ROTS Mace Windu Vs ROTJ Darth Vader

Originally posted by Master Han
...By RotJ, Luke is Vader's equal with a blade.

ABC logic at work.

Originally posted by Master Han
It's far more literal than that. Mace literally draws on Sidious's own dark side energies.

He does and reflects them back. Not denying that but he has only been shown to amp his own saber abilities not his other abilities.

Originally posted by Master Han
Actually, Windu's superconducting loop physically reflects Sidious's dark side energy back on himself, something a typical saber user wouldn't be able to do. It's a lightsaber form [b]and a Force technique. [/B]

There are other instances of a lightsaber blocking and reflecting lightning. Such as Revan in his battle with Vitiate, it's not unique to Vaapad.

Edit: It's also important to note what happens when Vaapad is pushed beyond it's limit. In this case, Mace's strength fails him yet the lightning keeps reflecting. Further evidence that it his strength that is being amped in this case.

Personally I doubt Vaapad was actually pushed to its limit or that Mace's strength was failing, seeing as he's able to push through the lightning several times until he's leaning over Sidious.

Originally posted by ares834
ABC logic at work.

🙄 You can't just throw that word out as though it were a formal logical fallacy. The transitive property is a common feature in mathematics and logic; it's only fallacious when the analogies don't match up, which is on you to establish.

He does and reflects them back. Not denying that but he has only been shown to amp his own saber abilities not his other abilities.

Uh, he was able to match Palpatine's speed. Speed generated by the Force.

There are other instances of a lightsaber blocking and reflecting lightning. Such as Revan in his battle with Vitiate, it's not unique to Vaapad.

That's not the same thing. 😉 Windu was redirecting Sidious's own dark side energy on himself, thereby melting his face. The novelization makes it clear that this has to do with the Force, not some reflective property of the lightsaber blade.

Edit: It's also important to note what happens when Vaapad is pushed beyond it's limit. In this case, Mace's strength fails him yet the lightning keeps reflecting. Further evidence that it his strength that is being amped in this case.

Regardless of what is being amped, it is through the Force. Windu's speed, and presumably his precognition and Force valar are heightened. Otherwise, Palpatine would have dominated the fight, and could have dispatched him with TK - unless if Windu was powerful enough to resist it outright, in which case I'd question why Vader would pose a threat.

Originally posted by Master Han
🙄 You can't just throw that word out as though it were a formal logical fallacy. The transitive property is a common feature in mathematics and logic; it's only fallacious when the analogies don't match up, which is on you to establish.

You're argument relies on it and it's been shown to be faulty many times. Ultimately though, Vader isn't going to be challenging Windu because of his saber prowess but rather his abilities with the force.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, he was able to match Palpatine's speed. Speed generated by the Force.

Force speed has always been a staple of saber combat like strength. You're not refuting any thing I've stated.

Originally posted by Master Han
Regardless of what is being amped, it is through the [b]Force. Windu's speed, and presumably his precognition and Force valar are heightened. Otherwise, Palpatine would have dominated the fight, and could have dispatched him with TK - unless if Windu was powerful enough to resist it outright, in which case I'd question why Vader would pose a threat. [/B]

So, you've brought nothing new to the table? I know all this! I'm curious for where you get the notion that Windu can amp his TK or similar force powers off a dark jedi not his own physical abilities. You claimed he could do so; so I would like concrete evidence.

Otherwise, it's vague speculation and baseless conjecture. The same thing you are accusing Neph of in the Scourge/Kenobi thread.

Originally posted by ares834
You're argument relies on it and it's been shown to be faulty many times.

Are you seriously under the impression that "ABC logic" is a singular form of argument that must be either valid or invalid under all circumstances?

Give me an example of ABC logic not working, and I can gladly point out why it doesn't work. You can't draw the conclusion that it doesn't work from...the premise that it doesn't work. The transitive property isn't rendered automatically null because some persons have misused it. Yours is the equivalent to the arguments of those who casually dismiss all statistical data as "damned statistics" without bothering to elaborate on their positions.

Ultimately though, Vader isn't going to be challenging Windu because of his saber prowess but rather his abilities with the force.

I seem to recall Palpatine trying this out. How did that go?

Force speed has always been a staple of saber combat like strength. You're not refuting any thing I've stated.

LOL, wut? How does being able to move at supernatural speeds have anything to do with execution of lightsaber forms and techniques?

So, you've brought nothing new to the table? I know all this! I'm curious for where you get the notion that Windu can amp his TK or similar force powers off a dark jedi not his own physical abilities. You claimed he could do so; so I would like concrete evidence.

When did I argue that Windu would be using TK on Vader? His strength in the Force is amped, and his defenses are also boosted, given his ability to fend off Palpatine's lightning at point blank range; logically, he should be able to deflect Vader's TK. Unless if that's more powerful than Sidious' FL?

Otherwise, it's vague speculation and baseless conjecture. The same thing you are accusing Neph of in the Scourge/Kenobi thread.

You're right, your argument is vague speculation and baseless conjecture. What we do know is that Mace Windu defeated Palpatine in a duel, while Vader couldn't best RotJ Luke.

Originally posted by Master Han
Are you seriously under the impression that "ABC logic" is a singular form of argument that must be either valid or invalid under all circumstances?

The obvious one is Dooku > Kenobi > Anakin. Ultimately, the flaw is that characters have certain strength and weakness and certain circumstances are involved.

For example, when Luke defeats Vader, Vader is conflicted and never unleashed his force powers. Yor line of argumentation fails to take these into consideration, hence why it is faulty. Nor does it take into consideration Vader's other showings.

Anyway, here is another fun ABC argument without taking circumstances into consideration.

Vader > Kar Vastor > Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Master Han
When did I argue that Windu would be using TK on Vader? His strength in the Force is amped, and his defenses are also boosted, given his ability to fend off Palpatine's lightning at point blank range; logically, he should be able to deflect Vader's TK. Unless if that's more powerful than Sidious' FL?

He probably will be able to block Vader's TK albeit not easily. I thought you were arguing that Windu's TK would be amped up to Vader's level.

It's also seems that lightning is typically portrayed as easier to block against than TK.

Originally posted by Master Han
You're right, your argument [b]is vague speculation and baseless conjecture. What we do know is that Mace Windu defeated Palpatine in a duel, while Vader couldn't best RotJ Luke. [/B]

My argument relies on no speculation at all. After all, I never once said Windu or Vader would be doing something they have never been portrayed as performing.

And in case you're wondering I did say Windu would win more often than not. Just not with the apparent ease you seem to believe.

Originally posted by ares834
The obvious one is Dooku > Kenobi > Anakin. Ultimately, the flaw is that characters have certain strength and weakness and certain circumstances are involved.

The two Anakins weren't the same. One was Zonakin. The other was Emokin.

Zonakin >>> Dooku > Kenobi > Emokin

For example, when Luke defeats Vader, Vader is conflicted and never unleashed his force powers. Yor line of argumentation fails to take these into consideration, hence why it is faulty. Nor does it take into consideration Vader's other showings.

The RotJ novelization appears to contradict your line of argument, especially given that Luke was even more hesitant to face his father. Now, EU sources suggest, with believability, that Vader could have easily killed Luke with telekinesis; but it is difficult to deny that they were evenly matched in sabers.

Anyway, here is another fun ABC argument without taking circumstances into consideration.

Vader > Kar Vastor > Mace Windu.

Funny. Since I don't know much about Kar Vastor, enlighten me as to where it's stated that Vader is his superior. And did Windu not defeat Kar Vastor? Did he not only lose in hand to hand combat?

He probably will be able to block Vader's TK albeit not easily. I thought you were arguing that Windu's TK would be amped up to Vader's level.

I could argue that, but I don't see the need to.

It's also seems that lightning is typically portrayed as easier to block against than TK.

Path of Destruction implies otherwise. There's a reason why Anakin and Obi Wan didn't just Force push the other off one of their CGI-balancing beams. When prepared and focused, Force defenses are exceptionally difficult to penetrate with TK.

My argument relies on no speculation at all. After all, I never once said Windu or Vader would be doing something they have never been portrayed as performing.

Right. Vader has never demonstrated saber mastery on Windu's level. He would lose to his RotS counterpart. His RotS counterpart, at baseline, still isn't on Windu's level. And Windu has vaapad.

And in case you're wondering I did say Windu would win more often than not. Just not with the apparent ease you seem to believe.

Under what circumstances do you see Vader taking the victory?

Vader was touted as Vastor's significant superior by Nick Rostu in one of the Coruscant Nights book.

Originally posted by Master Han
The two Anakins weren't the same. One was Zonakin. The other was Emokin.

Zonakin >>> Dooku > Kenobi > Emokin

Which is my point. The emotional states of the characters are critical to the duel.

Originally posted by Master Han
The RotJ novelization appears to contradict your line of argument, especially given that Luke was even more hesitant to face his father. Now, EU sources suggest, with believability, that Vader could have easily killed Luke with telekinesis; but it is difficult to deny that they were evenly matched in sabers.

From the movie itself: "Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate."

And Luke only overcame Vader when he went into rage mode, so yeah, neither character had their typical emotional state here.

Anyway, while RotJ Luke isn't quite on Windu's level he certainly isn't the slouch people make him out to be. Heck, after ESB Vader muses that his son was the most powerful Jedi he ever fought which would put him beyond even RotS Kenobi if taken as fact.

Originally posted by Master Han
Funny. Since I don't know much about Kar Vastor, enlighten me as to where it's stated that Vader is his superior. And did Windu not defeat Kar Vastor? Did he not only lose in [b]hand to hand combat?[/B]

"Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen any¬one or anything to match him.
Until now.
Until he stood, unarmed, before Darth Vader.
As if being armed would make a difference, he thought. He could be tricked out with wrist rockets, a hold-out shooter, a pair of DL-44s, and a disruptor rifle, and he might just as well be carrying a pointed stick.
Vastor had been animal ferocity and menace, barely contained. He'd thrummed with the power of the dark side. His arms, legs, torso, and shoulders had been layered with striated muscle; he looked like he could have lifted a pregnant grasser over his head. One-handed.
Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor. It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.
The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was—contained. Pent.
Waiting."

From Jedi Twilight.

Originally posted by Master Han
Path of Destruction implies otherwise. There's a reason why Anakin and Obi Wan didn't just Force push the other off one of their CGI-balancing beams. When prepared and focused, Force defenses are exceptionally difficult to penetrate with TK.

Anakin and Kenobi's force powers were also equal at the time. Not to mention how often in the movies do characters really use TK when it would be beneficial? Hardly ever.

Also AotC Kenobi is able to casually block Dooku's lightning yet, in RotS, is effortlessly ragdolled by the Sith.

Originally posted by Master Han
Right. Vader has never demonstrated saber mastery on Windu's level. He would lose to his RotS counterpart. His RotS counterpart, at baseline, still isn't on Windu's level. And Windu has vaapad.

I'd say Anakin's skill with a blade is certainly nearly at the level of Mace's. Mace's only real advantage I would give over Anakin is Vaapad. It's a pretty big advantage though. 😛

Originally posted by Master Han
Under what circumstances do you see Vader taking the victory?

If he manages to smash through Windu's defenses with the force.

Originally posted by ares834
Which is my point. The emotional states of the characters are critical to the duel.

And? Neither's emotional state is specified to be compromised here, nor was Windu compromised against Palpatine.

From the movie itself: "Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate."

And Luke only overcame Vader when he went into rage mode, so yeah, neither character had their typical emotional state here.

That Vader didn't want to kill Luke doesn't mean he could afford the luxury of going easy on him; the novelization makes it clear that they were evenly matched. And I'd point out, again, that Luke was even more hesitant to fight than Vader.

Anyway, while RotJ Luke isn't quite on Windu's level he certainly isn't the slouch people make him out to be. Heck, after ESB Vader muses that his son was the most powerful Jedi he ever fought which would put him beyond even RotS Kenobi if taken as fact.

Vader tends to pretend that everything before his injuries never happened, so even if we assume that he's referring to realized power, and not potential, as the two are often used interchangeably, at best we put him above ANH Obi Wan.

But, that's rather difficult to believe, in light of the fact that Vader toyed with Luke and fought relatively evenly with his master. Vader couldn't have improved that much by ESB.

"Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen any¬one or anything to match him.
Until now.
Until he stood, unarmed, before Darth Vader.
As if being armed would make a difference, he thought. He could be tricked out with wrist rockets, a hold-out shooter, a pair of DL-44s, and a disruptor rifle, and he might just as well be carrying a pointed stick.
Vastor had been animal ferocity and menace, barely contained. He'd thrummed with the power of the dark side. His arms, legs, torso, and shoulders had been layered with striated muscle; he looked like he could have lifted a pregnant grasser over his head. One-handed.
Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor. It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.
The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was—contained. Pent.
Waiting."

From Jedi Twilight.

I fail to see how Nick is a reliable judge of Force power. And Vastor only outmatched Windu in hand to hand combat.

Anakin and Kenobi's force powers were also equal at the time. Not to mention how often in the movies do characters really use TK when it would be beneficial? Hardly ever.

It wouldn't necessarily be beneficial against trained Force users.

Also AotC Kenobi is able to casually block Dooku's lightning yet, in RotS, is effortlessly ragdolled by the Sith.

Dooku likely saw an opening and beat him to the draw, as implied in RoDV.

I'd say Anakin's skill with a blade is certainly nearly at the level of Mace's. Mace's only real advantage I would give over Anakin is Vaapad. It's a pretty big advantage though. 😛

That debate aside, RotS Anakin >> Vader in bladework.

If he manages to smash through Windu's defenses with the force.

😐 Palpatine couldn't.

Originally posted by Master Han
And? Neither's emotional state is specified to be compromised here, nor was Windu compromised against Palpatine.

That Vader didn't want to kill Luke doesn't mean he could afford the luxury of going easy on him; the novelization makes it clear that they were evenly matched. And I'd point out, again, that Luke was even more hesitant to fight than Vader.

Umm... Vader is conflicted. That means he isn't operating at his best. Luke, by contrast, only seems to become hesitant when he realizes he is embracing the dark side which he is using throughout much of the duel.

Actually, reading the duel in RotJ I have to revise my judgement of Luke. Luke's frenzied attack was apparently beyond anything Vader had ever faced. Even more impressive, Palaptine actually fears RotJ Luke.

Originally posted by Master Han
Vader tends to pretend that everything before his injuries never happened, so even if we assume that he's referring to realized power, and not potential, as the two are often used interchangeably, at best we put him above ANH Obi Wan.

😬

No, he doesn't. He often muses on the Anakin's weaknesses, vulnerabilities, and failures.

Originally posted by Master Han
But, that's rather difficult to believe, in light of the fact that Vader toyed with Luke and fought relatively evenly with his master. Vader couldn't have improved that much by ESB.

The Death Star novel makes it clear that Kenobi was completely outmatched by Vader.

Originally posted by Master Han
I fail to see how Nick is a reliable judge of Force power.

Because he is a force sensitive... The fact that he feels such a massive gap in power between the two certainly shows us that Vader is the greater.

Originally posted by Master Han
That debate aside, RotS Anakin >> Vader in bladework.

Proof please.

Originally posted by Master Han
😐 Palpatine couldn't.

Palpatine didn't even try in the movie. So to say he couldn't is, well, faulty. But, in the novel, he almost beats Windu when he uses it.

Originally posted by Master Han
😐 Palpatine couldn't.

👇

ROTS script
Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down.

👆

Originally posted by ares834
Umm... Vader is conflicted. That means he isn't operating at his best. Luke, by contrast, only seems to become hesitant when he realizes he is embracing the dark side which he is using throughout much of the duel.

Luke, actually, refuses to fight Vader and deactivates his lightsaber on multiple occasions.

😬

No, he doesn't. He often muses on the Anakin's weaknesses, vulnerabilities, and failures.

And lashes at Luke when he tries to use "Anakin". And refuses to think of Padme's name in Death Star. ESB Luke can't possibly be above RotS Obi Wan, because we know from OOU sources that Anakin in RotS is a greater duelist than his later self.

The Death Star novel makes it clear that Kenobi was completely outmatched by Vader.

😐 It merely mentions that Vader had the advantage.

Because he is a force sensitive... The fact that he feels such a massive gap in power between the two certainly shows us that Vader is the greater.

I don't see how being slightly Force sensitive makes him an accurate judge of character powers. Revan and Malak, themselves far more attuned to the Force, thought that they could take on Vitiate, for example.

But, again, Windu was only losing to Vastor in hand to hand combat. 😬

Proof please.

I'm sure you've heard of the commentary?

Palpatine didn't even try in the movie.

Because Windu was too powerful?

So to say he couldn't is, well, faulty. But, in the novel, he almost beats Windu when he uses it.

"almost"?

Han
I don't see how being slightly Force sensitive makes him an accurate judge of character powers. Revan and Malak, themselves far more attuned to the Force, thought that they could take on Vitiate, for example.

...Before having met him. Rostu, on the other hand, has met both Vastor and Vader and would be able to sense which possesses the greater power.

Unless one of them happened to be shielding themselves in the Force or clouding his senses.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What? I'm pointing out his saber feats, knowledge of forms and techniques in an attempt to show that Vader would hold his own in a duel.

And you failed epically, since none of your arguments do anything to put him on Windu's level.

We know he's ANH Kenobi's equal as per ANH. By ESB, he's far more formidable (as a swordsman).

Yes, and your bringing up the former point does nothing but make your argument more of a stretch. You'd have to conclude that Vader improved through ANH to ESB as significantly as Obi Wan did from AotC to RotS.

He's at least RotS Obi-Wan's equal in skill and more powerful than Dooku.

He's more powerful than Dooku, but there's nothing to suggest that he's a match for RotS Obi Wan with a blade.

No, he defeated him by abusing a shatterpoint.

🙄 That's like saying he defeated him with a kick; the most significant contributor, beyond his baseline talents, was vaapad. And Vader, being a broken man in a vulnerable suit, is bound to have plenty of shatterpoints.

So your primary point in Vader's favor, that he's more powerful in the Force, fails to give him the edge against the superconducting loop.

Uh, no. The advantage in bladework is small, as is the speed advantage.

The speed advantage is pretty huge.

Vader is a [i]far[/] more powerful, masterful and potent telekinetic, not to mention, as you said, stronger, and knows a variety of powers such as Alter Environment.

😆 "masterful"?

So what? Luke is close to Mace's level.

At this point? No, he isn't. Subsequent literature portrays him as exceptionally powerful, but not yet top tier. He still often struggles against random ass dark jedi as late as JA, for example.

Come to the point.

😆 I thought it was obvious enough, but there are two obvious chains here:

Windu >= Anakin > Vader
and
Windu + vaapad/shatterpoint >= Sidious > Vader

The main advantages Vader possesses in duels:

1. Force power - Windu will draw on his own reserves with vaapad.
2. Physical strength - Windu himself is no weakling, and we see from Luke's performance that this isn't difficult to counteract with a skilled duelist
3. Technical skills - whilst Vader has combined various high level forms, Windu has taken juyo, which requires a high level mastery of various forms, and perfected it into "the deadliest" lightsaber style.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...Before having met him.

They should have been able to sense his power, at least before they entered his throne room.

You could similarly point towards Anakin's misjudging Dooku, or even Rahn Kota's misjudging Starkiller/Vader.

Originally posted by Master Han
He still often struggles against random ass dark jedi as late as JA, for example.

Desaan?

Originally posted by Master Han
Luke, actually, refuses to fight Vader and deactivates his lightsaber on multiple occasions.

He does it once. And that's after he forsakes the dark side.

Originally posted by Master Han
And lashes at Luke when he tries to use "Anakin". And refuses to think of Padme's name in Death Star. ESB Luke can't possibly be above RotS Obi Wan, because we know from OOU sources that Anakin in RotS is a greater duelist than his later self.

Sources that has basically been contradicted by the following movies. I'll expand on this later.

Originally posted by Master Han
😐 It merely mentions that Vader had the advantage.

A sizable one. It starts off describing Vader easily blocking Kenobi's attacks and from there it describes Kenobi as weakening.

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't see how being slightly Force sensitive makes him an accurate judge of character powers. Revan and Malak, themselves far more attuned to the Force, thought that they could take on Vitiate, for example.

Eh? I'm not sure what point you are making here. Revan and Malak had never met Vitiate before thinking they could defeat him.

Anyway, the sheer discrepancy that Nick notices about the force power of the two suggest Vader is at the very least superior, if not vastly superior. Unless, of course, one of them is concealing their force power.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm sure you've heard of the commentary?

I'm assuming you are talking about the "crippled men/old men" comments, yes? If so, Lucas made those comments during the making of TPM. However, in the following two movies we see "old men" as being by far the most dangerous combatants and a "crippled" warrior actually managing to challenge a Jedi. Basically, it seems Lucas has straight up contradicted those comments in his subsequent movies.

Originally posted by Master Han
"almost"?

Yes, he almost shoves him out a window and Mace only survives after a "desperate" readjustment using the force. Tempest also provided another sequence in which Sidious overpowers Windu with the Force.

Anyway, it seems we are more or less at an impasse. It's quite clear that neither of us is going to convince the other; so, if you bother replying to this post I'm unlikely to reply back.

Didn't Windu think Vastor had as much power as Yoda? I'm suspicious of Vader being so much stronger than him myself.

It's been awhile since I read the novel, but I believe he was talking about potential in that case.

I seem to recall the term "raw power" and how it was on a level with Yoda and Anakin.