Originally posted by Master Han
So you're resorting to throwing out a list of utterly unimpressive feats to mask the well cemented fact that Windu > Anakin > Vader?
Originally posted by Master Han
If anything, your "point" did much to undermine your position, by establishing that Vader is nothing compared to RotS Obi Wan by ANH, and putting a limit to how powerful he reasonably could have gotten by RotJ.
He's at least RotS Obi-Wan's equal in skill and more powerful than Dooku.
Originally posted by Master Han
Windu defeated Palpatine by using vaapad to channel his dark side energies. Ergo, he would do the same against Vader; his strength in the Force would end up equal to, if not greater than, Vader's own.
Originally posted by Master Han
So, with Windu having the advantage in bladework, speed, agility, vaapad and shatterpoint, Vader's [b]only remaining upperhand would be his sheer physical strength. [/B]
[i]Originally posted by Master Han
Originally posted by Master Han
Assume that this premise is correct. Dooku as of RotS is still on par with an Anakin that is explicitly greater with a blade than Vader by a wide margin.
Originally posted by Master Han
It's the most logical conclusion reconciling his allegedly being Dooku's equal, and his triumph over Palpatine. Especially given that Dark Rendezvous takes place 6 months before the events of RotS.
It is not logical that in decades of saber mastery and training that Mace would magically get a powerboost in the period of 6 months. How is that the most logical conclusion?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It is not logical that in decades of saber mastery and training that Mace would magically get a powerboost in the period of 6 months. How is that the most logical conclusion?
He's fighting on the front lines in the first galactic war in a thousand years. And there's nothing to indicate that he's peaked by AotC (IDK why you label standard progression as a magical "powerboost"😉, given that both Dooku and Sidious continued to grow stronger well into their elder years. And was it not made clear that Windu grew more powerful in his Shatterpoint novel?
I mean, you could make the same argument for Obi Wan, who, while younger than Windu, still has "decades" of saber mastery and training, and yet grew massively more powerful from AotC to RotS. Just like how Dooku grew more powerful between TPM and AotC. It explains how Windu can defeat Sidious in RotS.
Originally posted by Master Han
He's fighting on the front lines in the first galactic war in a thousand years. And there's nothing to indicate that he's peaked by AotC (IDK why you label standard progression as a magical "powerboost"😉, given that both Dooku and Sidious continued to grow stronger well into their elder years. And was it not made clear that Windu grew more powerful in his Shatterpoint novel?
Lightsiders, particularly lightside humans tend to go in the opposite direction in their older years. I.e. Kenobi and Satele Shan.
I mean, you could make the same argument for Obi Wan, who, while younger than Windu, still has "decades" of saber mastery and training, and yet grew massively more powerful from AotC to RotS. Just like how Dooku grew more powerful between TPM and AotC. It explains how Windu can defeat Sidious in RotS.
Except that's just it. Kenobi grew from the time he was a Knight and when he became a Master. But at late CWs-ROTS he was at his peak. After that it was a decline as evidenced by ANH Kenobi. Dooku grew more powerful between TPM and AOTC because he had over a decade to study the Dark Side. A difference between AOTCs Mace and TPM Mace, makes sense because there's 10+ years in between.
Even a difference between AOTC Mace and DR Mace makes sense given the 2 1/2 years of front line action. But between DR Mace and ROTS Mace, the difference between the two should be minimal at best.
Originally posted by Master Han
George Lucas clarifies that Windu "can compete" with Palpatine, with no mention of a once in a lifetime amp.
It isn't a once in a lifetime amp. It's an amp when he's dueling withe the most powerful Sith Lord in history. He won't get such an amp when dueling Tyranus or Vader.
He'll get enough of an amp so that his Force abilities will at least be evenly matched with theirs. With this in mind, his superior saber skills put him massively above Vader.
Now, I think you're assuming that vaapad somehow calculates whether or not the enemy's overall Force power is larger than Windu's, and only tries to bridge the disparity.
If Windu is a 70, and Dooku is a 70, vaapad will add some of Dooku's 70 onto Windu's...there's no need for a disparity.
Originally posted by Master Han
He'll get enough of an amp so that his Force abilities will at least be evenly matched with theirs. With this in mind, his superior saber skills put him massively above Vader.
😬
"Massively"? Nah. Windu wins after a good fight.
And once again I ask, where has Windu used Vaapad to amp his force powers such as telekinesis or telepathy?
Originally posted by ares834
😬"Massively"? Nah. Windu wins after a good fight.
Could you see Windu struggling against RotJ Luke?
And once again I ask, where has Windu used Vaapad to amp his force powers such as telekinesis or telepathy?
Uh, he uses it to draw on his overall Force ability. It's reasonable to extrapolate that he could harness said energies to amp his telekinesis. (and I seem to recall his doing this with telepathy in Shatterpoint)
But I don't think Windu's going to beat Vader through the Force, but rather through his superior dueling abilities.
Originally posted by Master Han
Could you see Windu struggling against RotJ Luke?
No. But I see him struggling with Vader.
Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, he uses it to draw on his overall Force ability. It's reasonable to extrapolate that he could harness said energies to amp his telekinesis. (and I seem to recall his doing this with telepathy in Shatterpoint)
No, it's really not. The novel notes that he reflects Sidious's fury and speed back, basically Mace amped his saber abilities nothing else is mentioned.
Simply put, Vaapad is a saber form (and, yes, a state of mind). Consider when Sidious shoot his lightning what does Mace do? He blocks with his lightsaber. He isn't absorbing the rays and sending his own back rather he reflects them with his saber. Why? Because Vaapad is a saber form. Ultimately, he isn't amping his own force powers off of Sidious's in their duel nor is he ever shown doing so.
Originally posted by ares834
No. But I see him struggling with Vader.
...By RotJ, Luke is Vader's equal with a blade.
No, it's really not. The novel notes that he reflects Sidious's fury and speed back, basically Mace amped his saber abilities nothing else is mentioned.Simply put, Vaapad is a saber form (and, yes, a state of mind).
It's far more literal than that. Mace literally draws on Sidious's own dark side energies.
Consider when Sidious shoot his lightning what does Mace do? He blocks with his lightsaber. He isn't absorbing the rays and sending his own back rather he reflects them with his saber. Why? Because Vaapad is a saber form. Ultimately, he isn't amping his own force powers off of Sidious's in their duel nor is he ever shown doing so.
Actually, Windu's superconducting loop physically reflects Sidious's dark side energy back on himself, something a typical saber user wouldn't be able to do. It's a lightsaber form and a Force technique.