ROTS Count Dooku Vs ROTS Mace Windu

Originally posted by Petrus
Sparring matches are hardly comparable to real battles. It's just that. Sparring. It's obvious that neither of the combatants are going all-out on each other. It's not like sparring Mace would sink deep into Vaapad and attempt to cripple Dooku with shatterpoint. A fight to death/capture/severely injure is not going to be similar to a simple sparring match.

The superior swordsman should still win a sparring match though. And the fact that Dooku and Yoda were the only ones to beat Mace in sparring shows it clearly does give a decent indication of their respective Saber Prowess.

Otherwise you would have many random Jedi having beaten Mace in sparring.

Originally posted by Petrus
Vaapad uses the opponent's darkness against himself [in this case, Dooku]. It is only logical to assume that Vaapad will give Mace an edge over Dooku, especially since Dooku is a master of the dark side. Add shatterpoint and it just improves Mace's chances further.

Vapaad only helped Mace to equal Sidious. Since Dooku and Mace are equals already what benefit do you expect Mace to gain from Vapaad against Dooku? There's just too much speculation behind the exact mechanics of Vapaad and how it will effect each individual Dark Side that Mace faces Imho.

Originally posted by Petrus
I never said Mace would kick Dooku's ass. I'm simply saying he would win against Dooku. It wouldn't be by a lot. But the comic is vague, IMO. It certainly doesn't seem like one of them had the upper hand, precisely because the Magnaguards intervene. We can't use that duel as a point of reference.

They've sparred, we've heard Dooku won. They've fought, we've not seen either look better. It all just adds up to the case that Mace is not really > Dooku.

Originally posted by Petrus
The quote in "Dark Rendezvous" isn't conclusive. The omniscient narrator uses the word 'perhaps'. 'Perhaps' isn't enough to simply put them on the same level.

The perhaps clearly means that even Mace probably isn't Dooku's equal. So basically the quote is saying Mace "At Best" is Dooku's equal.

Originally posted by Petrus
Besides, Lucas himself said you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. We all know about Lucas's complete lack of interest in the EU, so he most probably wasn't even thinking of Vaapad and shatterpoint when he said it, but his words are the highest form of canon possible [or were, at least], and the fact that Lucas says only Yoda and Mace can compete with Sidious does indeed put Mace above the likes of Dooku.

True but Lucas never said you have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace now did he? And I'm pretty sure when he said hat quote it was referring to Jedi only (not that I believe Dooku can beat Sidious, but just pointing that out).

And who knows what Lucas knows and what he doesn't. But I do know he line edited the ROTS Novel which explains Mace beating Sidious due to Vapaad.

Besides didn't Lucas already show Dooku competing with Yoda in AOTC? Since the idea that Yoda > Dooku even on a world amped in the Dark Side comes solely from EU Material and not from Lucas.

Mace can only truly compete with Sidious through Vaapad's looper-duper stuff anyway.

Windu easy.

How many times do I need to say stop bringing up some random quote about sparring... it's SPARRING and nothing. Not even remotely comparable to a real fight to the death between enemies. Further, as others have agreed, Mace undoubledly beat Dooku in sparring as well. It's not like they sparred only once and Dooku won.. That just isn't so. So not only does sparring mean jack shit.. but mace also beat Dooku.. so a big who gives a **** is appropriate.

Mace beats Dooku pretty muich every single time and that is just the way the cookie crumbles.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How many times do I need to say stop bringing up some random quote about sparring... it's SPARRING and nothing. Not even remotely comparable to a real fight to the death between enemies. Further, as others have agreed, Mace undoubledly beat Dooku in sparring as well. It's not like they sparred only once and Dooku won.. That just isn't so. So not only does sparring mean jack shit.. but mace also beat Dooku.. so a big who gives a **** is appropriate.

There's absolutely no source that I'm aware of which proved Mace ever beat Dooku. He may not have. Just because they sparred more than once does not mean Mace automatically won too, considering no one beat Mace except for Yoda and Dooku. So whose to say anyone beat Dooku except for Yoda?

Also you go on about sparring meaning absolutely nothing, but fact is the superior duelist should still win a sparring match. And there's just no getting around that fact.
Especially given the fact that it's ONLY Yoda and Dooku who were ever able to beat Windu, that in itself proves sparring clearly counts for something.

Jesus :facepalm:

Do you believe they only sparred once? Simple question, and the obvious answer is no. Obviously they would've sparred numerous times. Now, then, you're claiming that Dooku won every single time and you don't want me to laugh at that notion? I mean really... do you?

Not only does sparring not mean jack shit as it's far far away from a real fight.. but you're also forgetting that Dooku was more practiced and experienced than Windu when they did spar. This isn't peak ROTS mace.. this is a mace not as good and not using Vaapad during said sparring session. So yes, it certainly does mean **** all to ROTS going all out for the kill and using Vaapad Mace.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Jesus :facepalm:

Try it like this facepalm

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you believe they only sparred once? Simple question, and the obvious answer is no. Obviously they would've sparred numerous times. Now, then, you're claiming that Dooku won every single time and you don't want me to laugh at that notion? I mean really... do you?

I'm not claiming Dooku won every time. I'm claiming there's no proof Mace ever won, so stop acting like it's a fact that he did.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Not only does sparring not mean jack shit as it's far far away from a real fight..

Of course it means something. Fact is Agen Kolar isn't going to beat Yoda in a sparring match. So it does give an idea of combat prowess.

The intent behind the quote in question was clearly to show Yoda, Dooku and Mace were the top 3 Jedi duelists of the PT era (before Skywalker was a Kinght).

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
but you're also forgetting that Dooku was more practiced and experienced than Windu when they did spar. This isn't peak ROTS mace.. this is a mace not as good and not using Vaapad during said sparring session. So yes, it certainly does mean **** all to ROTS going all out for the kill and using Vaapad Mace.

I've not once claimed that's exactly how a fight between their ROTS counterparts will end. In fact in my first post on this thread I said Mace has the edge.

But then even in clone war novels Mace is stated to be Dooku's equal at best. Given that and Dooku's own feats, I have a hard time believing there's a significant difference between the 2, or that Mace will win 10/10 times.

Mr Thanosi has rather a bad habit of typing out blocks of drivel, interspersed with vulgar language and condescending nonsense, but notably lacking any canon examples (or indeed, grammar) to justify his increasingly absurd claims.

Pay him little attention, DP.

This coming from somebody who tried to make a point in another thread but failed miserably in doing so. You asking me for a canon source for my post is hilarious. That would be like somebody asking me for a canon source for my claim that the sky is blue i.e. idiotic. I said sparring isn't like a life and death fight between enemies. Which is 100% true n no need for a canon source. I further claimed that Mace couldn't even use vaapad during said sparring match, which again limits how effective he could be (and how it's different than a real fight). Why would I need a canon source for such a statment of common sense and fact?

Let me ask you a question... When these sparring matches took place... do you think Mace was just as good as he became in ROTS?

Yes.

based on? You do realize he fought in the clone wars and gained valuable fighting experience right? You also realize that it wasn't even stated he mastered shatterpoint at the time of the so called sparring matches. Sparring matches, that nobody can say when they took place mind you.

Thanosi, we have a lot of arguments, not just sparing matches. Can't you read?

1) Dooku and Mace fought in Obsession, and it looks like a tie. Dooku was forced to flee only becasue planet was almost under the Republic's control.
2) They also fought in CW: RH, and yeah, Dooku "lost". Mace had Kenobi on his side, and Dooku lost, but wasn't beaten (you have to look at this fight if you don't understeand my point).
3) Dooku could defeat Asajj, Grievous and Sora much more easily then Mace.
4) Yoda acknowledged Dooku as the most powerful/strongest/wisest order's student (at Yoda's times).
5) Also, in DR the narrator states, that Dooku and Mace are about equal in sabers (its post-shatterpoint, so Mace already mastered his Vaapad).
6) Dooku was able to beat Mace in sparing. We don't know if Mace was using Vaapad or not. We also don't know, if Mace ever defeated Dooku in sparing.

And one last thing - there are more people, beside me, whos believe, that Vaapad wont be work against Dooku (I mean, he is darksider, so places like Vjun boosted him. i believe that Mace also can be boost by dark places. But Dooku doens't use negative emotions during fight, so Mace couldn't use Vaapad succesfuly against Count)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4CgSV7Xans 00:26:20

^ Yeah I agree. His fencing isn't an aggressive style and it's something he's developed through decades of Jedi training.

Makashi can also fend off powerful aggressive attacks in a very defensive style (as shown in Crisis on Naboo against Skywalker), while keeping a hand free for Force attacks.

So even though I completely agree that Mace is probably the more "powerful" swordsman, I can imagine the Count holding off Mace all day with a combination of his slightly superior fencing skill and force mastery. Because Dooku really is a talented combatant when it comes to the all out, the way he effortlessly combines "Force" and "Sabers" together in combat.

Zett those arguments aren't even worth commenting on

1. Dooku was forced to flee and showed nothing that would lead us to believe he could beat mace
2. Again this doesn't show how dooku even stands a chance
3. This point is very relative indeed.. Mace had no issue with ventress at all and like the next example Dooku trained Vantress (never a good idea to use examples of pepole training somebody and beating them easier.. that SHOULD happen) ... Dooku trained The General and thus is an expect on how he fights... a luxury Mace doesn't have.. and lastly Mace also beat Sora.. and if you remeber wasn't even wanting to fight in the first place and injured.
4. Yoda didn't state that.. He stated Dooku was their biggest failure... post the quote that says Strongest and most powerful. Again, Mace is still in the order... so their biggest and most powerful failure woudl be dooku as he actually left.. Mace was still with the council.
5. This isn't proof of anything really
6. Sparring is aprring and already adressed

Lastly, you're totally wrong.. When yoda fought Dooku in AOTC.. He states right away... I sense the darkside in you. Clearly, Yoda could sense it right away and thus Dooku most defiantly was exhibiting DS energies that Mace coudl feed on. To say nothign fo the fact that we know Dooku is a DS and gets a boost on a nexus. So stop acting liek Mace woudn't get a booost.. he most certainly would.

KT you've refused to accept any evidence on Dooku's side but I've not actually seen you provide evidence anywhere that Mace takes this.

You mean other than:

1. Mace being able to use Vaapad on Dooku which gives him a decided edge against DS Dooku?
2. You mean besides Mace having Shatterponit, which again, gives him an edge in swordplay with Dooku?
3. You mean besides mace beating somebody that is superior to dooku is virtually anyway imaginable and his confirmed master?
4. you mean besides them having very similar TK feats, which means, it will likely come down to swordplay.. and Mace has the advantage there?
5. you mean besides Sidious literally beating a better team with ease than dooku did struggling with a weaker team (ventress and savage)?
6. You mean besides Dooku fencing style being vulnerable to aggressive hard strking forms... which is something Mace is known for.. strength and aggression.
7. You mean besides Dooku not being to beat Yoda and even being on the losing end of a fight on a DS nexus.. Granted it's yoda.. but if dooku were truly elite.. he should've gotten the better of the fight while amped
8. You mean besides Lucas saying you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious.. i.e. no mention of Dooku and him being able to compete
9. You mean besides Gillard naming the only 9's as Mace.. Anakin.. Sids and Yoda.. i.e. again no mention of Dooku beint elite or a 9.

Yeah pretty much anybody but a dooku fanboy can see Mace wins this fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean other than:

1. Mace being able to use Vaapad on Dooku which gives him a decided edge against DS Dooku?
2. You mean besides Mace having Shatterponit, which again, gives him an edge in swordplay with Dooku?
3. You mean besides mace beating somebody that is superior to dooku is virtually anyway imaginable and his confirmed master?
4. you mean besides them having very similar TK feats, which means, it will likely come down to swordplay.. and Mace has the advantage there?
5. you mean besides Sidious literally beating a better team with ease than dooku did struggling with a weaker team (ventress and savage)?
6. You mean besides Dooku fencing style being vulnerable to aggressive hard strking forms... which is something Mace is known for.. strength and aggression.
7. You mean besides Dooku not being to beat Yoda and even being on the losing end of a fight on a DS nexus.. Granted it's yoda.. but if dooku were truly elite.. he should've gotten the better of the fight while amped
8. You mean besides Lucas saying you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious.. i.e. no mention of Dooku and him being able to compete
9. You mean besides Gillard naming the only 9's as Mace.. Anakin.. Sids and Yoda.. i.e. again no mention of Dooku beint elite or a 9.

Yeah pretty much anybody but a dooku fanboy can see Mace wins this fight.

1. This won't help him against Dooku. He doesn't fight with aggression or rage, but rather finese and calm. This will give Mace no advantage here.

2. Shatterpoint rarely aids Mace in battle, and has never done something that important while fighting. The closest thing is sensing that Sidious trusted Anakin.

3. As if Mace could defeat Sidious in an actual fight. Get over it, kid. Mace was nothing but bait for Anakin to take.

4. Dooku's TK feats are firmly superior to Mace's. Still, it can be said that the are relative in level of ability with it. But TK is not the Force's only application.

5. I doubt Sidious could have done it quite that easily in different circumstance. Also--That's Sidious, not Mace.

6. Mace is not known for strength, he's known for speed, aggression, and unpredictability. Anakin and Saesee Tiin are more strength-oriented. Mace is not a power duelist. XD

7. In that same book where this fight takes place, it clearly states on neutral ground that Mace and Dooku are equals. Thus Mace would do no better with said amp.

8. Mace can only compete with Sidious due to the superconducting loop, which will not be as effective against Dooku.

9. Perhaps Dooku is not a 9 as a duelist (Though it's not confirmed that he's not a 9, he just wasn't confirmed to be one) he still makes up for it with his superior Force Competence.

Dooku and Mace are equals.

1, 2 - I already proved, that with Vaapad and SP they are about equals.
3 - I believe that Sidious threw the fight.
4 - As NewGuy01 said, Dooku's TK skills are superior.
5 - It was Sidious, I doubt, that Mace would be able to do that. I'm not even sure about Yoda.
6 - As DP said, Dooku's Makashi can fend of a powerful attacks. You have to look at Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan from E3. In a few situations, it looks like he's equaly strong to both of them. Only Anakin, when he started to use his full strenght (physical and in the force) is able to overcome the Count. Mace isn't physicaly as strong as Anakin and Anakins is stronger with the force as well.
7 - None from the movies is able to stand a chance against Yoda in lightsaber fight. Sidious lost to him very quickly, Dooku lost to him twice (but at the end wasn't disarmed like Sidious).
8 - Yeah, and later said, that Palpatine threw the force fight. Gj.
9 - Perhaps is, and perhaps not. All we do know, is that he was able to easily deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan (both tier 8 swordsmen at the moment), and lost only to Anakin , who reached his prime at this fight.

And someone as you called me fanboy? You're pretty funny guy 🙂

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You mean other than:

1. Mace being able to use Vaapad on Dooku which gives him a decided edge against DS Dooku?

Please explain the exact mechanics of how this will give Mace the win over Dooku. As well as an explanation for why those same mechanics did not give Windu a decided edge over Sidious or heck even give Sora Bulq a decided edge over Dooku.

And I want EVIDENCE.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. You mean besides Mace having Shatterponit, which again, gives him an edge in swordplay with Dooku?

Something he had at the times when Dooku used to beat him sparring. Something he had when Mace was named to be Dooku's equal during the Clone Wars.

Makashi much like Soresu can be used very defensively in combat. Both Vapaad and Shatterpoint will have a difficult time getting through it's defenses.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
3. You mean besides mace beating somebody that is superior to dooku is virtually anyway imaginable and his confirmed master?

PROVE Sidious is better than Dooku in every imaginable way including Saber technical skill and Saber defenses.

Again I want EVIDENCE, something you seem to be lacking.

Also your double standards are at work again. Whenever I asked you to explain how Kenobi >/= Skywalker > Dooku >> Kenobi, you always claimed that nothing needs to be explained there, it's just different styles at work.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
4. you mean besides them having very similar TK feats, which means, it will likely come down to swordplay.. and Mace has the advantage there?

Dooku has the better feats and is the confirmed "Most Learned" in the ways of the force. Not to mention you can't always break it down into 1.Sabers, 2.Force to decide the all out, because sometimes the all out is a completely different game. Which is very applicable to Dooku who is superb at combining Sabers and Force attacks together as demonstrated throughout his Movie, Animation and EU appearances.

So again PROVE Dooku's Tk won't effect Mace. Prove Mace will win the Saber fight. Again you lack EVIDENCE.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
5. you mean besides Sidious literally beating a better team with ease than dooku did struggling with a weaker team (ventress and savage)?

Wow! Wow! So much wrong with this. I can't believe you even brought this up. This is the most irrelevant argument ever.

Firstly, I'm sorry, who are we arguing here again?

I mean wow this is seriously going beyond A>B>C. This is more like B beat D & E >> than C Beat D&F, therefore A>C.

A more direct example would be Dooku pasting Bulq and Tholme much more easily than Mace was able to handle just Bulq.

Not to mention Sidious used his far superior force powers (to both Mace and Dooku) to aid him in pasting Maul and Opress, as well as a completely different combat style to both of them (Jar Kai).

And weren't you just going on a few posts ago about how it's much easier for Dooku to beat Ventress and Grievous because he trained them? Did you completely forget who it was who trained Maul?!

And didn't Dooku almost beat a superior duo with Kenobi and Skywalker? And didn't Dooku completely STOMP the guy, who you keep arguing has a completely legitimate win over Maul and Opress?!

Yeah this argument fails on several levels. But your double standards are what stand out as usual.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
6. You mean besides Dooku fencing style being vulnerable to aggressive hard strking forms... which is something Mace is known for.. strength and aggression.

This is actually a complete lie. Prove this to me! EVIDENCE PLEASE.

Dooku has fended off someone MORE POWERFUL than Mace, in the form of Yoda.

Makashi is an ideal style to fend off powerful attacks. Almost as good as Soresu I'd say. It doesn't generate the same kinetic energy because it's a one handed style and won't generate the same kinetic energy as 2 handed blows. But it still easily deals with power blows by giving ground and slanting the blows to the side.

Again No eveidence and proof you don't really know much about the different Saber forms. Makashi is the best for fencing. End of story.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
7. You mean besides Dooku not being to beat Yoda and even being on the losing end of a fight on a DS nexus.. Granted it's yoda.. but if dooku were truly elite.. he should've gotten the better of the fight while amped

Yeah in the same source that confirms Dooku >/= Windu. Yeah you can't just pick and choose which parts of a source you like KT.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
8. You mean besides Lucas saying you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious.. i.e. no mention of Dooku and him being able to compete

And you clearly have to be Yoda, Sidious, Mace or Skywalker to compete against Count Dooku, so I guess no one else has a chance at beating Skywalker right?

Refer back to your double standards of Kenobi >/= Skywalker > Dooku >> Kenobi.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
9. You mean besides Gillard naming the only 9's as Mace.. Anakin.. Sids and Yoda.. i.e. again no mention of Dooku beint elite or a 9.

Speculation. Again no proof. But Dooku was shown fending off a superior level 9 to Mace(Yoda) in the movies.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yeah pretty much anybody but a dooku fanboy can see Mace wins this fight.

Your Mace fanboyism isn't helping to provide any solid arguments or EVIDENCE.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

4. Yoda didn't state that.. He stated Dooku was their biggest failure... post the quote that says Strongest and most powerful. Again, Mace is still in the order... so their biggest and most powerful failure woudl be dooku as he actually left.. Mace was still with the council.

And? They were talk about Anakin firstly. And he also was in the order at the moment.

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure." - Yoda: DR