The Greatest Foe the darkness had ever known...

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
he is a monster with the lightsaber though. it required an extremely potent amp on mace windu's part just to even the playing field between him and sidious.

You may want to reread the Revenge of the Sith novelization and "Shatterpoint".

Mace is on an "even playing field" with Sidious just utilizing his regular lightsaber abilities (Vaapad). And just for clarification: Vaapad allows Mace to utilize his own inner darkness and does nothing else. And there, it would have been a draw between those two. But then, one would need to ask, if Depa Billaba, also utilizing Vaapad, would have been capable of killing Sidious in a duel, because Mace notes her bladework was better than his own. (Although, this is most likely one of Mace's humble statements regarding his own skill in comparison to that of fellow Jedi).

Then we add Mace's Shatterpoint ability. And that puts Mace ahead of Sidious. Which was why the Sith Lord did end up disarmed, on the ground, lightsaber at his throat and at the mercy of the Jedi Master. So why wouldn't Yoda, generally seen as the superior of Windu, be capable of archiving the same?

One could make a - probably convincing - argument, utilizing Yoda's own thoughts from the RotS novel. He isn't capable of defeating the Sith Lord, because the usual tactic (putting once own light against the Darkness of the opposing Sith) does fail and Windu did utilize his dark side against Palpatine. But then, one would open the way for speculation, regarding the question, how Sidious would fare against similiar alligned opponents (namely: other Sith Lords).

Originally posted by Nai
Sidious never was the "fighter type" of a Sith Lord, and I find it rather irritating, that people feel the need to convince others, that he is a monster with a lightsaber in hand.

😐 Except that he was the "fighter type" of a sith lord, to the same extent that he was a master Force user. In addition to his obviously fantastic performances against Yoda, a legendary lightsaber duelist (and a confirmed master of every style), and earlier against three of the greatest swordsmen in the order's history, Nick Gillard comments that Sidious has mastered "every lightsaber style", a comment corroborated by his training Darth Maul in juyo, as well as various other combat areas such as teras kasi, and his Emperor's hand.

TCW further reveals that he can utilize jar’kai, to the extent of toying with Maul and Oppress.

Originally posted by Master Han
😐 Except that he was the "fighter type" of a sith lord, to the same extent that he was a master Force user.

Hardly.
I already cited "Darth Plagueis" as reference for the reluctance of Plagueis to utilize the weapon and the real extend of Sidious lightsaber training. Compared to the likes of Dooku and even Maul, who focused on armed combat, Sidious certainly lacks formal training in that department. And compared to most Jedi, who - apparently - spared on a regular basis and utilized the weapon in combat, he lacks experience.

In addition to his obviously fantastic performances against Yoda, a legendary lightsaber duelist (and a confirmed master of every style), and earlier against three of the greatest swordsmen in the order's history, Nick Gillard comments that Sidious has mastered "every lightsaber style", a comment corroborated by his training Darth Maul in juyo, as well as various other combat areas such as teras kasi, and his Emperor's hand.

I can't believe, that this bullshit is still flung around here.

First: His fantastic performance against Yoda lasted for about 30 seconds before he - apparently - lost his lightsaber, indicating that he is vastly inferior to the Jedi Master in that particular art. The same holds true for his duel with Mace Windu, where he ends up on the ground and disarmed in about a minute. What happens when real "equals" clash, can be seen when Obi-Wan duels Anakin. But in terms of lightsaber ability, Sidious isn't a match for Yoda or Mace - demonstrated on screen.

Second: His performance against the Jedi strike team is also not based on his technical lightsaber ability, but on his ferocious speed, possible utilizing a surge of anger to further bolster his - already formidable - force abilities. He simple moved so fast that 2 out of the 4 Jedi confronting him where dead before they could even react. In a very similar fashion, a wounded and hungry Maul, deprived of sleep for weeks, was capable of almost overpowering Sidious in a surge of anger. Is that a viable reference point to gauge the lightsaber skill of Darth Maul? If you think it is, you can as well assume that RotJ Luke Skywalker is a superior duelist compared to Darth Vader, because he managed to batter him down in a surge of anger.

Third: Nick Gillard also proclaimed that Vaapad (and all other lightsaber forms) don't exist. And with the stuff we know about Sidious training, I can't picture him mastering multiple lightsaber styles. Why would he, if his command of the force would be sufficient to "move beyond forms" (as Kas'im describes it in "Path of Destruction" when Bane starts acting out of force guided instinct with a weapon in hand)?

Fourth: I find it rather questionable to ascribe all skills demonstrated by his apprentices to Sidious himself. The novels focusing on Darth Maul reveal quite nicely, that he did put himself through a rigorous training regime in terms of armed combat - and most of the time without Sidious assisting that. And why would Sidious "teach" him a lightsaber style (double-blade) that he didn't use himself. Especially, when, usually, the lightsaber style of the Padawan / Apprentice doesn't have to match that of his Master (see Anakin / Kenobi).

TCW further reveals that he can utilize jar’kai, to the extent of toying with Maul and Oppress. [/B]

Really? From what I've seen so far, he is just capable of handling two lightsabers (and a lot of offensive force use) well enough, to deal with the duo. Impressive? Yes. Sufficient to elevate him to the pantheon of lightsaber duellists? Given how Obi-Wan Kenobi handles the Sith brothers in a 2 vs 1 situation, I don't think so.

Originally posted by Nai
Hardly.
I already cited "Darth Plagueis" as reference for the reluctance of Plagueis to utilize the weapon and the real extend of Sidious lightsaber training. Compared to the likes of Dooku and even Maul, who focused on armed combat, Sidious certainly lacks formal training in that department. And compared to most Jedi, who - apparently - spared on a regular basis and utilized the weapon in combat, he lacks experience.

1. You forget that, despite despising the weapon, Plagueis was nonetheless described as a "master" of lightsaber combat.
2. Nick Gillard has confirmed that Sidious is a master of every fighting style. Hardly surprising, given his juyo background, and given the apprentices and assassins he's personally instructed.

So, even if Sidious despised lightsaber combat, he obviously recognized its utility, just like how he recognized the utility of playing the benevolent democracy-loving leader. That doesn't mean he wasn't darn good at it.

First: His fantastic performance against Yoda lasted for about 30 seconds before he - apparently - lost his lightsaber,

I don't recall many people being able to last 30 seconds (which is a heavy understatement, BTW) against Yoda. And I also seem to recall Yoda's struggling more against Sidious than he did against "consummate duelist" Dooku.

The same holds true for his duel with Mace Windu, where he ends up on the ground and disarmed in about a minute.

Even accepting your dubious interpretation of vaapad (when the novel makes it quite clear that Windu draws on Sidious's own darkness, as he does against his SL), seeing that Mace Windu himself is one of the greatest duelists in the Order's 25,000 year long history, I hardly view this as evidence of Sidious's weakness. Note that they fight as equals after Windu's vaapad evens out the speed disparity, this being despite Windu's significantly greater physical conditioning. Sidious can hang with Windu, even with his advantage in the Force nullified.

What happens when real "equals" clash, can be seen when Obi-Wan duels Anakin. But in terms of lightsaber ability, Sidious isn't a match for Yoda or Mace - demonstrated on screen.

Mace Windu was losing against Sidious, and would have fallen soon after the trio had he not sunken into vaapad (novelization). And what do you mean by "not a match"? Most lightsaber duels only last for a minute - Obi Wan's soresu being an obvious exception.

Furthermore, the novel makes it clear that Windu and Palpatine were equals after Windu matches his speed and Force amping - suggesting that Sidious, despite being in far lesser physical fitness than SLJ, can still compete through technical work. It's actually a conditional shatterpoint stemming from Anakin Skywalker that gave Windu the edge.

Second: His performance against the Jedi strike team is also not based on his technical lightsaber ability, but on his ferocious speed, possible utilizing a surge of anger to further bolster his - already formidable - force abilities. He simple moved so fast that 2 out of the 4 Jedi confronting him where dead before they could even react. In a very similar fashion, a wounded and hungry Maul, deprived of sleep for weeks, was capable of almost overpowering Sidious in a surge of anger. Is that a viable reference point to gauge the lightsaber skill of Darth Maul? If you think it is, you can as well assume that RotJ Luke Skywalker is a superior duelist compared to Darth Vader, because he managed to batter him down in a surge of anger.

You make a fair point here, except that Palpatine later takes on Windu just fine, even when the latter explicitly matches his speed and reaches an "impasse".

Third: Nick Gillard also proclaimed that Vaapad (and all other lightsaber forms) don't exist.

Please tell me where he says this.

And with the stuff we know about Sidious training, I can't picture him mastering multiple lightsaber styles. Why would he, if his command of the force would be sufficient to "move beyond forms" (as Kas'im describes it in "Path of Destruction" when Bane starts acting out of force guided instinct with a weapon in hand)?

😕 By that logic, explain why Yoda uses ataru when he's obviously beyond PoD Bane, or why Windu uses vaapad when he's obviously beyonod PoD Bane. Or why Obi Wan clearly fights using his eyes, despite telling Luke not to trust them. Kas'im didn't literally mean "lolz lightsaber skillz don't matter" (and indeed actually exclaims precisely the opposite) -

and if that were true, your entire point would be meaningless.

Fourth: I find it rather questionable to ascribe all skills demonstrated by his apprentices to Sidious himself. The novels focusing on Darth Maul reveal quite nicely, that he did put himself through a rigorous training regime in terms of armed combat - and most of the time without Sidious assisting that. And why would Sidious "teach" him a lightsaber style (double-blade) that he didn't use himself. Especially, when, usually, the lightsaber style of the Padawan / Apprentice doesn't have to match that of his Master (see Anakin / Kenobi).

Sidious uses juyo.

Really? From what I've seen so far, he is just capable of handling two lightsabers (and a lot of offensive force use) well enough, to deal with the duo. Impressive? Yes. Sufficient to elevate him to the pantheon of lightsaber duellists? Given how Obi-Wan Kenobi handles the Sith brothers in a 2 vs 1 situation, I don't think so.

If he weren't good at jar'kai, he'd have used his chosen juyo instead.

Originally posted by Nai
You do grasp the apparent contradiction here, right? Apparently not.

If I'm your superior in interpreting literature, it follows, that I'm also your superior in a field that is based almost solely on that particular skill.

Your inability to grasp that fact, already shows how "skilled" you are, when it comes down to analysis and the forming of coherent arguments.

Lmao

There is no contradiction. Being better at interpreting literature doesn't mean you are better at judging who would win in a vs. debate. You sound silly. That's like saying someone who can interpret the Bible is automatically better at judging on who would win out of two boxers in a boxing match than someone who wouldn't be able to understand the Bible. Just no.

Originally posted by Nai
And to add the icing to this particularly ugly cake: You might consider the fact, that I'm operating under aggravated conditions here, given that I'm neither utilizing my primary language (which would be German) nor arguing to convince people of my personal opinion.

What does this have to do with anything? As long as you can make your points clear then I don't see how this is relevant, other than you wanting to brag about yourself, which isn't surprising.

Originally posted by Nai
Yet, unlike you, I'm not the only person recognizing my own skill as a debater. In my case, that particular trait has been lauded even by my most notorious opponents in this forum, including the likes of Lightsnake and Gideon.

What do you mean unlike me? Gideon has complimented me on my debating skills as well as others. But I don't see how any of this is relevant, do you?

Besides, most everyone looked up to you back in the day because they were still very young at the time while you were fully grown, so I wouldn't brag about being held in high esteem by people you had years on in improving your quality as a debater. Those same people who complimented you grew up and the quality of their debating skills have improved dramatically, hence why most of them would no longer agree with you on Dooku being a near equal to Sidious. Face it, you're not top notch anymore; stop pretending what everyone thought about you in the past matters now.

Originally posted by Nai
Sidious was holding the superior position during that section of the duel, forcing Yoda to - quite literally - run circles around him. I don't see how the apparent disarming could have been a question of "uneven terrain". In fact, Yoda on "equal ground" should give Sidious much more trouble, considering the fact, that - in such a situation - the Sith Lord would be limited to about 1/3 of his arsenal of lightsaber moves, because of Yoda's hight.

Yoda's style of fighting is leaping in circles around his opponent, so I'm not sure how Yoda leaping around in circles, being able to evade Sidious's attacks without relying purely on his saber to defend against said attacks, was a disadvantage for him. Yoda never stays in one spot during any duel; it's not like he relies on foot work anyways. Also, Yoda was fighting on the high part of the platform, which took away his disadvantage of height and reach.

The confined area was a disadvantage to Sidious in that he didn't have much room to maneuver in. He was disarmed by Yoda because Yoda's ferocious assault nearly cause him to go over the edge, which is how he dropped his saber. Not seeing how that would have happened on even ground since there wouldn't have been an edge to nearly fall over. On even ground Sidious would have room to give ground or leap away from Yoda's attack. Remember, Sidious relies on acrobats and his agility in saber duels, which is things he couldn't rely on in a confined rising platform. So if you believe Yoda could have disarmed him on even ground even easier then prove how.

Not saying Yoda wouldn't win on even ground, in my opinion I believe Yoda would still take a majority in saber combat, but I think the fight would be much closer for reasons I explained

Originally posted by Nai
I'd also like to point to some facts considering the saber ability of Sidious. "Darth Plaguies" reveals quite nicely, that Sidious master wasn't fond of lightsaber duels. He actually dispised the art. The only formal training that Sidious - according to that novel - received in the art, are contests versus droids and a ritual slaughter of technologically inferior non-force-sensitives. Hardly a base to assume formal lightsaber mastery on a "technical" level.

Yet he is still confirmed as having mastery over all seven forms, and has some of the greatest saber feats in canon, such as blitzing masters in seconds despite Windu being alongside them, and dueling as a near equal to the orders greatest lightsaber duelist despite the terrain being a disadvantage for him. You can't use Sidious's speed as an excuse for him holding his own against Yoda, considering that Yoda is just as fast as him, which would then mean that the gap in skill isn't that great, otherwise Yoda should have ended the fight relatively easy.

Originally posted by Nai
And there are the following inconvenient facts: Sidious was - in the very same source - disarmed by Mace Windu. On equal ground. While Mace usually is viewed as Yoda's inferior in both lightsaber skill and force ability. So why shouldn't Yoda be capable of archiving the very same?

This argument actually serves in Sidious's favor, and may support the argument that Sidious may have never intended on winning his fight against Windu, but wanted to create a situation in which Anakin was forced to choose sides, hence the telepathic warning to Anakin before the jedi even arrived.

Regardless, the novel makes it clear that Mace's usage of vaapad was far more potent than it had ever been, and only won due to his shatterpoint ability which took advantage of Sidious's fear (fear that Mace later realized wasn't even there to begin with, but was actually Anakin's fear he was feeling, BTW).

Originally posted by Nai
You see. I don't want to cast doubt on Sidious' deadliness with a lightsaber. Given his force mastery (that translates into precognition, manipulation of opponents and sheer speed) he is, most certainly, a formidable opponent. But once his strength in the force is either negated (as in the duel vs Mace) or matched (his duel with Yoda), he will most likely lose in armed confrontations. This even hold true to his DE incarnation. Once Leia starts negating Palpatine's "dark side version" of battle meditation, even Luke Skywalker is capable of disarming the Sith Lord.

The same can be said about Yoda who relies far more heavily on the force in saber duels than Sidious does. Take away the force, Yoda can barely walk. Does this make him unskilled? If so, it sure does contradict sources that suggest he is among the most skilled saber duelist of all jedi.

Originally posted by Nai
Sidious never was the "fighter type" of a Sith Lord, and I find it rather irritating, that people feel the need to convince others, that he is a monster with a lightsaber in hand.

His feats and accolades disagree with you. Though your irritation is not surprising given your extreme bias against the character. Just because Sidious may not put his fighting ability first, doesn't mean that he is not a fighter. What kind of logic is that?

Note: I was wrong about Sidious's preferring juyo. But I was right about Gillard's commentary:

"It took a really long time for Nick to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him. Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."
Nick Gillard

Given that he trains Maul in a form requiring the high end mastery of various forms, trains various Emperor's hands in exotic weapon styles and techniques, and can duel evenly with Mace Windu even after the Jedi Master nullifies his Force advantage, only losing due to a circumstantial shatterpoint, it's obvious he's a master lightsaber duelist.

On my iPhone and can't get into lengthy debates, but Sidious is a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat per The Clone Wars Episode Guide.

Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good. - NG

Could people please leave the exact source when they're giving quotes. Thanks.

Originally posted by Master Han

Given that he trains Maul in a form requiring the high end mastery of various forms, trains various Emperor's hands in exotic weapon styles and techniques, and can duel evenly with Mace Windu even after the Jedi Master nullifies his Force advantage, only losing due to a circumstantial shatterpoint, it's obvious he's a master lightsaber duelist.

Yeah his mastery seems to have been on Par with Mace Windu(which is obviously top-tier Saber Mastery). It was only Windu's natural Shatterpoint talent which gave him the edge in that particular fight.

Really love how people are trying to say Sidious isint a fighter. Slaughtering 3 Jedi Masters(would have killed the fourth in saber combat aswell), fighting evenly with Yoda and PWNING Maul and Opress. He's as much of a fighter as they come.

Also, lol @ Sidious "using a lot of force use" during his fight with Maul and Savage. If anything, Sidious held back a lot on his offensive force powers. He only used the force two times during the actual lightsaber duel. The first time was when he pulled them off the balcony as he was falling, which served the purpose to keep the fight going rather than giving him a one up on the brothers. The second time was when Maul came flying at him while he [Sidious] had his sabers deactivated after pulling off a show-offy stunt by flip kicking Savage. The only other times he used the force was before the duel began and after he already had them defeated.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, lol @ Sidious "using a lot of force use" during his fight with Maul and Savage. If anything, Sidious held back a lot on his offensive force powers. He only used the force two times during the actual lightsaber duel. The first time was when he pulled them off the balcony as he was falling, which served the purpose to keep the fight going rather than giving him a one up on the brothers. The second time was when Maul came flying at him while he [Sidious] had his sabers deactivated after pulling off a show-offy stunt by flip kicking Savage. The only other times he used the force was before the duel began and after he already had them defeated.

Agreed. People just don't like the fact Sidious was the 2nd best saberduelist in the movies.

Actually he wasn't the 2nd best duelist in the movies.. he was third behind Yoda and Mace

Prove it.

Sure... both yoda and Mace disarmed him in saber combat. Thanks for playing... Now prove how he's better than either.

I'm sorry for the late replies. Had some nice pile of work to go through in the past two weeks, that had me grounded...

Originally posted by Master Han
1. You forget that, despite despising the weapon, Plagueis was nonetheless described as a "master" of lightsaber combat.

A title that is ascribed to half of the lightsaber wielding characters in the SW universe. Even Nomi Sunrider, picking up a lightsaber for the very first time, is described as wielding the weapon "like a master" (Tales of the Jedi: The Saga of Nomi Sunrider). Which, rather than assuming that every being in history of the SW universe, who had ascribed a "master" to him in terms of lightsaber ability, actually deserves it, leads to the question, if that term might have been a little overused in the source material.

2. Nick Gillard has confirmed that Sidious is a master of every fighting style. Hardly surprising, given his juyo background, and given the apprentices and assassins he's personally instructed.

I've already commented on that. Why are you bringing it up once again? Nick Gillard is not a canon source. End of story. But even if you'd like to assume that his words bear some weight, you might ask yourself how ridiculous it is to make a blanket statement like that. He's a master of every fighting style? So, that's not only lightsaber combat but Kung Fu as well? Or the good ol' scotish martial art of "Fukyiu", which is mostly concerned with headbutting and kicking people on the ground? Just asking.

So, even if Sidious despised lightsaber combat, he obviously recognized its utility, just like how he recognized the utility of playing the benevolent democracy-loving leader. That doesn't mean he wasn't darn good at it.

One must love how brilliantly avoided to comment on the rather sensible reasons I presented for the idea, that Sidious - as far as technique is concerned - is outclassed by people focussing on lightsaber duelling when it comes to technical finesse, instead of seeing it as a useful but inconvenient skill to use.

I don't recall many people being able to last 30 seconds (which is a heavy understatement, BTW) against Yoda. And I also seem to recall Yoda's struggling more against Sidious than he did against "consummate duelist" Dooku.

A heavy understatement?

YouTube video

40 seconds from the first touching of their blades to the point at which Sidious is - apparently - disarmed. And if you want to open the can of "seems to be struggeling", then Dooku seemed to have far less problems fighting Yoda than Sidious has. At least, he wasn't moaning whenever engaging Yoda in a saber-lock. And, after all, he walked away with his weapon in hand. 😉

Even accepting your dubious interpretation of vaapad (when the novel makes it quite clear that Windu draws on Sidious's own darkness, as he does against his SL),

It's nice what the novel "makes clear". Apparently, people are pretty incapable of reading properly when it comes down to that particular passage in the novel.

"Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness."

Whose darkness? Windu's own! Not that of Sidious. And I wonder, how you imagine Windu practicing "draining darksiders" or "nullifying darksiders", being completely devoid of, you know, dark side alligned sparing partners - and, for most part of his career, even the notion that opponents to use this against did exists at all. One could also ask the question, why this particular effect hasn't taken place when Windu faced Kar Vastor or Depa Billaba in direct confrontation. But I guess, you were refering to this part:

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center— and let it fountain out again.[...] Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow;[...]"

And now for some lessons in literature analysis.
What does Vaapad do? Mace Windu, being the POV character here, views it as a channel for darkness, flowing through it in both ways. The "darkness" being defined here as "rage and power" resulting in the "furious speed" of Sidious. And what does Mace do with that? Nothing. It just passes through him, untouched and unchanged, yet is answered by Windu's own darkness, allowing him to match the Sith Lord in terms of speed.

That interpretation, precisely, is backed up by the term "superconducting loop". What, pray tell, is a superconductor? That term is used to describe an object, that offers no resistance to an (electric) current flowing through it. It doesn't produce energy, doesn't drain energy or does transform it. In fact, such an electric current, flowing through a superconductor, can last indefinitely, without power being added from the outside. That interpretation is also backed up by Mace's comment on Vaapad, allowing him to turn his inner darkness into a weapon for the light.

He's neither drawing on the power of Sidious, nor is there any magical component involved in the style that makes it especially useful against dark side alligned force users. This is just Mace Windu using his own darkness to defeat his opponent. As the often cited Nick Gillard said, utilizing the Dark Side gives you an advantage in combat. This is precisely what Windu does benefit from, but that certainly doesn't do anything to Sidious abilities.

seeing that Mace Windu himself is one of the greatest duelists in the Order's 25,000 year long history, I hardly view this as evidence of Sidious's weakness. Note that they fight as equals after Windu's vaapad evens out the speed disparity, this being despite Windu's significantly greater physical conditioning. Sidious can hang with Windu, even with his advantage in the Force nullified.

*sigh*
I'm rather astonished, how people attempt to argue around the obvious truth: Sidious can not "hang with Windu". That's why he ends up on the ground, disarmed and with a lightsaber on his throat in under two minutes of fighting. And if any of the "great duellists" in the saga could - speculatively - archive the same against Sidious, that list is far longer, than you may like.

Mace Windu was losing against Sidious, and would have fallen soon after the trio had he not sunken into vaapad (novelization). And what do you mean by "not a match"? Most lightsaber duels only last for a minute - Obi Wan's soresu being an obvious exception.

Where was Mace losing against Sidious? He held his own, and when finally sunken into Vaapad, he was essentially fighting without even thinking about it.

"The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source."

So while Sidious, for all we know, is completely focused on the fight, and utilizes everything he's got to defeat Windu, the Jedi Master is handling the Sith Lord on autopilot in the physical world, while probing around with the Force in the metaphysical realm. Does that sound like a description of "equality" for you? It certainly doesn't for me.

Furthermore, the novel makes it clear that Windu and Palpatine were equals after Windu matches his speed and Force amping - suggesting that Sidious, despite being in far lesser physical fitness than SLJ, can still compete through technical work. It's actually a conditional shatterpoint stemming from Anakin Skywalker that gave Windu the edge.

As quoted above: Windu is handling the Sith Lord on autopilot, and Sidious "lesser physical fitness" is pretty much negated by his superior command of the force. And if that is impressive for you, one must wonder how high your respect for Yoda must be, who had to cope with a far greater physical disadvantage in comparison to everyone he fought in the series...

You make a fair point here, except that Palpatine later takes on Windu just fine, even when the latter explicitly matches his speed and reaches an "impasse".

Wrong. Palpatine loses against Windu. He doesn't do fine, he doesn't "almost defeat" him. He get's his ass handed to him in less than two minutes of fighting, because Mace can just run the lightsaber duel on autopilot while "shatterpointing" Sidious into defeat.

Please tell me where he says this.

Right here

This is a summary of an online chat before the release of RotS and you can find this statement there:

"Mace (Sam) does not use "vaapad" (?) in Ep3, he does what Nick tells him to do for the scene."

Of course, that statement had to be overwritten with the acceptance of the lightsaber forms into canon. Still: Gillard hasn't any claim to expertise regarding those forms, since he probably doesn't even know how they work. So citing him on anything but stunts in the movies is pretty much arbitrary and pointless, not only because of his lack of expertise on the topic, but also because his opinion isn't canon.

😕 By that logic, explain why Yoda uses ataru when he's obviously beyond PoD Bane, or why Windu uses vaapad when he's obviously beyonod PoD Bane. Or why Obi Wan clearly fights using his eyes, despite telling Luke not to trust them. Kas'im didn't literally mean "lolz lightsaber skillz don't matter" (and indeed actually exclaims precisely the opposite) -

and if that were true, your entire point would be meaningless.

Either I'm that hard to understand or you aren't even trying.
My point, and that is similar to the comments of Kas'im regarding lightsaber combat, is, that there are - basically - two fractions of lightsaber wielders out in the SW universe.

On the one side, you have those that extensively focus on the technical aspects of lightsaber combat, such as Kas'im himself. They will try to master styles and master "exotic" techniques, maybe even design their very own style, enabling them to overcome opponents in lightsaber duels, because of employing either a very refined or a very unusual bladework.

The second group of lightsaber wielders is aware of the benefits of such blade mastery, yet doesn't pursue it in an equal fashion. Instead, they rely on their mastery of the force, allowing them to boost their efficacy in combat through metaphysical powers. What they lack in refined technique, they will even out with force aided speed and strength, precognition, and even active manipulation of the force in order to strengthen themselves (e.g. Battle Meditation / Battle Mind) or weaken their respective opponents (what Sidious apparently does against Luke in their fights in the DE comics).

Both ways offer certain advantages, that can be observed during the duel of Kas'im and Bane in "Path of Destruction". Bane's superior command of the force negates all the technical training and experience that Kas'im has under his belt. Then, when Kas'im applies Jar'Kai, that situation is reversed, because the unfamiliar style starts wearing down Bane's force based advantages.

Now Sidious claim to saber-fame is based pretty much solely on his command of the force. This is, what I'm trying to tell the audience. We know that his master wasn't font of the art and didn't subject Sidious to training similar of the stuff, Maul had to go through under Sidious' tutelage later. Nor was that training focused on lightsaber duels in particular, but more on defense against blasters. After all, the Sith didn't intent to personally butcher the entire Jedi order, did they?

And as you mentioned Yoda: He is also, quite clearly, one of the persons in the "force powers over technique" category. And he is, probably, the most proficient practicer of Ataru, because that style levels the disadvatages of his size (lack of reach, physical strength), which is precisely what Mace tells Obi-Wan. Now does it appear to you, that Yoda is following movement sequences or patterns in his attacks? Or is he guided by his force abilities? I'd suggest the latter.

Does that mean people of the "second category" are worse opponents in lightsaber duels? Most certainly not. If the sheer connection to the force can enable Nomi Sunrider to wield the weapon "like a master", one can easily conclude, that a combination of that force mastery and actual training with the weapon, topped by decades (or even centuries) of expierience will be a most deadly one.

Still, for me, there remains the question, whether a Jedi / Sith focusing on the art of armed combat could defeat a (far) superior force user. And in that regard, I think, that the kind of thinking going on in this forum here is far too narrow, considering how expertise in stuff like the Echani arts or Teräs Käsi has been shown to put humans without a connection to the force on one level with trained Jedi Knights.

Note: I was wrong about Sidious's preferring juyo. But I was right about Gillard's commentary:

"It took a really long time for Nick to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him._Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."
Nick Gillard

Given that he trains Maul in a form requiring the high end mastery of various forms, trains various Emperor's hands in exotic weapon styles and techniques, and can duel evenly with Mace Windu even after the Jedi Master nullifies his Force advantage, only losing due to a circumstantial shatterpoint, it's obvious he's a master lightsaber duelist.

Oh my.
Firstly I like to thank you for tossing a quote without source into this debate, forcing me to find it out for myself. Actually, this isn't a direct quote by Nick Gillard, but a stems from a summary of spoilers for "Revenge of the Sith" compiled by a user over at theforce.net (direct link: here. So this was coming from a day before lightsaber forms were even adopted into canon and Nick's general stance regarding that topic was that everybody just did as he said – meaning there weren't "forms" involved at all (see quote above). That aside, the aforementioned commentary on arbitrary quotes from Nick Gillard still applies: His opinion isn't canon, hence not to be considered when debating here. End of story.

Aside of that: Ascribing the skills of his apprentices to Sidious is absolutely illogical - in two ways.

First: Is Obi-Wan Kenobi a master of Djem So, because Anakin does utilize that style? And how did Kenobi master Soresu, which he didn't start learning, before Qui-Gons death in TPM? Obviously, a lot of skills that both Jedi and Sith demonstrate on screen can't be linked to their respective masters, but are either self-taught entirely or acquired from different sources. And in this case, I don't even know a canon source listing either Maul or Sidious as Juyo practicioneers. For the former, this notion is – seemingly – coming from the original "Fightsaber" article only, and that still isn't canon. And Sidious proficiency in the mastery of that form is speculated from there. In fact, if we go by "Darth Plagueis", Maul is utilizing Jar'Kai/Niman:

"A saber-staff! The weapon of Exar Kun! Did he construct that?"
"The prototype was two lightsabers he had wielded pommel-to-pommel in imitation of the Iridonian zhaboka. I furnished the knowledge that allowed him to improve on the original design and construct the one he is using."
"It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice."

So, apparently, nobody there is using Juyo. And if that, and Gillard's quote, are all you have to say about this issue, then, I'm afraid you don't bring anything to the table at all.

Second: We know that Maul did much of his combat training on his own from the novels centering on him. We likewise know that Sidious himself didn't dedicate much time into bladework – with the actual showings of his training not even touching the issue lightsaber vs lightsaber confrontation. So one must wonder if his supposed "mastery" of all forms isn't more a familiarity than actual full control and knowledge of all forms. I'd say the same about the likes of Sora Bulq, Dooku and the various battlemasters of the Order (Cin Drallig, Anon Bondara) as well. Simply compare their performance to a "real master" of all forms (Kas'im) and you can't do much but wonder, how they all were so easily overwhelmed in lightsaber duels by seemingly "lesser" opponents.

@Sidious 66

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is no contradiction. Being better at interpreting literature doesn't mean you are better at judging who would win in a vs. debate. You sound silly. That's like saying someone who can interpret the Bible is automatically better at judging on who would win out of two boxers in a boxing match than someone who wouldn't be able to understand the Bible. Just no.

Your inability to grasp my point is testament to your proficiency in the analysis and debating business.

The comparison you make is rather poor, given that judging boxers isn't dependant on interpreting the bible. Judging Star Wars characters however does heavily depend on the interpretation of the corresponding source material (read:literature analysis). That you don't see a link between those two things, probably reveals a lot about your supposed skill as a participant in SW-related debates – or, rather, the ways you reach your conclusions.

What do you mean unlike me? Gideon has complimented me on my debating skills as well as others. But I don't see how any of this is relevant, do you?

Do you honestly see no difference between self-praise and the judgement of others? Interesting. You may call me Galactic President Superstar McAwesomeville from now on. Because I just am. 😉

Besides, most everyone looked up to you back in the day because they were still very young at the time while you were fully grown, so I wouldn't brag about being held in high esteem by people you had years on in improving your quality as a debater. Those same people who complimented you grew up and the quality of their debating skills have improved dramatically, hence why most of them would no longer agree with you on Dooku being a near equal to Sidious. Face it, you're not top notch anymore; stop pretending what everyone thought about you in the past matters now.

What an artistically articulated tirade.
But you're still missing the point, which was the difference between self-evaluation in your case and a rating of debating skills through others in mine.

That aside: You do realize, that I have just as many years on in improving my quality as a debater now, than I had five years ago, right? And I must have missed the "dramatical improvement" (though I didn't miss the drama) here, because most people are still following the same agenda and utilizing the same "techniques" for debating they employed years ago. Which is, and this may sound condescending now, a blind faith in the idea that everything appearing in sources it to be taken literal without second thought – in many cases even without first. In combination with the idea to have found "the truth" about certain issues, leading to confirmation bias and other logical stunts, performed, in order to defend once own precious opinion. If somebody "improved dramatically", it was probably in those arts.

You get some bonus points, though, for excluding yourself from those who have "dramatically improved". An uncharacteristically realistic but nonetheless appreciated judgement on your part. But just then, I have to remove those points from your scoreboard again, for attempting to judge my position in the debating business relative to the "top notch" in the area. Since you've never belonged to that particular crowd of people and – as I may add – never will, I'd advise you to stick to your trade, before you seriously hurt yourself.

Yoda's style of fighting is leaping in circles around his opponent, so I'm not sure how Yoda leaping around in circles, being able to evade Sidious's attacks without relying purely on his saber to defend against said attacks, was a disadvantage for him. Yoda never stays in one spot during any duel; it's not like he relies on foot work anyways. Also, Yoda was fighting on the high part of the platform, which took away his disadvantage of height and reach.

Swordfighting 101 - just for you.
As you probably wont believe my words, you can just grab yourself a stick and try everything I say now for yourself.

Most fighting forms aren't designed to be used against 0.66 meter high opponents like Yoda. So. If you face an opponent like that, you will need to sacrifice almost two thirds of your usual offensive options in a fight. Because, obviously, Yoda is just (about) one third the height of a grown man (which would be the usual opponent). So, comparing Yoda to a usual target, there is neither an upper section nor a mid-section you can place hits on, just the lower section. Which is the part of the body swordfighters usually don't place attacks on.

Why? You can test the following things for yourself, utilizing the aforementioned stick. Your arms happen to be on the upper third of your body. A fairly obvious observation. You have your greatest reach, when holding your arms in a 90 degree ankle in relation to your torso. Now trying to hit a target with a sword in hand, that is located close to the ground, will in inenvitable lead to a diminishing reach and power in comparison to strikes placed in the middle / upper section of an opponent. [You can try that with your stick by holding it out in the first position, tip against a wall and then lower your arm to a position where the tip of the stick is on one level with your knees]. You will observe, that roughly the half of your reach is gone. If you try to swing the stick in both positions, you will observe, that trying to aim to the knee-level, will result in slower, less powerful swings. Because of those facts, you seldomly see swordfighters aiming at the legs of an opponent. In fact, the probably only "effective" manouvers, I can think of, utilizing such moves, would be stabs to the upper legs of your opponent, seeking to immobilize him or a backhanded en passant swing when moving past an opponent (hamstring). Yet, both would be more of a fencing manouvers (see Dooku in AotC) then the usual lightsaber fighting we witness throughout the saga.

So for Sidious, fighting Yoda on equal ground would be an extremely unfavourable thing, not just because of sacrificing 2/3s of his offensive abilities, but also because Yoda's "usual" hight of attack would be Sidious lower section - at the Jedi Masters maximum reach and power. So having Yoda on the "high part" of the platform is nothing but an advantage for Sidious, in both offense and defense: Neither does he need to aim his strikes down at Yoda, sacrificing speed and strength, nor are Yoda's attacks delivered on the least defensible part of Sidious body.

On Yoda's part I don't see much advantage there. Sure. He doesn't need to jump as high to place swings on the upper defense of Sidious, but from the perspective of a swordfighter, that already is a nonsensical tactic on Yoda's part, unless attempting to confuse his opponent with the variety of possible points for attack. And even then, he doesn't seem to have much trouble utilizing his artistics against an opponent on equal ground, as seen in his fights against Dooku. In one of those fights, he's even seen alternating the route of his movement while in mid-air.

The confined area was a disadvantage to Sidious in that he didn't have much room to maneuver in. He was disarmed by Yoda because Yoda's ferocious assault nearly cause him to go over the edge, which is how he dropped his saber. Not seeing how that would have happened on even ground since there wouldn't have been an edge to nearly fall over. On even ground Sidious would have room to give ground or leap away from Yoda's attack. Remember, Sidious relies on acrobats and his agility in saber duels, which is things he couldn't rely on in a confined rising platform. So if you believe Yoda could have disarmed him on even ground even easier then prove how.

And this part here is heavily conflicting with what we know about Sidious fighting style. He is a very efficient duellist, capable of manouvering and handling his blade in a very precise fashion, demonstrated in the instance where he ran his blade around Darth Maul's silhuetto in a blurring speed, so close that Maul commented on it, that a twitching of one of his muscles would have resulted in serious injury. That aside, we saw Sidious utilizing confined space to his advantage when confronting the Jedi strike team in his office. Again, I'd say Yoda does suffer far more from confined space, given that he needs wide swings to even out his lack of physical strength / reach and relies heavily upon accrobatic manouvers - far more so than Sidious himself.

Not saying Yoda wouldn't win on even ground, in my opinion I believe Yoda would still take a majority in saber combat, but I think the fight would be much closer for reasons I explained

Taking the stuff above into consideration, I imagine Sidious wouldn't fare better on equal ground, since he will find himself in far less benefitial conditions for himself, while all advantages (aside from the need to perform higher jumps) are on Yoda's side. Yes, there won't be the threat to be pushed over an edge - but there would be the risk to get cornered by a similar assault from Yoda, with the result being a whirlwind with a lightsaber hacking away at your legs. Certainly not desireable.

Yet he is still confirmed as having mastery over all seven forms,

No. Nick Gillard made that assessment – without even knowing those forms. Has this been the content of a source viewed as canon by LFL or is it merely representing Gillards personal thoughts which - at the end of the day - don't mean anything under the laws of LFL canon? If the former is the case, I'd like to have the source (with a page reference to check it myself). If the latter is the case, we can just ignore this.

Hell. Even if we would accept the notion that Sidious is master of all forms, despite of the fact, that pretty much every available source does contradict that notion. What does that even mean? Cin Drallig was a master of all forms, and Anakin ran him through. Anoon Bondara was a master of all forms, and had no chance against Darth Maul. Sora Bulq was a master of all forms – even Vaapad – with didn't stop Dooku or Vos from defeating him. And the latter example already shows, why this claim is utterly ridiculous. He was master of a form that, canonically, hadn't been completed until the arival of Mace and Vaapad – something Sidious certainly did not master?

and has some of the greatest saber feats in canon,

The "greatness" of feats is subject to interpretation and I wouldn't use that as a fundament for any kind of argument.

such as blitzing masters in seconds despite Windu being alongside them,

Which can be explained by a temporary surge of the Dark Side, provided, that Sidious is clearly unable to keep up with that performance in his following duel against Windu alone and in his duel against Yoda. Hardly a viable basis to gauge his usual lightsaber skill. And hell. The "blitzing" alone, attributed to his speed, already suggests, that it doesn't have to do anything with his lightsaber technique but his force mastery and the visual evidence shows as much.

Further evidence for this theory is presented in the "Dark Empire" comics. Once Sidious force advantage is negated, even a – relatively – untrained and (in terms of lightsaber duels) inexperienced Luke Skywalker is capable of disarming him, when Sidious – using the force against his opponent – was capable of doing the same to Skywalker just a short time earlier. I hope you don't want to explain that with a sudden leap in technical finess on Skywalkers part or a deminishing of the same on the side of Sidious.

In fact, I have a quote telling us as much:
"Though Vader found Rillao had all the makings of a Jedi healer, Hethrir possessed Darth Sidious' rare talent to cast a dark side shadow over Force users, dulling their abilities." ("Aliens in the Empire, part II"😉

Probably what he was doing with Luke, possibly what he was doing with the Jedi strike team assembled to capture him. Not enough to handle Windu's Vaapad. Would it do him anything good against a dark side aligned opponent or powerful enough to counter / lessen the effect to such an extend, that lightsaber technique would be the deciding factor again?

and dueling as a near equal to the orders greatest lightsaber duelist despite the terrain being a disadvantage for him.

For the supposed "disadvantage" see above. And "near equal"? He lost his weapon in, as it seems, under a minute of actual fighting. Calling that a fight between "near equals" is seriously overestimating Sidious saber abilities. A fight between equals would usually more look like Anakin vs Obi-Wan, even in terms of real-life sports, Kendo fights – just as example - among equally good fighters can last 10 minutes without anybody actually hitting the respective opponent during a constant exchange of blows. Disarming an opponent in about a minute of fighting would actually be called a vast inferiority of the disarmed combatant. [Note: Actually, I would suggest that such a fight would have been (badly) choreographed.]

You can't use Sidious's speed as an excuse for him holding his own against Yoda, considering that Yoda is just as fast as him, which would then mean that the gap in skill isn't that great, otherwise Yoda should have ended the fight relatively easy.

And again, you're arguing from a false premise. Sidious doesn't "hold his own" against Yoda. As far as the script is concerned, he loses his weapon. Even following Gideon's personal version of what happened in the rotunda, Sidious found it more promising to fight Yoda with the force than using his lightsaber - after less than a minute of fighting. This, when has witnessed Yoda's force abilities first hand when being flung through his own office just minutes earlier – and knew, that they were probably compareable to his own. So, following Gideon's reasoning, he chose to duke this out in a discipline he maybe hat a 50/50 chance of winning, because of realizing, he didn't have the same chance in lightsaber combat. This after about a minute of actual fighting. What does that tell you about his estimated chances against Yoda in a lightsaber fight? They must have been far worse. From there to "being Yoda's equal" or "holding his own against Yoda" isn't a stretch, but an abysmal hole in your reasoning.

This argument actually serves in Sidious's favor, and may support the argument that Sidious may have never intended on winning his fight against Windu, but wanted to create a situation in which Anakin was forced to choose sides, hence the telepathic warning to Anakin before the jedi even arrived.

Wow. It has been more than eight years that we have witnessed the RotS commentary declaring, that Windu overpowered Sidious in the lightsaber duel, who in turn was using all he could to kill the Jedi Master, just to melt his own face down. Yet, you still manage to ignore that inconvenient fact?

Regardless, the novel makes it clear that Mace's usage of vaapad was far more potent than it had ever been, and only won due to his shatterpoint ability which took advantage of Sidious's fear (fear that Mace later realized wasn't even there to begin with, but was actually Anakin's fear he was feeling, BTW).

So, Mace used fear that wasn't even there to defeat Sidious? Great argument, pal. Oh. It was Anakin's fear, who - if I may remind you - isn't even present in that very moment as far as the movie - the highest form of canon - is concerned. Grasping straws much? I mean. Seriously. Even if we look at the description of the fight in the novel, Anakin (as Sidious' Shatterpoint) hasn't to do much with the outcome of this fight. Mace gets Sidious on slippery ground, Sidious slows down, Mace capitalizes on that fact and – now being the faster of the two – disarms him. Probably the most stupid description of "Shatterpoint" being used, that one could imagine, given that the specific use of the technique archives – pretty much – nothing.

The same can be said about Yoda who relies far more heavily on the force in saber duels than Sidious does. Take away the force, Yoda can barely walk. Does this make him unskilled? If so, it sure does contradict sources that suggest he is among the most skilled saber duelist of all jedi.

After having declared, that it isn't my inteniton to question Sidious overall ability as a combatant, this attempt to straw man me is rather funny.

I was questioning Sidious technical fencing ability and not his overall - force aided - prowess with the weapon. Why? Because those things are – evidently – completely confused here, and – seemingly – just to install Sidious on a position at the pantheon of lightsaber duellists, that is clearly above his station as a combatant. The man is not a fighter, according to the words of Lucas himself (RotS commentary, introduction of Grievous) – "just" a supremely skilled force user, who applies that very strength of himself in combat, as seen in all of his "saber feats". When it comes down to lightsaber fighting, he is clearly outclassed by the likes of Yoda and Windu, evident by the fact that both of them managed to disarm the Sith Lord in under two minutes of fighting. And if those two can manage, the list of potential candidates capable of taking Sidious in a lightsaber fight could be rather long.

Not, and here we are back at Sidious overall duelling abilities, that this would eventually matter, given that Sidious would simply outclass most possible opponents in terms of force abilities, enabling him to pull some "speed blitz" against them, should the need arise. Or, and this I consinder the more likely scenario, obliterate them, before even igniting his lightsaber.

His feats and accolades disagree with you. Though your irritation is not surprising given your extreme bias against the character. Just because Sidious may not put his fighting ability first, doesn't mean that he is not a fighter. What kind of logic is that?

Pardon me. Your interpretation of his "feats and accolades" is, what disagrees with me, and – taking another look at your username and considering your arguments above – I don't think, that is worth much. And I don't hold any bias against the character of Sidious (ridiculous accusation, especially coming from yourself). I'm just not a screaming fangirl, that is forced to interprete anything in favor for one favorite character. You could call that skepticism, something that a rather huge amount of people around here is seemingly incapable of. What a shame, provided that skepticism is the basis for scientific work, resulting in thought-out arguments and, maybe, reasonable conclusions. If you want to base your opinion on quotes from arbitrary sources (Nick Gillard) and literalism without second thought – have it your way. But don't presume to "argue" based on that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, lol @ Sidious "using a lot of force use" during his fight with Maul and Savage. If anything, Sidious held back a lot on his offensive force powers. He only used the force two times during the actual lightsaber duel. The first time was when he pulled them off the balcony as he was falling, which served the purpose to keep the fight going rather than giving him a one up on the brothers. The second time was when Maul came flying at him while he [Sidious] had his sabers deactivated after pulling off a show-offy stunt by flip kicking Savage. The only other times he used the force was before the duel began and after he already had them defeated.

Excusez moi. What fight did you watch?

YouTube video

How does Sidious open this fight? Oh. Right. He uses the force to slam both brothers into the windows. After that, he uses the force to pull both of his opponents from over the edge, after having been kicked over. And how does he "end" the 2vs1? Force aided kick to send Opress flying (stunning him), massive force push to send Maul flying, removing him from the fight, which gives him the opportunity to kill Opress in a 1vs1 situation. After that, he pretty much force rapes Maul, taking his former apprentice down.

Seriously. The only thing that this fight "proves", in terms of lightsaber abilities, is that Sidious is capable of defending himself against the joined efforts of the duo with his sabers. He seperates and defeats them exclusively via or after force manouvers. But, well, we know at least another person capable of defending himself against the joined efforts of the brothers, right?

YouTube video

Well? We see, that Obi-Wan Kenobi is quite capable of holding his own against the duo in the saber department, even (literally) disarming Opress in the process, which forces Maul to utilize offensive force abilities to end the confrontation. If Kenobi is capable of essentially sabering them down, I don't see why I should be especially impressed by Sidious doing the same (with addional offensive force moves to do the job)?