Also it looks like the Hero of Tython is likely to be canonically darkside, through a combination of 3 factors:
1. Scourges Vision: "Jedi, shining with the Force, lined up to destroy him. All were swept aside. Revan and the Exile were cast at my feet. Then out of the shadows, one Jedi emerged to cut the Emperor down. That Jedi wore your face.
In my vision I took a crown from the Emperors head. It ended when you held his power in your hands."
This vision implies that the Hero of Tython will take Vitiates power and Empire for her own.
2. Scourge's comment: "Many know your name. Some whisper it, others shout it. I alone recognise what it means. You're strong and touched by darkness. This is unexpected. An advantage? Possibly." When he first sees you Scourge comments that you posses darkness inside you, regardless of your actual alignment.
3. The Star Cabal: Most damning in terms of actual canon, at the end of the Imperial Agent story, in their meeting the Star Cabal say that 'Tol Braga is dead'. Since they're the most knowledgeable beings in the GALAXY at that point in terms of events its safe to trust their word. This heavily implies a darkside Knight, since the lightside version sends him back to Tython, whereas the darkside versions are to either kill him or mindfvck him and tell him to go kill as many Sith as he can before being killed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also it looks like the Hero of Tython is likely to be canonically darkside, through a combination of 3 factors:1. [b]Scourges Vision
: "Jedi, shining with the Force, lined up to destroy him. All were swept aside. Revan and the Exile were cast at my feet. Then out of the shadows, one Jedi emerged to cut the Emperor down. That Jedi wore your face.In my vision I took a crown from the Emperors head. It ended when you held his power in your hands."
This vision implies that the Hero of Tython will take Vitiates power and Empire for her own.
2. Scourge's comment: "Many know your name. Some whisper it, others shout it. I alone recognise what it means. You're strong and touched by darkness. This is unexpected. An advantage? Possibly." When he first sees you Scourge comments that you posses darkness inside you, regardless of your actual alignment.
3. The Star Cabal: Most damning in terms of actual canon, at the end of the Imperial Agent story, in their meeting the Star Cabal say that 'Tol Braga is dead'. Since they're the most knowledgeable beings in the GALAXY at that point in terms of events its safe to trust their word. This heavily implies a darkside Knight, since the lightside version sends him back to Tython, whereas the darkside versions are to either kill him or mindfvck him and tell him to go kill as many Sith as he can before being killed. [/B]
I doubt the Jedi Knight is dark side, mate. Scourge clearly has his own agenda when dealing with HoT and is likely trying to put dreams of grandeur into his head. The Star Cabal thing can be easily addressed by the timing of the Agent Storyline.
The Agent storyline takes place before the Sith Warrior story ends because the power plays of Baras, Vowrawn and Thanaton are mentioned as if they are still in motion during their Corellia arc. The JK story ends after the SW's defeat of Baras because you get he communique on the attack of Dromond Kaas and the death of the Emperor after you strike him down. So during this time, Tol Braga would have likely vanished for months aboard the Emperor's station. The Order itself believed the JK and that strike team to be dead until the Knight broke free of the Emperor's control.
More about Vitiate; he is also responsible for starting wars that led to collapse of the Jedi Order and a crippled Republic:
Mandalorian Wars*
Jedi Civil War**
Sith Triumvirate***
*Vitiate influenced Mandalore (The Ultimate) to attack the Republic.
**Vitiate influenced Revan and Malak to attack the Republic.
***This is the product of Jedi Civil War.
Then Revan made his move and delayed the invasion of the Republic by the reconstituted Sith Empire; this development paved way for the Republic to regain its strength and reform its defensive and offensive structures.
All of this information is in SWTORE. People should buy this book and also consult the sources which I have listed in my previous response.
@Neph
That is very interesting revelation. HoT might turn out to be like Revan perhaps.
Originally posted by The Merchant
Ok, since I feel like this might be the time to ask. I've heard claims after Vitiate did his ritual on Nathema he no longer needed to do rituals to replicate that feat and could do it to any planets, but decided to do a ritual that was Galaxy wide.
The aforementioned characters hinted that he may destroy planet after planet with his mastery of the dark side, should he desire. However, this was strategy was not feasible because of following reasons:
1. Risk factor (adversaries would multiply; Republic would notice)
2. Vitiate's nihilist nature would not be well-received even by his own followers (Vitiate attempted to conceal his Medriaas based history for a reason)
3. Destroying planet after planet would be a long and tedious process.
Therefore, Vitiate forged a master plan; to unleash dark side power on galactic scale to accomplish his ultimate objectives.
Keep in mind that SWTORE notes that Vitiate's capacity as a Force-user vastly increased after his first transformation. Keep in mind that Vitiate was already supremely strong in the dark side prior to his transformation.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
hasn't been proven, has never performed such a feat
Though I have come to know that he planned to destroy Voss due to Sel-Makor.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I doubt the Jedi Knight is dark side, mate. Scourge clearly has his own agenda when dealing with HoT and is likely trying to put dreams of grandeur into his head. The Star Cabal thing can be easily addressed by the timing of the Agent Storyline.The Agent storyline takes place before the Sith Warrior story ends because the power plays of Baras, Vowrawn and Thanaton are mentioned as if they are still in motion during their Corellia arc. The JK story ends after the SW's defeat of Baras because you get he communique on the attack of Dromond Kaas and the death of the Emperor after you strike him down. So during this time, Tol Braga would have likely vanished for months aboard the Emperor's station. The Order itself believed the JK and that strike team to be dead until the Knight broke free of the Emperor's control.
Don't ruin my fanon for me! :<
Scourge may be lying, but it still seems unlikely that he'd start talking about your inner darkness as soon as he meets you if he is. I just don't see it.
Theres no way the Star Cabal would be deluded into thinking Braga was dead considering he and the rest of the Strike Team have been running around throughout Act III, especially Tol Braga on Corellia which is the center of their plan. Besides, they're talking about it like its a recent development. The timeline stuff is always screwy. Even if the finale of the Knight is after the Agent, that doesn't mean her beating Tol Braga is.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
vitiate being superior to Luke due to being an "immortal" is heavily bias tbh, despite his claims of just "giving credit where it's due." and due to the fact that many of the people whom side with palps > vit are considered "PT fanboys"
Vitiate have;
1. Immortal condition (can switch from body to body)
2. Galactic reach with his Force abilities
3. Planet-busting capabilities
4. Most impressive combat record
5. Extraordinarily lethal offensive powers in his arsenal of talents
Point is that Vitiate does have sufficient credentials to hold his own against Luke and Sidious (DE). To be more precise, defeat Luke and stalemate Sidious (DE).
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As far as this contest is concerned, Vitiate is on a whole new level in comparison to Malgus. Keep in mind that the former managed to rule supreme over a Sith Empire for over a millennium for some solid reasons. Vitiate may just mind-hax the Imperial Strike Team into submission.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
More about Vitiate; he is also responsible for starting wars that led to collapse of the Jedi Order and a crippled Republic:
He still failed in the end. He could not defeat the Republic after 1300 years of scheming. Sidious toppled it in...what, 40?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Its not like as if Sidious magically became the most successful Sith Lord in history. Lot of developments led to his rise and paved way for his success; the Sith that preceded him deserve credit as well.
He nonetheless succeeded with fewer resources, against greater odds, in lesser time. Vitiate also had the element of surprise, millenia of planning, and his various "children" or whatever. And he failed.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Immortal condition (can switch from body to body)
Irrelevant in vs. debate.
2. Galactic reach with his Force abilities
😉 Luke and Palpatine are among the numerous Jedi with "galactic reach" Force abilities. One could argue that Palpatine and Plagueis's unbalancing of the Force was universal. Again, you continue to parrot irrelevant filler.
3. Planet-busting capabilities
With rituals. Sidious can do it just by channeling his hate.
4. Most impressive combat record
LOL, no? He almost dies on three occasions in his fight against Revan's posse. His tactics were abysmal.
5. Extraordinarily lethal offensive powers in his arsenal of talents
Like Force storms?
Point is that Vitiate does have sufficient credentials to hold his own against Luke and Sidious (DE). To be more precise, defeat Luke and stalemate Sidious (DE).
No, we've been through this before. Firstly, Luke > Sidious. Secondly, Vitiate has done NOTHING to match Palpatine's Force storms. He doesn't compare tp TPM Sidious, let alone the one that can ravage planets and rip apart entire starfleets.
As far as this contest is concerned, Vitiate is on a whole new level in comparison to Malgus. Keep in mind that the former managed to rule supreme over a Sith Empire for over a millennium for some solid reasons. Vitiate may just mind-hax the Imperial Strike Team into submission.
More red herrings from you; how long Vitiate ruled his empire isn't remotely relevant to the point. By that logic, the Old Republic would defeat the Galactic Empire in a war, because it's been around longer...
Originally posted by Master Han
He still failed in the end. He could not defeat the Republic after 1300 years of scheming. Sidious toppled it in...what, 40?
Vitiate didn't schemed to take over Republic for over 1300 years; do not make absurd claims. He had plans to attack the Republic but he waited for lot of reasons.
Also, you cannot understand the difference between the circumstances surrounding Sidious and Vitiate?
About Sidious:-
1. Sidious grew up in the Republic; Plagueis deserves credit for recognizing Sidious's potential in the dark side and making him his apprentice.
2. Republic had disbanded its military forces after the (presumed) elimination of Sith.
3. Republic became corrupted during a span of thousand years of peace as corporations grew powerful and organized crimes spread; Sidious took advantage of this corruption by participating in politics under guidance of Plagueis.
4. Jedi Order grew out of touch of its natural ways during a span of thousands of years of peace. On top of this, the unbalancing of The Force by joint actions/rituals of Plagueis and Sidious further clouded the judgment of the Jedi. These developments led to disillusionment of Dooku and his eventual fall to the dark side.
5. Some systems of the Republic began to revolt due to wide-spread corruption and neglect and this made it possible for Sidious to support the separatists movement and sow seeds of civil war within the Republic. However, Republic needed its own army as well, so Sidious ordered the creation of a Republic military made of clones (real humans wouldn't need to die) to counter the threat of separatists.
---
Sidious was an EVIL GENIUS for sure but he had proper guidance, luck and fortune on his side as well. Due to combination of various factors, Sidious managed to transform the Republic in to a galactic Sith Empire. However, he also fell in a span of few decades afterwards.
In comparison to Sidious, Vitiate was entirely self-made; he didn't needed politics and tutorship of another Sith Lord to plan his rise to great power. In-fact, Vitiate was also a natural leader; established a highly advanced civilization of his own, managed it well, kept it safe and shaped it in to a superpower.
Vitiate challenged a well-prepared Republic actually and could still won, if some of his own followers had not betrayed him. Jadus, Sajar and Baras rebelled unfortunately. However, Vitiate had a back-up plan as well, should his Empire fail to destroy the Republic. But thanks to Scourge, this plan also failed. Nonetheless, the Empire of Vitiate was disciplined enough to prevent its breakup in his absence and continue its war effort against the Republic to destroy it. History tells us that the Republic actually won but this was not due to incompetence of Vitiate.
Originally posted by Master Han
He nonetheless succeeded with fewer resources, against greater odds, in lesser time. Vitiate also had the element of surprise, millenia of planning, and his various "children" or whatever. And he failed.
Keep in mind that Sidious also failed against what he described as "insignificant rebellion."
Originally posted by Master Han
Irrelevant in vs. debate.
Originally posted by Master Han
😉 Luke and Palpatine are among the numerous Jedi with "galactic reach" Force abilities. One could argue that Palpatine and Plagueis's unbalancing of the Force was universal. Again, you continue to parrot irrelevant filler.
Also, can you list some feats of Luke of galactic scale?
Originally posted by Master Han
With rituals. Sidious can do it just by channeling his hate.
Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, no? He almost dies on three occasions in his fight against Revan's posse. His tactics were abysmal.
Originally posted by Master Han
Like Force storms?
In-fact, Vitiate possessed all of the prerequisites to summon a Force Storm as well. Should he have learned about this technique, he would have wielded it like a PRO as well.
Also, you better worry about potential retcon of DE lore by upcoming movies. If this happens, I will have the last laugh.
Originally posted by Master Han
No, we've been through this before. Firstly, Luke > Sidious. Secondly, Vitiate has done NOTHING to match Palpatine's Force storms. He doesn't compare tp TPM Sidious, let alone the one that can ravage planets and rip apart entire starfleets.
I pointed out to you that even The Father and Abeloth have done nothing to match Palpatine's Force Storms. So I am not sure why you feel the need to highlight this ability of Sidious in discussions involving Vitiate. If Force Storm talent is the only criteria to determine power of an individual, then Sidious have no competition in the mythos.
Also, if you think of Vitiate to be beneath even TPM Sidious, you are deluding yourself. Do not expect me to accept your subjective assessments such as these without valid reasons.
Originally posted by Master Han
More red herrings from you; how long Vitiate ruled his empire isn't remotely relevant to the point. By that logic, the Old Republic would defeat the Galactic Empire in a war, because it's been around longer...