, you better worry about potential retcon of DE lore by upcoming movies. If this happens, I will have the last laugh.

😆 Getting desperate here, are we?

Luke > Sidious according to fanon? I am not convinced.

According to fanon? Why the f*ck do you keep parroting this laughably retarded excuse of an argument? Luke > Sidious according to canon, just like how Sidious > Vitiate according to canon. The ironic part of your reply is that you are the one inventing a fanon where such canon sources don't exist. You are trying to argue against the evidence, not me.

I pointed out to you that even The Father and Abeloth have done nothing to match Palpatine's Force Storms. So I am not sure why you feel the need to highlight this ability of Sidious in discussions involving Vitiate. If Force Storm talent is the only criteria to determine power of an individual, then Sidious have no competition in the mythos.

False dilemmas are wonderful, aren't they? Abeloth has done plenty to rival Palpatine's Force storms. Vitiate has not. But I'm curious as to this line of reasoning; are you suggesting that my comparing actual feats and capabilities is not the optimal method of evaluating characters? Would you rather I use your method of making shit up and vaguely extrapolating from myths and legends?

Also, if you think of Vitiate to be beneath even TPM Sidious, you are deluding yourself. Do not expect me to accept your subjective assessments such as these without valid reasons.

Subjective assessments? 😆 It's canon, buddy. The ironic part is that your dismissal of these canons sources is where the subjectivity comes into play. So I suggest you stop arguing against yourself, as you do not only here, but every time you whine about my using "hyperbole", while you obsessively cling to Vitiate's "unleashing the full power of the dark side" in "its purest forms", while feigning indignation when someone calls you out on your quotes' utter irrelevance.

A Sith cannot rule over a Sith Empire without being the STRONGEST individual in it.

More red herrings from you; nobody denies that Vitiate is the most powerful individual in his empire. How does this put him above Palpatine's level? Oh...no, it doesn't.

"Oooh I can't wait til de is retconned then victory shall be miiiiine!"

Lmao.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yes, it is terribly inconvenient to be so extraordinarily intelligent, prodigiously endowed, and imbued with flawless lovemaking skill.

I am truly alone in this world.

"No-one can understand the torment I feel. The torment of being an extremely-attractive Star Wars nerd lusted after by pretty much every neck-beard I meet. Mine is indeed a tormented existence. Filled with torment. Torment and geeks. Geeks and their man-boobs. They torment me so."

I don't get it, Neph. I just don't get it.

He's initiating a mating ritual. Remember, it goes in the vagina, not the butt. Sodomy is a big no-no. rotjvader will have blasphemers' heads.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Also, you better worry about potential retcon of DE lore by upcoming movies. If this happens, I will have the last laugh.

If there's absolutely irreconcilable differences between the planned Sequels and the Post ROTJ EU, then the Post-ROTJ world will likely diverge into 2 different timelines, the movie-verse and the comic/novel-verse. Because I doubt all those novels and comics will just be completely written out of canon and stop being published.

But my guess is the films will steel the odd bit here and there from the EU, and the EU will try very hard after the release of the films to make it all fit together. - That's what's always happened with all the contradictions that have come about from the PT and TCW Animation.

But either way of all the Post-ROTJ work, DE actually has a very low chance of being retconned, simply because the Sequels will take place like 30 years later anyway.

But it's pretty funny you plan to come back in the next 3-9 years to have the last laugh.

Btw- If Luke is shown and stated to be the most powerful Jedi ever, and by a significant margin, in the sequels then I will come back and have the last laugh 😛

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, he waited, and plotted for the opportune moment to strike. And he failed.

Originally posted by Master Han
Good for him.

Originally posted by Master Han
No. It had disbanded its army, but it still possessed a navy powerful enough to make Nute Gunray shit his pants, whereas Palpatine started with no military whatsoever.

Originally posted by Master Han
If you were a betting man, you'd bet on the thousand-year-old dictator with his own sizable empire and military, not on the guy trying to take advantage of a corrupt government.

Originally posted by Master Han
Sidious and Plagueis unbalanced the Force through their own actions; it hardly counts as a circumstance in their favor.

I stated that this event clouded the judgment of the Jedi Order; prior to this, the Order was already in the process of loosing its touch with its natural ways. Try to understand a point instead of picking and choosing between the lines for argument sake.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, he took advantage of opportune circumstances. Vitiate had plenty more. The Jedi Order was arguably closer to extinction than it had ever been in KOTOR II, for example, yet Vitiate had not developed an intelligence network of any repute, and so failed to capitalize on it.

Originally posted by Master Han
At least he created one at all; Vitiate failed.

Originally posted by Master Han
Help from Ragnos aside, Vitiate had significantly more time and resources at his disposal than Palpatine did in the Prequel trilogy, and he still failed..

Also, Sidious was a honorable member of the Republic itself and took advantage of its weaknesses under guidance-ship of his mentor and circumstances around him. Vitiate was outside the Republic and challenged a well-prepared one in a war. No external power have managed to conquer the Republic in a war in galactic history; Sidious would not have succeeded in this manner as well.

Try to understand the differences in stories of Sidious and Vitiate before you pout about failures or the latter.

Originally posted by Master Han
That he could not detect Scourge's treachery after 3 centuries speaks for itself.

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, the fact that he failed is proof enough; the fault is on only him if he failed to adequately anticipate betrayals in an empire full of sith.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, but he still succeeded in conquering the galaxy. Vitiate failed. What part of this is so difficult for you to understand?

Originally posted by Master Han
No, for anyone who realizes that vs. debates compare combat ability, not how many factoids SWL can parrot.

Originally posted by Master Han
Vader can choke people from light years away. Yoda, Obi Wan, ESB Luke, and practically every Jedi can sense events and even reach out to one another across the galaxy, even while in hyperspace.

He calls all Jedi across the galaxy to convene in a meeting.

Sidious and Vitiate are in the higher echelons of individuals with galactic reach with their Force abilities.

Originally posted by Master Han
"hinted" is why I don't bother to "wake-up", buddy. If Vitiate could do that, the war would already be over.

Originally posted by Master Han
He barely detected the droid's flamethrower, and had Revan moved swiftly could have died when he was knocked on his ass. Never mind the fact that Scourge's visions told him they stood a good chance of defeating him. Compare this to Sidious, against whom three of the greatest Jedi in history died in seconds.

Originally posted by Master Han
And Sidious also knows essence transfer.

Originally posted by Master Han
"should he have"? Too bad for you that "sith sorcery based talents/powers" doesn't compare to "ripping starfleets out of the sky, ravaging planets and teleporting beings light years".

Force storms >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vitiate. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Master Han
😆 Getting desperate here, are we?

Originally posted by Master Han
According to fanon? Why the f*ck do you keep parroting this laughably retarded excuse of an argument? Luke > Sidious according to canon, just like how Sidious > Vitiate according to canon. The ironic part of your reply is that you are the one inventing a fanon where such canon sources don't exist. You are trying to argue against the evidence, not me.

Originally posted by Master Han
False dilemmas are wonderful, aren't they? Abeloth has done plenty to rival Palpatine's Force storms. Vitiate has not. But I'm curious as to this line of reasoning; are you suggesting that my comparing actual feats and capabilities is not the optimal method of evaluating characters? Would you rather I use your method of making shit up and vaguely extrapolating from myths and legends?

And no, it is you who is using Force Storm based argument to boast about Palpatine's supposed superiority over Vitiate. I reminded you that if this is the ONLY method to determine Palpatine's superiority then he is superior to all others.

Originally posted by Master Han
Subjective assessments? 😆 It's canon, buddy. The ironic part is that your dismissal of these canons sources is where the subjectivity comes into play. So I suggest you stop arguing against yourself, as you do not only here, but every time you whine about my using "hyperbole", while you obsessively cling to Vitiate's "unleashing the full power of the dark side" in "its purest forms", while feigning indignation when someone calls you out on your quotes' utter irrelevance.

"Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived."

In-fact, this is a vague statement. What does "who ever lived" is supposed to mean? The correct term is "in history."

Get the memo, you deluded Sidious wanker?

Originally posted by Master Han
More red herrings from you; nobody denies that Vitiate is the most powerful individual in his empire. How does this put him above Palpatine's level? Oh...no, it doesn't.

Red herring, your @ss.

To be honest, Vitiate was dumb to not attack the Republic after Kotor II even with a suspect Dark Council. The Jedi Order was basically extinct and the Republic was recovering from near-collapse. Furthermore, SWTORE makes it clear that the Kotor-era Republic military was utter dogs bollocks owing to an over-reliance on the Jedi Order. Vitiate would have steamrolled the galaxy in under a year.

However, his plan up to that point was great. Using the Mando's to weaken the Republic and splinter the Jedi was genius and his whole plan was the most successful attack on the Jedi Order in history.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious failed as well.

He succeeded in his goal of conquering the galaxy. He failed in his goal to achieve immortality. Vitiate failed at both.

And what did you learn?

That you love to parrot irrelevant factoids?

Show me proof of this navy.

Why do you suppose Gunray was so terrified of the Republic's intervention? Why do you suppose the senate meetings in AotC mention the creation of an army, but never a navy? They already had one. Various EU sources confirm that the Ruusaan Reformation, while disbanding the army, merely scaled down the navy and put it in the hands of the Judicial Department. As of TPM, it was still the most powerful military force in the galaxy by several orders of magnitude.

Your point is?

😆 I thought it would be obvious enough. My point is that Sidious faced longer odds than Vitiate, yet accomplished more.

Do you have an IQ of a 2 year old?

I stated that this event clouded the judgment of the Jedi Order; prior to this, the Order was already in the process of loosing its touch with its natural ways. Try to understand a point instead of picking and choosing between the lines for argument sake.

How does this nullify the duo's unprecedented feat of unbalancing the Force itself? How does your constant insistence in repeating Sidious's taking advantage of opportune circumstances change the fact that Vitiate had far more?

Revan prevented Vitiate from capitalizing on this opportunity.

Because Vitiate had only two people to report on the Republic at that point. He had a vital opportunity to wipe out the Republic and the Jedi, and failed.

And Vitiate did not create a Sith Empire, correct? 🙄

Creating an isolated sith empire by hiding from the Jedi and the Republic doesn't compare to actually taking over the galaxy and forming the most powerful and dominant empire that ever existed.

Ragnos is a non-factor in Vitiate's story.

He dubbed him Lord Vitiate.

Also, Sidious was a honorable member of the Republic itself and took advantage of its weaknesses under guidance-ship of his mentor and circumstances around him. Vitiate was outside the Republic and challenged a well-prepared one in a war. No external power have managed to conquer the Republic in a war in galactic history; Sidious would not have succeeded in this manner as well.

Try to understand the differences in stories of Sidious and Vitiate before you pout about failures or the latter.

"and your point is?" nonetheless suggests that you were either too stupid to understand a laughably simpleton analogy, or that you conceded that Sidious faced longer odds than Vitiate.

And what about Sidious's failure to determine Vader's treachery?

He didn't suppose Vader could possibly be moved by compassion. But he was well aware of Vader's dark side intentions, and can even read his thoughts on multiple occasions.

Vitiate have effectively dealt with lot of betrayals during his time. However, wars can create situations in which things can go out of hand. No individual is infallible.

Parroting age old tautologies doesn't change the fact that Palpatine faced longer odds and accomplished more.

I am not disputing Sidious's success but it is important to understand the differences between stories of Sidious and Vitiate. You cannot use Vitiate's failure to conquer the Republic as an excuse to boast about supposed superiority of Sidious since Sidious haven't been tested in ways like Vitiate have been.

Really? Please, feel free to express the times that Vitiate has been "tested" to a greater degree than Sidious, that he overcame primarily through his own skill.

Understand, you BLIND Sidious wanker?

Me, a Sidious wanker? 😆 Gideon, Intrepid and plenty of others would disagree with you. I hold that Windu legitimately defeated him, that Yoda was superior to him, and that Luke is above even his DE incarnation. You are the one who insists on blindly standing by your favorite TOR videogame against logic, reason, sanity, canon, and all your other long hated enemies.

Discussions can go in any direction, depending upon the comments made in the threads. This thread have nothing to do with Sidious but it turned in to a Vitiate bashing and failure fest. Is this my fault too?

No, it's your fault that you try to show off your obsessive database of Vitiate quotes to prove a point that has no connection to said quotes whatosever.

Sidious is more powerful than Vitiate. Sidious is a far superior duelist. Sidious has greater combat feats. Sidious would win in a confrontation.

Therefore my statement:

Sidious and Vitiate are in the higher echelons of individuals with galactic reach with their Force abilities.

So you made the argument that Vitiate's Force ability had galactic reach...to prove that he was among the more powerful of those (read: almost everyone) with galactic reach? 😆

War would be over by destroying a planet? How exactly?

Coruscant ring a bell?

1. Barely or not, Vitiate still blunted its firepower; indicating that he is good enough to handle some surprises as well.

Good for him. He still struggled immensely when faced against a dynamic strike team that didn't stand in one place.

2. Revan was moving swiftly but Vitiate was not slow either.

LOL, so what? He got knocked on his ass. He was clearly vulnerable.

3. Scourge's visions included possibilities of defeat of Vitiate but the over-all picture was grim. Therefore, Scourge decided to not take the risk.

Don't pull shit out of your ass; it's never stated that the overall situation was "grim", just that the HoT's defeating Vitiate was the most likely possibility.

4. By his blade; yeah great. And what about Vitiate utterly dominating 4 of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order?

Mace Windu wasn't on that strike team.

I know

So more of your useless parroting?

Vitiate could inflict planetary-scale devastation with his Sith Sorcery based talents and this pales in comparison to destructive capabilities of Force Storm? 🙄

Yes, it does. He needs sith sorcery to do that. Sidious can do it by getting angry.

That time is coming for you.

ROFLAMO - so your trump card is to tell us to wait until 2015. so that you'll win the argument? 😆

Proof of Luke > Sidious?

He defeated him in a duel by having some of his potential unlocked. He certainly would have unlocked said potential by LotF.

Can you list these accomplishments of Abeloth?

Force psychosis, appearing in multiple places at the same time, fooling Luke Skywalker with illusions, shrugging off a Force push powerful enough to "knock a frigate out of orbit", continuing to battle despite having had huge blaster bolts and lightsaber bolts seared into her, melting a city just by getting angry (Palpatine still had to develop a new technique) and, allegedly, having the power to cause galaxy scale destruction, etc.

Nothing Vitiate has ever done compares to Force storms. Deal with it.

And no, it is you who is using Force Storm based argument to boast about Palpatine's supposed superiority over Vitiate. I reminded you that if this is the ONLY method to determine Palpatine's superiority then he is superior to all others.

Can you not read? I already called you out on your false dilemma. The only characters more powerful than Palpatine have feats to match his, Vitiate does not.

Luceno is not in the position to determine relative position of Vitiate in the grand scheme of things in the mythos. He can wank about Plagueis as much as he likes but he was reluctant to declare Plagueis as most powerful within the story-telling canon component of the book itself.

Actually, Sidious seriously ponders in the prologue the possibility that Plagueis was more powerful in the dark side than anyone that had lived before him.

Also, if we are to accept his decision then Plagueis > Sidious as well because he included the word "ever" in the most powerful statement he forgot to get published in the backcovers of lot of prints of book of Plagueis.

No, he's the most powerful until Sidious himself surpassed him. Just like how Yoda is the most powerful until Luke comes along.

Get the memo, you deluded Sidious wanker?

That statement is relevant for the topic; not Sidious.

Red herring, your @ss.

You know, with your constant pandering of irrelevant factoids and continued persistence of absurd double standards, from accusing some statements of "hyperbole" while parroting "full power of the dark side" to complaining about "fanon" with regards to mentions of canonical statements you deny as a result of your own subjective fetishes, I'm this close to putting you on ignore.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To be honest, Vitiate was dumb to not attack the Republic after Kotor II even with a suspect Dark Council. The Jedi Order was basically extinct and the Republic was recovering from near-collapse. Furthermore, SWTORE makes it clear that the Kotor-era Republic military was utter dogs bollocks owing to an over-reliance on the Jedi Order. Vitiate would have steamrolled the galaxy in under a year.

However, his plan up to that point was great. Using the Mando's to weaken the Republic and splinter the Jedi was genius and his whole plan was the most successful attack on the Jedi Order in history.

Didn't Revan's mental influence stop him from attacking?

Yes. I'd forgotten he was influencing him that early.

Order 66 was the most successful attack against the Jedi, fatass.

Originally posted by Master Han
He succeeded in his goal of conquering the galaxy. He failed in his goal to achieve immortality. Vitiate failed at both.

"So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause." (Padme)

In addition, both Sidious and Vitiate had achieved immortality; they could live forever. However, Vitiate was extremely close to achieving invincibility as well but was stopped during the war.

Originally posted by Master Han
That you love to parrot irrelevant factoids?

This thread involves discussion about how much of a failure Vitiate is. My contention is that this is a shortsighted assessment. Like every notable character, Vitiate have history of failures and successes.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why do you suppose Gunray was so terrified of the Republic's intervention? Why do you suppose the senate meetings in AotC mention the creation of an army, but never a navy? They already had one. Various EU sources confirm that the Ruusaan Reformation, while disbanding the army, merely scaled down the navy and put it in the hands of the Judicial Department. As of TPM, it was still the most powerful military force in the galaxy by several orders of magnitude.

Also, the Republic had very limited offensive firepower of its own during his time:

The defeat of the Sith and the Ruusan Reformations brought centuries of peace and economic prosperity to the Republic, and the wise leadership of several extraordinary Chancellors rebuilt galactic society and fueled renewed exploration and colonization of the galaxy's northern and southern reaches.

But while the Republic withstood challenges such as the brief resurgence of the Mandalorians, its prosperity masked flaws and fault lines, particularly between the worlds of the Core, Colonies, and Inner Rim, and the planets farther out. The abolition of a central military may have curbed abuses of power, but it left outlying systems and sectors struggling to defend themselves against pirates, slavers, and the ambitions of small-time despots. Many worlds turned to megacorps and petty tyrants for protection, trading freedom and prosperity for security.

The rule of law was often taken for granted in the Core but theoretical on the Rim. Wealthy worlds colonized new planets in the Rim with scant regard for the rights of indigenous species, and the megacorps treated unexplored space as a private preserve for commercial exploitation. Sometimes such exploitation was so blatant that the Senate stirred itself to action: In 704 BBY it ended the disastrous experiment in corporate administration known as the Outer Expansion Zone after civil unrest gripped the Expansion Region north of Coruscant. But particularly in the Outer Rim, central authority was often weak to the point of being nonexistent, and abuses went unchecked.

In the centuries before the civil war that would spell the end of the Republic, swaths of the galaxy fell into economic stagnation and decay. The Senate made two significant moves in 124 BBY. First, it declared the entire Outer Rim and parts of the Mid Rim a free-trade zone in a bid to jump-start economic development and rebuild ties between the Rim and the Core. Second, it granted a number of megacorps the status of functional constituencies, granting them Senate representation. These efforts did spur economic development, but the cost was a further diminution of central power, and even fewer protections for poor, remote worlds. The chief beneficiaries, meanwhile, were the Trade Federation and the other megacorps. Rimmers saw raw material taken away from their worlds and returned as goods they couldn't afford, while the Trade Federation cannily turned its economic might into political power, buying up blocs of votes in the Senate.

By the final decades of the Republic, it was clear that some kind of reckoning was at hand. Large portions of the Rim were abandoned to the growing might of the Hutts or exploited by wealthy, corrupt Senators, while in the Core the deal-making was more mannered but equally crooked. In many systems megacorps were the only law, and they were concerned with profits, not the rights of citizens, environmental protections, or economic development. As chaos spread, powerful sectors and megacorps first chafed at the limits placed on their military capabilities, then began to ignore these ancient laws the Republic could no longer enforce.

A movement of determined Senators, who took the name Reformists, sought to rekindle the spirit of Ruusan and check the megacorps' power. But many of their fellow Senators were either in the pocket of the megacorps, or too frightened to stand up to the commercial giants. The Senatorial faction known as the Militarists, meanwhile, sought to restore order by reviving a centralized military. But many Reformists were suspicious of their motives, and refused common cause with them.

The Republic began to fragment. A terrorist group known as the Nebula Front began attacking Trade Federation shipping, intensifying the cartel's calls that it be allowed greater freedom to defend itself. A manufactured bacta shortage led to a struggle among pirates, smugglers, and Republic paramilitaries known as the Stark Hyperspace War, with the Jedi and the Trade Federation caught in the middle. Uprisings blazed up on the edges of the galaxy, and elsewhere long-buried animosities began to smolder.

In the 30s BBY the Reformists sought to tax many Rim trade routes, undoing the tax advantages granted a century before to the likes of the Trade Federation, Corporate Alliance, and the InterGalactic Banking Clan. In return for accepting renewed taxation, the Reformists proposed allowing the Trade Federation to expand its defensive forces.

What the Reformists couldn't know was that when its profits were threatened, the Trade Federation would use its new military capabilities to blockade a Republic world. And no one knew that the galaxy's tensions were being stoked by a shadowy mastermind whose goal was to destroy the Republic itself.

Source: Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare

As apparent from this informative revelation, Trade Federation arguably became the most powerful military faction within the Republic. Episode I depicts a military contingent of Trade Federation in action on Naboo. Therefore, your assessment is incorrect but mine is correct.

Originally posted by Master Han
😆 I thought it would be obvious enough. My point is that Sidious faced longer odds than Vitiate, yet accomplished more.

Sidious: 82 BBY - 11 ABY
Vitiate: 5113 BBY - Unknown (Over 1300 years of history)

Also, Sidious didn't exactly accomplish more then Vitiate;

1. Sidious didn't create a civilization of his own; he transformed an existing one. Vitiate created a new civilization which is an equally impressive accomplishment, if not more.
2. Sidious virtually exterminated the Jedi Order once; Vitiate also accomplished the same once (KoTOR era wars are the products of his influence).

Anything else?

Originally posted by Master Han
How does this nullify the duo's unprecedented feat of unbalancing the Force itself? How does your constant insistence in repeating Sidious's taking advantage of opportune circumstances change the fact that Vitiate had far more?

I pointed out that this feat clouded the judgment/actions of the Jedi Order even further during the era of peace. Did I said anything about the nature of the feat? Try to focus on the context and whole point instead of nitpicking statements from within.

Originally posted by Master Han
Because Vitiate had only two people to report on the Republic at that point. He had a vital opportunity to wipe out the Republic and the Jedi, and failed.

Revan's intervention angered Vitiate to such a degree that not just he developed Abeloth like capabilities to improve his safeguard but planned to destroy the whole galaxy with the power of the dark side to complete his ultimate transformation in to an omnipotent entity. In addition, Vitiate awarded Revan with a punishment worse then death by keeping the powerful Jedi Master imprisoned in a horrific captive device for 300 years and siphoned energies from him during this whole time.

Originally posted by Master Han
Creating an isolated sith empire by hiding from the Jedi and the Republic doesn't compare to actually taking over the galaxy and forming the most powerful and dominant empire that ever existed.

The Great Hyperspace War left the Sith in a dire situation; they had lost their power due to infighting and they were on the run due to being hunted by the Jedi and Republic forces. Vitiate was the only dark side practitioner in the galaxy who managed to save the Sith from extinction and organized them in to a major power with passage of time. By all accounts, this was an extremely difficult and challenging task. To give you an idea, the Sith spent decades on the space alone during their attempts to flee detection of their enemies.

Originally posted by Master Han
He dubed him Lord Vitiate.

Originally posted by Master Han
"and your point is?" nonetheless suggests that you were either too stupid to understand a laughably simpleton analogy, or that you conceded that Sidious faced longer odds than Vitiate.

Originally posted by Master Han
He didn't suppose Vader could possibly be moved by compassion. But he was well aware of Vader's dark side intentions, and can even read his thoughts on multiple occasions.

Originally posted by Master Han
Parroting age old tautologies doesn't change the fact that Palpatine faced longer odds and accomplished more.

Originally posted by Master Han
Really? Please, feel free to express the times that Vitiate has been "tested" to a greater degree than Sidious, that he overcame primarily through his own skill.

1. Rebellious Dark Councils (2 in total)
2. Thousands of traitors within the Sith Empire
3. Several wars
4. Assassination attempts from many Jedi

Originally posted by Master Han
Me, a Sidious wanker? 😆 Gideon, Intrepid and plenty of others would disagree with you. I hold that Windu legitimately defeated him, that Yoda was superior to him, and that Luke is above even his DE incarnation. You are the one who insists on blindly standing by your favorite TOR videogame against logic, reason, sanity, canon, and all your other long hated enemies.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, it's your fault that you try to show off your obsessive database of Vitiate quotes to prove a point that has no connection to said quotes whatosever.

Originally posted by Master Han
Sidious is more powerful than Vitiate. Sidious is a far superior duelist. Sidious has greater combat feats. Sidious would win in a confrontation.

Originally posted by Master Han
So you made the argument that Vitiate's Force ability had galactic reach...to prove that he was among the more powerful of those (read: almost everyone) with galactic reach? 😆

Originally posted by Master Han
Coruscant ring a bell?

Originally posted by Master Han
Good for him. He still struggled immensely when faced against a dynamic strike team that didn't stand in one place.

Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, so what? He got knocked on his ass. He was clearly vulnerable.

Originally posted by Master Han
Don't pull shit out of your ass; it's never stated that the overall situation was "grim", just that the HoT's defeating Vitiate was the most likely possibility.

Originally posted by Master Han
Mace Windu wasn't on that strike team.

Originally posted by Master Han
So more of your useless parroting?

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, it does. He needs sith sorcery to do that. Sidious can do it by getting angry.

Originally posted by Master Han
ROFLAMO - so your trump card is to tell us to wait until 2015. so that you'll win the argument? 😆

Originally posted by Master Han
He defeated him in a duel by having some of his potential unlocked. He certainly would have unlocked said potential by LotF.

Sidious (DE) > peak Luke

Originally posted by Master Han
Force psychosis, appearing in multiple places at the same time, fooling Luke Skywalker with illusions, shrugging off a Force push powerful enough to "knock a frigate out of orbit", continuing to battle despite having had huge blaster bolts and lightsaber bolts seared into her, melting a city just by getting angry (Palpatine still had to develop a new technique) and, allegedly, having the power to cause galaxy scale destruction, etc.

Nothing Vitiate has ever done compares to Force storms. Deal with it.

The rest of the feats indicate that Abeloth had considerable galactic level Force abilities; however, on individual basis, none of these are as impressive as Force Storm.

Now learn a thing or two about galactic level Force abilities of Vitiate:-

He siphoned energies of countless souls/beings from multiple planets (Medriaas; Dromund Kaas; and Maelstrom region); he prevented aging and decay of his original body/avatars with this feat; this kind of power also made it possible for him to inflict planetary-scale destruction single-handedly, if he wanted to.

In addition, he controlled all of his puppets on galactic scale which numbered in thousands with his telepathic abilities, granting him additional galactic level reach with combative actions. He also masked the presence of all of his puppets embedded within the Jedi Order and Republic by empowering the leader of his puppets (First Son). Simultaneously, he engaged in combative actions as well and also continuously manipulated the environment of Dromund Kaas.

So the summary is like this:-

Siphoning energies from countless beings on multiple planets + continuous prevention of decay and aging of original body/avatars + galactic level telepathic powers in action (additional firepower) + influencing the environment of Dromund Kaas + combative or mass-scale destructive actions

---

You think that Abeloth animating many Avatars simultaneously is impressive?

Well, Vitiate not just could perform lot of actions simultaneously by himself but he had additional firepower under his disposal with his Children (or puppets) whom he also controlled.

Did I ever mention before that Vitiate possessed Abeloth like capabilities? I guess so.

"The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen."

Makes sense.

Originally posted by Master Han
Can you not read? I already called you out on your false dilemma. The only characters more powerful than Palpatine have feats to match his, Vitiate does not.

Originally posted by Master Han
Actually, Sidious seriously ponders in the prologue the possibility that Plagueis was more powerful in the dark side than anyone that had lived before him.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, he's the most powerful until Sidious himself surpassed him. Just like how Yoda is the most powerful until Luke comes along.

So either open your mind for all of the lore or drop your assumption regarding relative positions of Plagueis and Luke in the context of power within the mythos.

Originally posted by Master Han
You know, with your constant pandering of irrelevant factoids and continued persistence of absurd double standards, from accusing some statements of "hyperbole" while parroting "full power of the dark side" to complaining about "fanon" with regards to mentions of canonical statements you deny as a result of your own subjective fetishes, I'm this close to putting you on ignore.

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I heard it's all spicy and stuff.

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You heard correct! People here cook lot of tasty stuff. Though cooking quality varies from individual to individual.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He siphoned energies of countless souls/beings from multiple planets (Medriaas; Dromund Kaas; and Maelstrom region);

Really? Never heard of him draining Kaas and the Maelstrom region.