ROTS Count Dooku Vs ROTS Mace Windu

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. This won't help him against Dooku. He doesn't fight with aggression or rage, but rather finese and calm. This will give Mace no advantage here.

2. Shatterpoint rarely aids Mace in battle, and has never done something that important while fighting. The closest thing is sensing that Sidious trusted Anakin.

3. As if Mace could defeat Sidious in an actual fight. Get over it, kid. Mace was nothing but bait for Anakin to take.

4. Dooku's TK feats are firmly superior to Mace's. Still, it can be said that the are relative in level of ability with it. But TK is not the Force's only application.

5. I doubt Sidious could have done it quite that easily in different circumstance. Also--That's Sidious, not Mace.

6. Mace is not known for strength, he's known for speed, aggression, and unpredictability. Anakin and Saesee Tiin are more strength-oriented. Mace is not a power duelist. XD

7. In that same book where this fight takes place, it clearly states on neutral ground that Mace and Dooku are equals. Thus Mace would do no better with said amp.

8. Mace can only compete with Sidious due to the superconducting loop, which will not be as effective against Dooku.

9. Perhaps Dooku is not a 9 as a duelist (Though it's not confirmed that he's not a 9, he just wasn't confirmed to be one) he still makes up for it with his superior Force Competence.

Dooku and Mace are equals.

1. DS energies flow in him and Yoda sensed them RIGHT AWAY. If there are darkside energies flowing in him.. it stands to reason Mace can amp off of them. Stop being obtuse. I already proved energies can be sensed in dooku and thus he's using them.

2. Actually SP allowed Mace to beat somebody superior to Dooku. SP allowed mace to break the window.. KNOWING ti would slow sids spped down and make him loose footing on the wet ground. Did you forget that little part?

3. Mace did beat Sids and OVERPOWERED HIM per Lucas. There is little next to no evidence that Sids threw the entire fight. He was disarmed and overpowered by Mace PERIOD. The only thing you could say.. is he faked being as weak as he was at the end. But the Mace disarmed him and dealt with his force attacks. me and master han have driven off the notion that Sids threw the entire fight. We can do it again with you two if you want.

4. Actually they are firmly above Mace's... please prove this point.

5. Mace beat Sidious so thus he could very well do that.. and probably easier being that he would get a big amp off the brothers.

6. You have no clue what you're talking about here. Mace species are SPECIFICALLY known for their strength. His saber style is an aggressive strength and speed based form. It absolutly gives him an advantage over Dooku's style

7. Words about being equal mean very little. Actions mean more. Mace beat somebody tha is Dooku's superior in virtually every single way. That counts for more than random quotes about being equal and sparring. Feats > narration.

8. It will be in effect Dooku is a confirmed DS who's energies can be felt almost immediatly by some. it will be in effect.

9. His supposed superior TK, which isn't really superior, wont win him the fight. The fight will come down to Sabers and Mace will win.

Originally posted by Zett
1, 2 - I already proved, that with Vaapad and SP they are about equals.
3 - I believe that Sidious threw the fight.
4 - As NewGuy01 said, Dooku's TK skills are superior.
5 - It was Sidious, I doubt, that Mace would be able to do that. I'm not even sure about Yoda.
6 - As DP said, Dooku's Makashi can fend of a powerful attacks. You have to look at Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan from E3. In a few situations, it looks like he's equaly strong to both of them. Only Anakin, when he started to use his full strenght (physical and in the force) is able to overcome the Count. Mace isn't physicaly as strong as Anakin and Anakins is stronger with the force as well.
7 - None from the movies is able to stand a chance against Yoda in lightsaber fight. Sidious lost to him very quickly, Dooku lost to him twice (but at the end wasn't disarmed like Sidious).
8 - Yeah, and later said, that Palpatine threw the force fight. Gj.
9 - Perhaps is, and perhaps not. All we do know, is that he was able to easily deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan (both tier 8 swordsmen at the moment), and lost only to Anakin , who reached his prime at this fight.

And someone as you called me fanboy? You're pretty funny guy 🙂

1. Actually you didn't prove this at all.... Mace will get an amp from Dooku and will feed off his energies. Period. Said amp is more than enough to turn the tide of a fight of near equals. Prove Dooku doesn't exhibit an DS energies..

3. You can believe what you want but proof is on the side of Sids not throwing the fight and it's SIGNIFICANTLY on the side of him not throwing the fight. If you care to debate this point.. I can shut your arguments down just like I did all the others who tried to peddle this theory. Just say the word and we'll see how has more proof.

4. Prove his skills are superior.. which feats?

5. mace beat sidious... so why woudln't Mace be able to do that? Not to mention the brothers alos have DS energies flowing through them.. thus mace will get a nice amp from them. If sidious can.. Mace more cetainly can.

6. Anakin is not stronger in the force at the time of ROTS.. That is a complete and total lie. He has the potential to be stronger than Mace in the force feats.. but he isn't there yet. Further, the ROTS novelization makes it clear (as dp admitted) that Dooku's style is vulnerable to powerful attacks because it only uses one had when in a saber fight. Thus two handed strikes can overcome Dooku's style. This is also stated in the essential guide. Dooku's style is vulnerable to powerful striking attacks as it can eventually wear down that form. Windu is known for his strength and aggression thus his style will tax Dooku

7. Point is he lost.. and lost while getting an amp. You amp Mace in a fight with Yoda... I'm confident he doesn't get disarmed or lose a lightsaber fight against Yoda. Overall he might still lose... but he would certainly not lose the saber portion of it like Sids and Dooku did WHILE AMPED mind you

8.. HE WAS OVERPOWERED AND DISARMED. He had a saber at his throat.. HE LOST THE FIGHT PER LUCAS. The only portion o fthe fight he faked was after again Mace handled his lighting attack and it was deforming Sids and he was struggling himself. He thus decided ti was bettter to try and fake being weak and out of energy so Anakin could step in. That doesn't change the fact that he was OVERPOWERED and DISARMED and tried to kill Mace with his lighting but only deformed himself from it arcing back at him.

9.. Actually he didn't reach his prime.. He only became a 9 in saber combat once he turned to the DS. he was an 8 before that. So Anakin as a 8 beat dooku.. so we can say with certainty dooku is no 9 like mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Please explain the exact mechanics of how this will give Mace the win over Dooku. As well as an explanation for why those same mechanics did not give Windu a decided edge over Sidious or heck even give Sora Bulq a decided edge over Dooku.

And I want EVIDENCE.

Something he had at the times when Dooku used to beat him sparring. Something he had when Mace was named to be Dooku's equal during the Clone Wars.

Makashi much like Soresu can be used very defensively in combat. Both Vapaad and Shatterpoint will have a difficult time getting through it's defenses.

PROVE Sidious is better than Dooku in every imaginable way including Saber technical skill and Saber defenses.

Again I want EVIDENCE, something you seem to be lacking.

Also your double standards are at work again. Whenever I asked you to explain how Kenobi >/= Skywalker > Dooku >> Kenobi, you always claimed that nothing needs to be explained there, it's just different styles at work.

Dooku has the better feats and is the confirmed "Most Learned" in the ways of the force. Not to mention you can't always break it down into 1.Sabers, 2.Force to decide the all out, because sometimes the all out is a completely different game. Which is very applicable to Dooku who is superb at combining Sabers and Force attacks together as demonstrated throughout his Movie, Animation and EU appearances.

So again PROVE Dooku's Tk won't effect Mace. Prove Mace will win the Saber fight. Again you lack EVIDENCE.

Wow! Wow! So much wrong with this. I can't believe you even brought this up. This is the most irrelevant argument ever.

Firstly, I'm sorry, who are we arguing here again?

I mean wow this is seriously going beyond A>B>C. This is more like B beat D & E >> than C Beat D&F, therefore A>C.

A more direct example would be Dooku pasting Bulq and Tholme much more easily than Mace was able to handle just Bulq.

Not to mention Sidious used his far superior force powers (to both Mace and Dooku) to aid him in pasting Maul and Opress, as well as a completely different combat style to both of them (Jar Kai).

And weren't you just going on a few posts ago about how it's much easier for Dooku to beat Ventress and Grievous because he trained them? Did you completely forget who it was who trained Maul?!

And didn't Dooku almost beat a superior duo with Kenobi and Skywalker? And didn't Dooku completely STOMP the guy, who you keep arguing has a completely legitimate win over Maul and Opress?!

Yeah this argument fails on several levels. But your double standards are what stand out as usual.

This is actually a complete lie. Prove this to me! EVIDENCE PLEASE.

Dooku has fended off someone MORE POWERFUL than Mace, in the form of Yoda.

Makashi is an ideal style to fend off powerful attacks. Almost as good as Soresu I'd say. It doesn't generate the same kinetic energy because it's a one handed style and won't generate the same kinetic energy as 2 handed blows. But it still easily deals with power blows by giving ground and slanting the blows to the side.

Again No eveidence and proof you don't really know much about the different Saber forms. Makashi is the best for fencing. End of story.

Yeah in the same source that confirms Dooku >/= Windu. Yeah you can't just pick and choose which parts of a source you like KT.

And you clearly have to be Yoda, Sidious, Mace or Skywalker to compete against Count Dooku, so I guess no one else has a chance at beating Skywalker right?

Refer back to your double standards of Kenobi >/= Skywalker > Dooku >> Kenobi.

Speculation. Again no proof. But Dooku was shown fending off a superior level 9 to Mace(Yoda) in the movies.

Your Mace fanboyism isn't helping to provide any solid arguments or EVIDENCE.

1. Explain the exact mechanics.. LOL.. You're better than this DP.. do read the ROTS and Shatterpoint and you'll find the exact mechanics. Suffice to say they lay it out very nicely and you've already been shown this numerous times. I'm not going to induldge somebody who acts like he doesn't know something he's known for years. Are you claiming Vaapad won't work against Dooku or give him any amp? If so, then you need to prove it. We know Mace can get an amp from a DS.. thus it's on you to prove it won't give him one against DS dooku

2. Narration about sparring again eh? That is the best you can do? I've already shown how sparring means very little and not even close to comparable to an actual fight. You keep on relying on narration.. I'm relying on feats.

3. You just admitted Dooku's style is susceptible to powerful two hand striking forms like forms 6 and 7. That is exactly what Mace has. He is known for his strength and power. The ROTS make it clear that Anakin's aggressive powerful attacks were taxing dooku EACH AND EVERY TIME Dooku merely blocked them. Do you deny this? Do you also deny Mace is from a species known for their strength?

4. I need to prove Sidious is superior to Dooku? Are you being an idiot again DP? Do you think Sidious is doou's supeior? I know you do.. and thus it doesn't matter if you have an issue with in virtually every way imanginable line. The fact is he's his noted superior. Thus mace beating somebody superior to him... still means he shoudl beat Dooku. So tell me then.. which ways are Dooku supeiror to Sids?

5. Should I post your quotes where you say their TK feats are about the same (which they are). Should I quote you.. or are you going to admit to saying this? Thus where was I wrong saying their TK feats are about the same.. when you've said the exact same thing. You make this too easy DP.

5. Dooku didn't beat a superior duo.. in fact he lost one via one even. He lost to somebody that was a confirmed 8 in dueling and a relative noob in his training next to Dooku. Yes Dooku lost to him solo.. let alone not beating them as a team. Sids beat the duo without an amp mace will have a gainst them.

6. You need to prove Dooku's TK will win him the fight and Mace won't be able to deal with it. I don't need to prove your case. You need to learn how evidence works. If you believe Dooku's TK will win the day you need to prove it. I don't need to prove a negative. All I do need to do.. is show somebody with superior TK to dooku.. tyring it on Mace and mace countering it and not being pushing out the window. Again we go back to Mace dealing with somebody superior to Dooku.

7. Fending off? You mean both fights he was on the losing end of both times.. once while he was even amped and Yoda injured. That is the best proof you can come up with?

8. Dooku lost to a level 8 in anakin... Lucas states you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sids.. No mention of Dooku at all.. who has expressed his clear inferiority to Sids via narration. So neither dooku nor lucas believe Dooku can compete with Sids.. but what we do know is the no. 1 source for canon says Mace can.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. Explain the exact mechanics.. LOL.. You're better than this DP.. do read the ROTS and Shatterpoint and you'll find the exact mechanics. Suffice to say they lay it out very nicely and you've already been shown this numerous times. I'm not going to induldge somebody who acts like he doesn't know something he's known for years. Are you claiming Vaapad won't work against Dooku or give him any amp? If so, then you need to prove it. We know Mace can get an amp from a DS.. thus it's on you to prove it won't give him one against DS dooku

Concession accepted. You have no idea how Vapaad is going to give Mace the winning edge over Dooku, when it didn't give him the winning edge over Sidious. Best it did was negate Sidious's power advantage. That won't be an issue for Dooku. Especially not with such an elegant and precise fencing style like Makashi.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Narration about sparring again eh? That is the best you can do? I've already shown how sparring means very little and not even close to comparable to an actual fight. You keep on relying on narration.. I'm relying on feats.

Beating him in sparring is a feat. Not to mention you've ignored the part how they are called equals in narration very late in the clone war.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
3. You just admitted Dooku's style is susceptible to powerful two hand striking forms like forms 6 and 7. That is exactly what Mace has. He is known for his strength and power. The ROTS make it clear that Anakin's aggressive powerful attacks were taxing dooku EACH AND EVERY TIME Dooku merely blocked them. Do you deny this? Do you also deny Mace is from a species known for their strength?

What did I admit? I think you need to go back and read what I posted.

Makashi is the best form for fencing. It is not weak to form 4,5 or 7 just because those forms choose to use 2 handed strikes Lol.

Urmm Dooku fended off all of Anakin's blows until Anakin went into Zone mode. Dooku also fended off all of Yoda's blows. Both those 2 have more raw power than Windu, so please explain to me why on Earth Dooku will not be able to fend off Windu's blows.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
4. I need to prove Sidious is superior to Dooku? Are you being an idiot again DP? Do you think Sidious is doou's supeior? I know you do.. and thus it doesn't matter if you have an issue with in virtually every way imanginable line. The fact is he's his noted superior. Thus mace beating somebody superior to him... still means he shoudl beat Dooku. So tell me then.. which ways are Dooku supeiror to Sids?

Oh he's "noted" to be superior. Well Mace is "noted" to be Dooku's equal, and that's the best case scenario for Mace that's "noted."

Yes exactly what he's better than him at does matter. Of course it matters. Only a TRUE Idiot would claim it doesn't. In fact it's the whole reason we end up with the whole A>B>C>A scenarios.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
5. Should I post your quotes where you say their TK feats are about the same (which they are). Should I quote you.. or are you going to admit to saying this? Thus where was I wrong saying their TK feats are about the same.. when you've said the exact same thing. You make this too easy DP.

Approx the same. But Dooku has slightly better mastery over TK. Hence why he can dispose of people like Bulq and Kenobi so damn easily.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
5. Dooku didn't beat a superior duo.. in fact he lost one via one even. He lost to somebody that was a confirmed 8 in dueling and a relative noob in his training next to Dooku. Yes Dooku lost to him solo.. let alone not beating them as a team. Sids beat the duo without an amp mace will have a gainst them.

What the heck are you talking about. You actually have the nerve to carry on this point? Who the heck was the level 8 who beat Dooku? Please don't tell me your calling ZonAkin a level 8 now.

Dooku almost defeated Kenobi and Skywalker together until Skywalker went up a level or 2.

Dooku completely stomped Kenobi, the guy you claim can defeat both Maul and Opress together. So by your own logic Dooku can completely stomp Maul and Opress together. Whose the idiot now?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
6. You need to prove Dooku's TK will win him the fight and Mace won't be able to deal with it. I don't need to prove your case. You need to learn how evidence works. If you believe Dooku's TK will win the day you need to prove it. I don't need to prove a negative. All I do need to do.. is show somebody with superior TK to dooku.. tyring it on Mace and mace countering it and not being pushing out the window. Again we go back to Mace dealing with somebody superior to Dooku.

I don't need to prove anything, because I never claimed Dooku's TK will win him the day. I claimed that Dooku with his slightly Superior mastery over TK, and his slightly Superior fencing skill and with his talent for carrying out simultaneous force and saber attacks during combat and with his defensive saber style, could hold off Mace all day.

Basically I'm arguing that even if Dooku has trouble overpowering Mace, he could stalemate him any day.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
7. Fending off? You mean both fights he was on the losing end of both times.. once while he was even amped and Yoda injured. That is the best proof you can come up with?

I think you need to watch the AOTC fight again. Dooku wasn't giving ground at all, and was fending off all of Yoda's aggressive attacks. Attacks which are far more powerful than Mace Windu's attacks.

And LOL at the Amped Dooku who 1) Also fended off Yoda Saber attacks pretty damn well, and 2) Was confirmed in the same source, and same damn fight, as Mace's equal.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
8. Dooku lost to a level 8 in anakin... Lucas states you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sids.. No mention of Dooku at all.. who has expressed his clear inferiority to Sids via narration. So neither dooku nor lucas believe Dooku can compete with Sids.. but what we do know is the no. 1 source for canon says Mace can.

LOL at calling ZonAnakin a level 8. Seriously KT your losing it. Dooku almsot stomped 2 level 8's together (Kenobi and normal Anakin). Gillard said that Anakin using his rage becomes a level 9. That's exactly what Zone Anakin was doing, using his rage, and using the dark side, as confirmed by the novel and the script.

So worst case scenario Dooku is a very high level 8, or a low level 9. ZonAkin would have beat Windu too btw. Almost everyone on these boards agrees to that. In fact Lucas himself has now shown and agreed Zone Anakin can Overpower the Son and Daughter together, who are significantly more powerful than Sidious and Yoda together! Try thinking about that for a second.

So what if Mace can compete with Sids. Kenobi CAN NOT compete with Dooku, whilst Anakin can. And your the one who argues Kenobi is Anakin's superior any day of the week.

See what I mean by your constant double standards now? You really have to stop with that, and start trying to bring proof to the table.

1. There is no concession... I'm not going to go over something you already know.. Next, answer my question?

2. Actually beating him in sparring was narration.. there was no specifics about how the sparring went.. which is in stark contrasts to a great number of fights we do see in the movies or in the novels. Not to mention sparring are of the same quality as real fights. We've been over this before.

3. BEFORE he went into the zone.. Anakin's strikes were damaging Dooku's force reserves just fending them off. This was before Kenobi was even taken out. You need to read the novel again. This was explained because of the Kinectic Energy (you even referenced this) used by powerful two handed strikes from strong people can tax somebody only using one arm to defend against them. This was even stated in the essential guide for Dooku's form. Stop acting like you have no idea about this when it was even stated in the novel you claim to have read.

4. I'm waiting for what Dooku is superior to Sids at.. Should I make a thread that aks others what Dooku is superior at when compared to Sids? Are you claiming Sids isn't dooku superior in virtually every way?

5. Concession accepted they have very close TK feats.. This will not win the fight for Dooku is the point.

6. Anakin was a level 8 when he beat Dooku. It was stated WHEN HE TURNED TO THE DS AND BECAME A SITH HE BECAME A LEVEL 9. It wasn't stated when he got angry. He specifically notes that he became a 9 when he became a sith. So Dooku lost to a level 8. Mace is a level 9. Common sense DP.. use it.

7. He won't stalemate him because Mace will be feeding off of Dooku's DS energies... While dooku won't be feeding on anything. So no it won't end in a stalemate. The best you can hope for is a long drawn out fight with near equals i nsabers... but mace eventually finding Dooku's shatterpoint or simply wearing him down with his powerful strikes.

8. Yoda's attacks aren't more powerful than Mace's LOL.. WHERE THE HECK DID YOU GET THAT IDEA. Yoda is more powerful in the force.. but he's not stronger than Mace.. that is beyond idiotic to even suggest such a thing. Mace is vastly stronger than yoda and his species is SPECIFICALLY noted for their strength. yoda is a half pint.. he could never be as strong as a prime Mace.. maybe when mace was 10.. but that's about it. Mace's blows will tax Dooku's defense and everytually overcome them.

Regarding the "strength" comparison of Yoda and Mace, while Mace undoubtedly enjoys an advantage in natural physicality, I think you're neglecting the role played by the Force.

Those strong in the Force can obviously compensate for physical frailty; Savage Opress can b1tchslap the likes of Obi-Wan, Dooku, and Anakin (who is specifically noted by Dooku in the ROTS novel for his prodigious strength in physical and metaphysical realms)... yet Sidious demonstrates "enormous strength" that "shocks" Opress, to say nothing of the fact that Sidious later ragdolls him with an elbow to the face and then a kick to the chest.

So it is entirely possible that Yoda, when calling on the Force, surpasses Mace in physical strength.

Possible yes... probable no... While it's true that Yoda can amp his physical attacks when calling on the force... it would only surpass those not also strong in the force. For example i believe Yoda is stronger than Fisto.. even though Physical is bigger and could naturally lift more without the force invloved. But fisto is so far behind Yoda in the force.. that Yoda would still be stronger. This isn't the case with Mace.. who is also very strong in the force. Not yoda strong.. but one of the strongest in the force behind only Yoda. Thus, Mace already being vastly stronger physically than Yoda to start.. plus being strong in the force as well.. would mean Mace would still be stronger.

Plus we're talking about striking power here.. not ability to lift objects or TK somebody with the force. That I also believe yoda would be stronger. But Yoda has never even been hinted at as having powerful strikes. In fact, he uses the form he does to compensate for his physical limitations. He uses speed and agility to win.. not overwhelming somebody with powerful Strikes. Mace on the other hand.. is known for delivering powerful blows, much like Anakin, so those blows like Anakin... will tax dooku's one hand style was my point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. DS energies flow in him and Yoda sensed them RIGHT AWAY. If there are darkside energies flowing in him.. it stands to reason Mace can amp off of them. Stop being obtuse. I already proved energies can be sensed in dooku and thus he's using them.

2. Actually SP allowed Mace to beat somebody superior to Dooku. SP allowed mace to break the window.. KNOWING ti would slow sids spped down and make him loose footing on the wet ground. Did you forget that little part?

3. Mace did beat Sids and OVERPOWERED HIM per Lucas. There is little next to no evidence that Sids threw the entire fight. He was disarmed and overpowered by Mace PERIOD. The only thing you could say.. is he faked being as weak as he was at the end. But the Mace disarmed him and dealt with his force attacks. me and master han have driven off the notion that Sids threw the entire fight. We can do it again with you two if you want.

4. Actually they are firmly above Mace's... please prove this point.

5. Mace beat Sidious so thus he could very well do that.. and probably easier being that he would get a big amp off the brothers.

6. You have no clue what you're talking about here. Mace species are SPECIFICALLY known for their strength. His saber style is an aggressive strength and speed based form. It absolutly gives him an advantage over Dooku's style

7. Words about being equal mean very little. Actions mean more. Mace beat somebody tha is Dooku's superior in virtually every single way. That counts for more than random quotes about being equal and sparring. Feats > narration.

8. It will be in effect Dooku is a confirmed DS who's energies can be felt almost immediatly by some. it will be in effect.

9. His supposed superior TK, which isn't really superior, wont win him the fight. The fight will come down to Sabers and Mace will win.

1. Oh man, you really don't get how Vaapad works, do you?

2. He slashed the window with his saber. Also, Sidious even proclaimed that Shatterpoint had failed Windu, as it wasn't Sidious's fear he was sensing. Or did you forget that little part?

3. Go right ahead and try, but from the quality of your previous arguments I'm rather positive you can't prove anything. In fact I think I know exactly what you're going to say.

4. Simple. Mace's best non-OCW Force Feats are lifting a medium sized vehicle, sending Droidekas flying, and causing a large gateway to fall. Dooku has collapsed metal bridges, ragdolled Savage and Kenobi, and lifted every chair in the Council Chamber with considerable ease. Dooku's superiority is pretty clear.

5. We werent talking about his battle against the brothers dumbass. Also, you have yet to prove that Mace was superior to Sidious, even though canon statements put Yoda a head above him. And per basically everything, Sidious and Yoda were equals, or Sidious was the better if the two.

6. This doesn't matter. He doesn't rely on strength in combat, and refers to Saesee Tiin as a "stronger" individual. Vaapad relies on Speed and Ferocity in combat, get it through your head. Mace is not a power duelist, nor was he ever hinted to be.

7. Dooku's feats are better than Mace's if anything. You're still stuck on the "mace beet sidious so he own dooky". Not good enough 😉

8. Refer to #1.

9. 😆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Regarding the "strength" comparison of Yoda and Mace, while Mace undoubtedly enjoys an advantage in natural physicality, I think you're neglecting the role played by the Force.

Those strong in the Force can obviously compensate for physical frailty; Savage Opress can b1tchslap the likes of Obi-Wan, Dooku, and Anakin (who is specifically noted by Dooku in the ROTS novel for his prodigious strength in physical and metaphysical realms)... yet Sidious demonstrates "enormous strength" that "shocks" Opress, to say nothing of the fact that Sidious later ragdolls him with an elbow to the face and then a kick to the chest.

So it is entirely possible that Yoda, when calling on the Force, surpasses Mace in physical strength.

Agreed. Yoda>Mace in physical strength. Yoda carried a giant crate with ease, Windus best strength feat was choke slamming a battle droid on Ryloth the OCW battle dosint really demonstrate physical strength since Mace would just be hitting the droids in their shatterpoint.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Possible yes... probable no... While it's true that Yoda can amp his physical attacks when calling on the force... it would only surpass those not also strong in the force. For example i believe Yoda is stronger than Fisto.. even though Physical is bigger and could naturally lift more without the force invloved. But fisto is so far behind Yoda in the force.. that Yoda would still be stronger. This isn't the case with Mace.. who is also very strong in the force. Not yoda strong.. but one of the strongest in the force behind only Yoda. Thus, Mace already being vastly stronger physically than Yoda to start.. plus being strong in the force as well.. would mean Mace would still be stronger.

Plus we're talking about striking power here.. not ability to lift objects or TK somebody with the force. That I also believe yoda would be stronger. But Yoda has never even been hinted at as having powerful strikes. In fact, he uses the form he does to compensate for his physical limitations. He uses speed and agility to win.. not overwhelming somebody with powerful Strikes. Mace on the other hand.. is known for delivering powerful blows, much like Anakin, so those blows like Anakin... will tax dooku's one hand style was my point.

I don't believe it's that cut-and-dry and I believe visual and textual evidence suggests otherwise.

Savage is incredibly powerful in the Force and, particularly for a guy with practically zero formal training, goes toe-to-toe with Dooku, Ventress, and Jedi Council members (who, lest we forget, represent the peak of the order's martial skill per The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia). Even prior to his upgrade by Talzin, Savage demonstrated superhuman physicality on par with Ventress, cracked stone with his punches and kicks, etc. When magically supersized, he ragdolls Jedi (fellow superhumans) with impunity.

And then Sidious comes along and tanks his and Maul's (another Force user known for prodigious physicality) most powerful strikes with one-handed blocks each and Shadow Conspiracy notes Savage practically shat his metal breeches. To say nothing of the strikes Sidious lands on the brothers later in the duel. Sidious blocks a strike to his back from Savage with one hand and then physically overpowers Maul in blade lock.

Yoda's impressive Force-assisted strength is apparent that he's able to fight Sidious on even terms, even on ground and in bladelock, without being steamrolled.

Neither Yoda nor Sidious are going to beat the likes of Mace and Savage in an arm-wrestling contest, but in combat, the Force flows through them in such a way that I don't think we can conclude that physically powerful men strong in the Force surpass physically frail men even stronger in the Force in the same way that we cannot conclude as much with respect to speed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yoda's impressive Force-assisted strength is apparent that he's able to fight Sidious on even terms, even on ground and in bladelock, without being steamrolled.

Assuming Sidious was boosting his strength to the same degree he was in his duel with Savage and Maul.

Why would we assume otherwise?

If anything, since Maul and Savage weren't nearly as dangerous to Sidious as Yoda, one would expect Sidious to put more effort into such things.

Because Yoda isn't as physically strong as Maul and Opress and thus he wouldn't need to assign as much power to boosting his strength to fight him? I was just pointing out that you're assuming that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Yoda isn't as physically strong as Maul and Opress and thus he wouldn't need to assign as much power to boosting his strength to fight him? I was just pointing out that you're assuming that.

ermm

Even if your assertion were true, it wouldn't follow that Sidious would pull his punches.

Assuming that Yoda isn't as strong as Maul or Opress and yet still represents a more formidable challenge than both combined, it would follow that Sidious would exploit such a weakness, like any respectable fighter would.

If that were true it would mean that Sidious would have used the same level of strength against Windu since they were dueling equally. Indicating that Windu is stronger than an Opress who threw Dooku across a room in one blow.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If that were true it would mean that Sidious would have used the same level of strength against Windu since they were dueling equally.

Who says he wasn't?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indicating that Windu is stronger than an Opress who threw Dooku across a room in one blow.

Who says he isn't?

Because Windu and Dooku have dueled and surprisingly enough Windu didn't punt Dooku around like a saggy racist golfball.

I thought that was non-canon? And who's to say Dooku didn't compensate for a deficit in strength with his fencing prowess? He was able to do the same with Savage in their training.

I thought it wasn't. And they fought elsewhere.

He compensated by dancing around him. I doubt he'd do the same with Windu.

Also bare in mind that Ventress has dueled Savage and Windu without being overpowered. I guess shes stronger than Dooku too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought it wasn't. And they fought elsewhere.

And who's to say that Dooku didn't blunt this advantage in strength by virtue of sheer skill elsewhere? And who's to say Mace is naturally stronger with Force-assisted strength than either Dooku?

Originally posted by Nephthys
He compensated by dancing around him. I doubt he'd do the same with Windu.

Oh, ok, well if you doubt it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also bare in mind that Ventress has dueled Savage and Windu without being overpowered. I guess shes stronger than Dooku too.

And again, who's to say that she didn't compensate with skill?