ROTS Mace Windu Vs ROTJ Darth Vader

Vader does have better TK feats than Windu, but I'm not so sure Vader is powerful enough to directly overwhelm Windu with the force even if Windu is not amped by vaapad.

Also @Han, I think it was Palpatine's own inner darkness along with Windu's inner darkness that completed vaapad's superconductive loop, not Palpatine's dark side energy. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense, because vaapad was said to use dark emotions as a weapon of light without using the dark side. And if Windu was using Palpatine's dark side energy then he would be using the dark side, which contradicts the whole point of vaapad, unless he fountains the dark side enery back out in the form of light side energy.

Either way, Windu wouldn't receive the same amp against Vader that he did against Palpatine, as Vader is not as powerful as Palpatine nor is he as dark as Palpatine.

Originally posted by ares834
Decent feat. But I fail to see how pushing one of a cliff is as impressive as pulling down a citadel.

Did I say that Windu was more powerful than Vader? The disparity simply isn't sufficient to overcome the Jedi Master's vastly superior dueling ability. It certainly isn't enough given Windu's vaapad, which gives him the edge in the Force fight as well.

😬

Starkiller alone gave Palpatine a good fight. Throw Vader in there and the two would win.

Nope. From what I believe to be the New Essential Chronology, Palpatine is powerful enough to "destroy them both", which fits with the fact that Vader did not try taking on the Emperor, even with his apprentice's help.

Nah. Vader > Anakin (not in the z0ne).

George Lucas and Nick Gillard would disagree with you. Vader in A New Hope barely held an upper hand against a severely out of practice Obi Wan, while the Anakin in RotS was noticeably stronger than his master in his prime. Vader may have improved by RotJ, but he still isn't even as good a duelist as his younger self, let alone Windu.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin is better than them both.

Either way, your responds aren't very convincing. Allow me to say ''so what'' to every of Mace's feats.

And collapsing a cathedrals years before prime>>>pushing an AT-TE in prime.

😆 I dunno if I should take you seriously anymore, since you actually used stalemating a lessened Obi Wan to prove that Vader is more powerful than Mace Windu.

Vaapad nullifies any advantage in the Force Vader may have possessed, not that it would matter because Windu is that much better with a blade.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Either way, Windu wouldn't receive the same amp against Vader that he did against Palpatine, as Vader is not as powerful as Palpatine nor is he as dark as Palpatine.

Debates over vaapad's exact nature aside, the point is that, however much more powerful Vader is than Windu in the Force, vaapad will, at the least, equalize the disparity, thus turning the confrontation back towards the Jedi Master's massive advantage with a blade.

lol @ your reading comprehension. He stalemated him before his prime.

Can we stop wanking Windu? He failed to deal a blow to Ventress. He only stalemated General Grievous.

The difference in power is bigger than the one in skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol @ your reading comprehension. He stalemated him before his prime.

And how does this put him above Master Windu?

Can we stop wanking Windu? He failed to deal a blow to Ventress. He only stalemated General Grievous.

He defeated Palpatine, and was described as being Dooku's equal before his own prime.

The difference in power is bigger than the one in skill.

No. Mace Windu at baseline is >= Dooku. Mace Windu with vaapad can defeat Palpatine (given time to sink into vaapad). This is a one sided affair.

1. I never said it did. If it did, I'd not bother post everything else I did.

2. Victory does not equal superiority bro, and he was never Dooku's equal before his prime.

3. No he's not, Mace and Dooku are equals.

Originally posted by Master Han

Accept it: Windu > Anakin > Vader.

I'd say Windu/Anakin/Dooku are in the same league.

Although I have no issue with putting Windu at the top of that league being the only one of them capable of defeating Sidious.

Originally posted by Master Han
Did I say that Windu was more powerful than Vader? The disparity simply isn't sufficient to overcome the Jedi Master's vastly superior dueling ability. It [b]certainly isn't enough given Windu's vaapad, which gives him the edge in the Force fight as well.[/B]

Aside from the CW micro series, Windu doesn't have any feats that come close to some of Vader's. And I have yet to see Vaapad used in such a way during a force battle.

Originally posted by Master Han
Nope. From what I believe to be the New Essential Chronology, Palpatine is powerful enough to "destroy them both", which fits with the fact that Vader [b]did not try taking on the Emperor, even with his apprentice's help.[/B]

Got the full quote and page number? I want to check it out in myself in full context.

Originally posted by Master Han
George Lucas and Nick Gillard would disagree with you. Vader in A New Hope barely held an upper hand against a severely out of practice Obi Wan, while the Anakin in RotS was noticeably stronger than his master in his prime. Vader may have improved by RotJ, but he still isn't even as good a duelist as his younger self, let alone Windu.

First, Lucas's quote was about lightsaber dueling not all out combat. And secondly, Lucas proceeds to pretty much contradict said quote in the following two movies where the most powerful duelist are old men.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
1. I never said it did. If it did, I'd not bother post everything else I did.

So you're resorting to throwing out a list of utterly unimpressive feats to mask the well cemented fact that Windu > Anakin > Vader?

If anything, your "point" did much to undermine your position, by establishing that Vader is nothing compared to RotS Obi Wan by ANH, and putting a limit to how powerful he reasonably could have gotten by RotJ.

2. Victory does not equal superiority bro, and he was never Dooku's equal before his prime.

Windu defeated Palpatine by using vaapad to channel his dark side energies. Ergo, he would do the same against Vader; his strength in the Force would end up equal to, if not greater than, Vader's own.

So, with Windu having the advantage in bladework, speed, agility, vaapad and shatterpoint, Vader's only remaining upperhand would be his sheer physical strength.

Yet we see that Vader couldn't even use this to obtain an upper hand against RotJ Luke (the novelization makes it clear Luke at least evenly matched him), who, while often underrated around here, certainly does not hold a candle to the inventor of vaapad. Meanwhile, Mace Windu's own immense physical conditioning should make it a lost cause to argue that he could overwhelm him where Luke stood his ground.

3. No he's not, Mace and Dooku are equals.

Assume that this premise is correct. Dooku as of RotS is still on par with an Anakin that is explicitly greater with a blade than Vader by a wide margin.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The pr

👆

Y'all need to step off when the Big Man's talking.

Vader puts up a good fight but losses a vast vast majority... 9/10

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Vader puts up a good fight but losses a vast vast majority... 9/10

That's better KT 👆

isnt mace with vaapad/shatterpoint said to be = to dooku?

superior to dooku

The line about Palpatine killing Marek and Vader together comes from TFU and it's Palpatine himself who says it, which casts it in a dubious light.

On the other hand, Vader doesn't exactly push it either.

is there such a quote saying so? because i believe when dooku was confronting yoda on vjun, something along the lines of, "On even terms, perhaps only mace windu was his equal."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I can't decide who is more overrated, Mace or Obi-Wan?

Vader.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
isnt mace with vaapad/shatterpoint said to be = to dooku?

Apparently the concept of Vapaad is a hard one to grasp. If the above were true which I haven't heard then it's still irrelevant. Vapaad gives a bigger boost to Mace when the opponent is more attuned to the dark side.

This alone enables him to stalemate nearly every major darksider in the universe. Then when you add in his already impressive skills he'll win more than lose.

If he had no vapaad then sure he's not nearly as good. The dark siders of this forum are just bitter that vapaad exists.

but the only reason he was able to fight on par with palpatine was because the fact that the leader of his beloved republic (palpatine) was the dark lord, making him no longer afraid of falling, sinking into vaapad like never before. i dont think this would apply here.

Originally posted by Master Han

He defeated Palpatine, and was described as being Dooku's equal before his own prime.

Prove it was before his prime. Because Vaapad was already developed as were his shatterpoints most likely. And Dooku was also not in his prime as he had not yet become a Sith Lord.

No. Mace Windu at baseline is >= Dooku. Mace Windu with vaapad can defeat Palpatine (given time to sink into vaapad). This is a one sided affair.

No. Count Dooku is equal to Mace Windu on neutral ground according to LOE.

That being said, Mace is going to take this one.

I have a question. Mace and Dooku are equals. But how come Dooku was able to PWN Sora who had help from Tholme with ease but Windu could barley beat Sora 1v1. Can someone explain this to me?, because its really bothering me.