Originally posted by Nai
And in this case, I don't even know a canon source listing either Maul or Sidious as Juyo practicioneers. For the former, this notion is – seemingly – coming from the original "Fightsaber" article only, and that still isn't canon. And Sidious proficiency in the mastery of that form is speculated from there. In fact, if we go by "Darth Plagueis", Maul is utilizing Jar'Kai/Niman:
Wait Maul isn't a Juyo practitioner?
Why's that original Fightsaber article not canon?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wait Maul isn't a Juyo practitioner?
According to Fight Saber, he is. Juyo requires its practitioners to be "high end masters of multiple forms." So his use of other forms in Darth Plagueis is no contradiction to Fight Saber.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why's that original Fightsaber article not canon?
I'm not sure why it would be non-canon. It came from an issue of Star Wars Insider. (Issue 62, I believe?)
In fact, in an interesting little Lucenoan continuity tidbit, Fight Saber explains that Maul was interested only in Juyo's martial aspects and was unconcerned with "higher" philosophical tactics like dun moch.
Dovetails nicely with Plagueis's commentary. Though The Clone Wars shows Maul can taunt with the best of 'em.
Originally posted by Nai
Oh. I did read your comment regarding that fight. What was your conclusion again? Oh, yeah:"Also, lol @ Sidious "using a lot of force use" during his fight with Maul and Savage."
So. Multiple offensive applications of the Force, all - with the exception of his initial force ownage against the duo - decisive for the fight, aren't enough to say, that Sidious used the force quite a lot? Especially in comparison to virtually all other lightsaber fights we have witnessed?
Nope, considering that the only offensive force move he used during the actual saber duel was on Maul when Maul came flying at him when he had his lightsabers deactivated after doing an unnecessary (rather show-offy) fancy flip kick on Savage. The force pull he used as he was falling only served the purpose to keep the fight going, but it didn't do anything decisive in winning the duel. The only other times he used the force offensively were before and after he had stomped them in pure sabers. Using a lot of offensive force moves during a duel would be what Dooku did during his fight with Ventress and Savage.
Originally posted by Nai
Sure. He didn't attempt to force rape them instantly, which he was apparently capable of. Still, all of his decisive moves in that confrontation - save for the final deactivation of Maul's blades - were applications of the force or prepared by those.
Which force moves were decisive in the actual saber duel against the two? He ended the 2-on-1 by flip kicking Savage. Hopefully your not going to suggest that that show-offy flip kick was needed in order to force push Maul, especially considering that there was a time in that duel when Sidious paused for a moment, allowing them to think through their next move, which was plenty of time for Sidious to use the force on them. Again, Sidious was holding back his offensive force powers.
Originally posted by Nai
And regarding Kenobi: He certainly looked worse against the brothers compared to Sidious. Yet, in terms of sheer bladework, he was actually performing with a higher efficacy than the Sith Lord. In fact, he would probably have defeated the duo, hadn't Maul used the Force to remove him from the scene.
This is where you ignore context. When Sidious was facing Maul and Savage, he was far more relaxed and not nearly as aggressive as Kenobi was. On top of that, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul and didn't even take Savage seriously. Hell, judging from his entire demeanor throughout the entire saber duel, he didn't take either of them seriously and came off as toying around with them, and according to Filoni, Sidious was kicking butt while enjoying himself. Not so much the same can be said about Kenobi's fight against the brothers. Also, as confirmed by Maul in "The Lawless" they weren't trying to kill Kenobi, they wanted to take him captive which explains why Maul demanded that Kenobi surrendered. This would also explain why Maul didn't just shove his saber through Obi Wan when he had Kenobi suspended in mid-air for some time. Kenobi's performance was a one off feat due to a number of circumstances--a feat he most likely would not be able to replicate, otherwise he wouldn't have had his ass handed to him by both brothers individually on other occasions.
Originally posted by Nai
Wow. It has been more than eight years that we have witnessed the RotS commentary declaring, that Windu overpowered Sidious in the lightsaber duel, who in turn was using all he could to kill the Jedi Master, just to melt his own face down. Yet, you still manage to ignore that inconvenient fact?
I don't feel like rehashing this argument again, but you may want to reconsider the fact that Lucas adding in certain details, like Sidious pretending to be weak and losing his powers in order to turn Anakin to the dark side, may have changed the entire context of the whole scene to what Lucas originally planned. Yes the audience did see Mace "overpower" Sidious, but that's not to say that Sidious didn't intend on being overpowered. Hell, even without watching the commentary, there are hints and clues that imply Sidious may have intended on losing this fight, such as his telepathic call, warning Anakin that his death would result in losing hope of saving Padme. Basically, it seems to me that Palpatine wanted Anakin to believe that his life was in danger so that Anakin would be forced to save him. Even after the duel, Windu only threatens to arrest Sidious, but Palpatine wasn't satisfied with this, as he wanted Anakin to believe that his life was in danger (hence the telepathic call), so Palpatine decides to attack Windu with lightning, forcing Windu to change his mind from wanting to arrest him to wanting to kill him.
How can Sidious use all his powers to kill Windu while pretending to be weak at the same time in order to force Anakin to choose sides? Sounds contradicting to me. I mean, Palpatine only attacked with lightning for a few seconds before he started to feign weakness.
Oh, and as for Windu mistaken Anakin's fear for Sidious', that's not contradicted by the film. Anakin doesn't need to be in the same room for Windu to be able to sense his fear.
Originally posted by Nai
Actually, that speaks for the inability of the people writing the Visual Guide to a TV Show for children.
Wow, I missed this comment right here. The fact that you ignore a canon source just because it doesn't fit with your "interpretation" of Sidious feats, shows way more than an extreme bias against the character.
You asserted that Sidious lacked technical skill, but when a source confirms his mastery over all forms, which speaks of his high technical ability, you don't accept it just because there were a few who stood toe to toe with him in saber combat?
^This added to the fact that you take my username far more seriously than I do, seems to suggest you have something personal against Sidious. Was McDiarmid a father of yours who abandoned you or something, seriously? (If so, well I apologize for being too lazy to come up with an original username. I had no idea you would take it so seriously. I just came upon a SW thread, signed up, and used the name of my favorite SW character as my username. I didn't put much thought into it. You seem to be the only one affected by this.)
Or do you seriously no nothing about how fighting works? Sidious having mastery over every form, knowing their sequences and "patterns" enough to teach them to others, is basically what technical skill is, which, as you are seemingly suggesting, isn't the the end all be all in dueling, but just one advantage, in which case I agree. In the context of a duel, however, being able to utilize his level of mastery with such force enhanced strength, speed and precision, would, as I said, make him a saber beast by default. Please explain how that isn't utilizing it in a masterful application in a context of a duel.
Basically, you come to your conclusion that Sidious is not that great with a saber based on his performances against perhaps two of the greatest duelists in the mythos, while choosing to ignore the circumstances of how those two opponents managed to disarm him. In Yoda's case, he disarmed Sidious because Sidious didn't have room to give ground or leap away from Yoda's assault, causing Sidious to almost go over the edge of the platform, which is how Sidious lost his saber. In Mace's case, it is heavily implied in the movie and George Lucas that Sidious may have never intended on being on the winning end of this particular battle, otherwise him and Sidious were fighting at an impasse until Anakin arrived in the room; in fact Sidious was initially overwhelming Windu, despite the latter having help. But if we go by your interpretation that Windu legitimately beat Sidious in a saber duel, it was because Sidious slowed himself down because of fear of falling out the window (fear that was never there, BTW), not because Windu was so far ahead of him in skill. In the movies, Windu ended the duel via a kick, kinda like how Sidious ended his 2-on-1 fight with Maul and Savage, by flooring Savage with a kick, yet you don't seem to credit Sidious's kick to skill? But you do Windu. Or is it just that any time Sidious gets disarmed by his opponents, you just want to assume that it's because of lack of skill on Sidious' part? I mean, I can basically make the same case with Dooku; he must really suck considering he was floored and disarmed by Savage within a couple of blows. I bet you don't ignore the circumstance when it comes to that duel.
Oh, and as for his duel with Luke in DE, it's very likely that Luke may have been tapping into his own untapped potential, while Leia was using battle meditation. In Empire's End, Leia confirms that she had used this power during that fight. And battle meditation can serve to diminish one's abilities while allowing another to use his/her abilities to their fullest.
Originally posted by Nai
And if those two can manage, the list of potential candidates capable of taking Sidious in a lightsaber fight could be rather long.
Like who? Dooku? lmao
For Dooku to be one of the more technical skilled duelists, he sure does use the force to end saber duels more than Sidious does.