On the value of lesse sith, consider in the Clone Wars how Ventress would occasionally go to a planet and lean on a governor or such. Without Jedi help, the mundane leaders often find it really hard to deal with such pressure.
Picture Sith agents pressuring much of the leadership of Palpatine's Corellia and getting them to drop out/change sides.
Originally posted by Master Han
Sidious could just cloak himself, infiltrate Krayt's palace and assassinate him.
I can't picture Sidious risking himself on such a suicidal mission. If Krayt detects him, or heck, if he gets to Krayt and engages in combat and Wyyrlok detects that, then he's trapped inside a fortress with a few hundred sith, including some of the stronger lords. Whether they're able to respond fast enough to turn the tide in Krayt's favor or not, he's as good as dead and it becomes Wyyrlok's Galactic Empire vs Vader's at best.
Originally posted by Q99
Krayt can send large numbers of elite force-using pilots in fighters a bit better than Vader's personal one (and, for that matter, very large numbers of non-force users to support them). Except for Vader's, the DS1's fighter complement was basic TIEs, not even Interceptors. The difference is going to be staggering, I would not want to be a normal pilot going against sith-piloted fighters.
Krayt does have an advantage of having more force users, but they only numbered in the thousands. Do you think he would waste so much force users on piloting? Do you honestly think he would send a fleet of hundreds of dark siders in one battle. I mean, during TCW, the jedi numbered in the thousands, but they were dispersed throughout the galaxy for such a large scale war against the separatists, and this is the GE which is stated to have the largest military buildup in history, surpassing the separatists army, which consisted of quintillions of droids, not to mention other forces on their side. Also, while the jedi during TCW was an advantage to the republic, but to what extent is unknown, because some of the victories were directly decided by none other than Sidious himself.
Originally posted by Q99
Ah, major note on this- He did so by clouding the force and tilting things to the dark side, which remained unhindered...... and his opponents here also use the dark side.
Sidious states he had clouded Plagueis' mind. Galan's father told Vader that the dark side had clouded Vader's vision. A dark sider's mind can be clouded by the dark side, and Palpatine is a master of couding minds.
Also, as brought out by Tempest, Palpatine can conduct rituals to manipulate the emotions of force users on a galactic level, causing force users to stagger.
Originally posted by Q99
Reborn Krayt (as opposed to Armored Krayt) did accomplish some major things that Palpatine desired to but never reached, and is in possession of some major feats (he was able to communicate and announce his presence in the force across the entire galaxy).
Like what? You do realize that Maul surviving being chopped in half is more impressive than what Krayt survived, right? And Maul confirms that he did so through Palpatine's teachings. Also, I seen a Krayt vs Vader thread on comic vine, where someone tried to use this as an argument, and Silver2467 countered it by showing a scan of Vader once bringing himself back to life through sheer will.
Also, how would Vader accomplish anything from Krayt's knowledge? When has Krayt shown the ability to regrow body limbs?
Originally posted by Q99
While Sidious may overall still be a bit ahead, in specific areas Reborn Krayt has been shown to be ahead. A direct conflict between them would certainly be an epic fight.
No, Sidious is far ahead of Krayt, and he would wreck Krayt in a direct conflict. Krayt hasn't shown anything to suggest he would stand a chance against ROTS Sidious, let alone a Sidious who had decades more to immerse himself in dark side studies.
Originally posted by Q99
Military-wise, I'm mostly arguing during the time Krayt had armor, so in this case specifically it'd be a bad idea for Krayt to take him on unless he really used a lot of forces to wear down Palps first.
They'd also have to get through a lot of forces to get to Palpatine, and the survivors would be fodder for Sidious.
Palpatine also had a bunch of force using minions (quantity unknown), and while they weren't fully trained sith lords, neither are most of Krayt's sith by the ROT standards.
SidiousKrayt does have an advantage of having more force users, but they only numbered in the thousands. Do you think he would waste so much force users on piloting?
Around 10k, and 100 of them to kill a Death Star? Yes, of course, that's an excellent trade.
Especially as, if Vader's on it, they could likely prevent his escape.
I mean, during TCW, the jedi numbered in the thousands, but they were dispersed throughout the galaxy for such a large scale war against the separatists,
Mostly, but not always, they gathered on some important missions (like the time the CIS got it's own cloning operation going). And it'd be a nigh-sure win against one of the Empire's greatest targets.
That's one of the things a large organization has going for it- It can, if it choses, put a sizable chunk of force-users on it for a nigh-sure win, and most of the time the majority of those force users will come back for reuse. In addition to all the little victory they make dispersed.
and this is the GE which is stated to have the largest military buildup in history,
Sure, and the Krayt Empire is also at war and built-up bigtime, only with a lot more modern forces.
The GE may have somewhat of a numerical advantage, but not an overwhelming one considering the Krayt Empire's powerbase/industrial base/recruitment base is roughly the same size. I would not expect the size different to even make up for the tech difference.
Sidious states he had clouded Plagueis' mind. Galan's father told Vader that the dark side had clouded Vader's vision. A dark sider's mind can be clouded by the dark side, and Palpatine is a master of couding minds.
Sure, on an individual basis, and Sidious was working in direct proximity to Plagueis.
Rather different than trying to cloud an order's at a distance, and on guard against rival Sith trying to do that.
Also, as brought out by Tempest, Palpatine can conduct rituals to manipulate the emotions of force users on a galactic level, causing force users to stagger.
Exactly, light-side forceusers. Sith draw on the same emotions he does. Such unrest in the force feeds, not weakens, them.
Like what? You do realize that Maul surviving being chopped in half is more impressive than what Krayt survived, right?
Lesse, stabbed in the *neck*, hit with the force lightning of one of the Hundred Years Darkness original sith lords combined with his own returned to him, thrown off a cliff, and then hit with more force lightning.
Unlike Maul, people actually checked to make sure he was dead.
I think you've got it quite backwards 🙂 Krayt was actually dead-dead, he healed himself back, while Maul merely preserved himself from major injury.
No, Sidious is far ahead of Krayt, and he would wreck Krayt in a direct conflict. Krayt hasn't shown anything to suggest he would stand a chance against ROTS Sidious, let alone a Sidious who had decades more to immerse himself in dark side studies.
Except for the control of life and death at a level that not even Dark Empire Sidious achieved, let alone RotJ.
He's also used illusions in personal combat more impressively than Sidious.
And in lightsaber fighting, all signs are that even Armored Krayt had leveled up significantly and was a level or two above Obi-wan (as his young self, purely in sabers was about Obi-wan level). Or in other words, he is without a doubt good enough to make it an actual duel. In armor, he lacks the endurance to keep it up for long, and even without armor Sidious is Sidious, but we are talking, "This is clearly a fight which Sidious is clearly going to have to use real effort on." Armor'll be harder than the Maul/Oppress fight. And Reborn would be a real challenge.
Sure, Sidious is the best, but the whole 'no-one can even stand up to him,' stuff is silly considering there's, like, 3 people who can stand up to him in his own era, and even Maul+Oppress is able to make it last a minute or two.
They'd also have to get through a lot of forces to get to Palpatine, and the survivors would be fodder for Sidious.
Oh, he'd use the conventional forces against those.
This is more of an, "Late game, Krayt's forces manage to corner Palpatine on a planet," situation.
Palpatine also had a bunch of force using minions (quantity unknown), and while they weren't fully trained sith lords, neither are most of Krayt's sith by the ROT standards.
A very good number of Krayt's sith are the level of combat-experienced Jedi masters, and there are some that are the level of RoT Sith.
Conversely, while Palps has a few impressive individuals, the majority are simply fallen Jedi with little to no extra training or adepts trained by the same, of which only a few were shown to be non-chumps. In each organization, there tends to be 2-3 that stand out (Mara Jade, Jerec), but the majority are *very* low level. Even Emperor's Hands are often not combat capable- Roganda Ismaren was purely a spy-assassin and wouldn't qualify to be a Sith by One Sith standards.
Some of the ones he picked had specifically minimal training (just to fill a specific role), and he often gave recruited force sensitives *no* training- the Imperial Guards were picked to have high force potential but zero force-specific training.
I'm pretty sure in total they're no more than a hundred or so force users, and even the largest and most combat focused of them, the Inquisition, were largely chumps with only a few people of any notice. Throw in that they aren't trained to work with those outside their organization or in large groups within, most of them either hunt down padawans in hiding/out of practice Jedi or non-force users (as opposed to the One Sith's 7 years of combat experience against Jedi and Imperial Knights), and the Inquisitor response to running into someone strong is "Report it in, let Vader handle it,".... these guys'll basically be mulch going against a real force using organization (and as stories with them show, *are* mulch against real opposition. Kam Solusar sliced through Dark Adepts easily. Untrained Kyle Katarn took out the Inquisition's elite on his own, most of them not even being a problem, and heck, Arden Lyn faced three of the Inquisitions leaders and killed one and badly wounded a Grand Inquisitor before being taken down. *Anytime* some moderately badass comes into the scene Inquisitors fall like chaff!).
Palpatine kept power out of dark sider's hands for a reason. He wanted them splintered and controlled, not as strong as they could be. This makes them not the most formidable of organizations and reliant on their true Sith bosses against real problems.
I will additionally note the Krayt Empire does run force-sensitive agents who weren't strong enough to be Sith. If you're weak in the force but loyal, Imperial Intelligence will still use them as trained assassins and the like. So they've even got some counterparts to the lesser ones, outside of the actual proper Sith.
Sidious states he had clouded Plagueis' mind. Galan's father told Vader that the dark side had clouded Vader's vision. A dark sider's mind can be clouded by the dark side, and Palpatine is a master of couding minds.Also, as brought out by Tempest, Palpatine can conduct rituals to manipulate the emotions of force users on a galactic level, causing force users to stagger.
No, Sidious is far ahead of Krayt, and he would wreck Krayt in a direct conflict. Krayt hasn't shown anything to suggest he would stand a chance against ROTS Sidious, let alone a Sidious who had decades more to immerse himself in dark side studies.
Originally posted by mikemikeer
We saw that ONCE in sithisis, a non canon (I believe source).
The events of Sithisis, specifically the galaxywide ritual, are depicted and referenced in The Ultimate Visual Guide and its updated edition. It's canon.
Originally posted by mikemikeer
Even if it happened, he doesn't just bring it out anytime he wishes.
That's because it's a ritual. A lot like Vitiate's mindhaxx.
Originally posted by mikemikeer
Either you haven't been paying attention to the Legacy comics, or you ignore things that would question your fanboyism.
Actually, 66 is right. No one has bothered to defend just how Krayt can stand up to Sidious. Accusing someone of bias doesn't change the fact that a claim has been made and a burden perpetually unfulfilled.
Nobody has bothered to argue how ROTS Sidious would stand up to Krayt? I don't see you arguing that aspect. As far as I'm concerned, Krayt was already a powerhouse before his death. Reborn Krayt apparently was the only highlander in the mythos. His saber skills were impressive, his illusions were impressive, his knowledge of dark transfer and shatterpoints was impressive, his force lightning was impressive.
Originally posted by mikemikeer
Nobody has bothered to argue how ROTS Sidious would stand up to Krayt? I don't see you arguing that aspect. As far as I'm concerned, Krayt was already a powerhouse before his death. Reborn Krayt apparently was the only highlander in the mythos. His saber skills were impressive, his illusions were impressive, his knowledge of dark transfer and shatterpoints was impressive, his force lightning was impressive.
Who said this is ROTS Sidious? Sidious, by virtue of being an infinitely more important and established character, is also the one whose feats and accolades are pretty much universally known. The only thing that has been offered by Q99 is that Krayt has demonstrated certain abilities Palpatine hasn't and is presumably an elite duelist by virtue of his age and experience. All these are well and good, but age and experience aren't decisive advantages with Palpatine (Yoda) and Palpatine simply has vastly more feats and accolades to his name than does Krayt. It is perfectly reasonable for the majority to conclude that Palpatine is the more impressive figure when his contender is a relative unknown and said contender's defenders have offered little to suggest parity with the most powerful Sith in the franchise.
Originally posted by mikemikeer
66 claimed Krayt couldn't handle ROTS Sidious (without proof), so I'm using ROTS Sidious. And being the more impressive figure doesn't preclude the need to actually prove how said character is going to overcome another character, unless you plan on hiding behind "powerful" quotes.
Firstly, there's nothing wrong with using the plethora of in-universe and OOU statements labeling Palpatine as the most powerful sith.
Secondly, when has Krayt ever insta-killed 50 stormtroopers simultaneously? Or mind wiped memory of an event from the entire galaxy conscious? Or turned an entire planetary population into feasts for his Force appetite? Did Krayt's death leave a DS Force nexus? It's obvious Krayt wouldn't stand a chance against OT Palpatine.
RotS Palpatine has knocked the Force itself off balance with Plagueis's aid, and stalemated the "greatest foe the darkness had ever known" in personal combat. Has Krayt ever taken down three of the greatest duelists ever produced within seconds?
Originally posted by mikemikeer
66 claimed Krayt couldn't handle ROTS Sidious (without proof), so I'm using ROTS Sidious. And being the more impressive figure doesn't preclude the need to actually prove how said character is going to overcome another character, unless you plan on hiding behind "powerful" quotes.
ROTS!Sidious has slain three members of the Jedi Council, "celebrated swordsmen" each of them, during a time identified by Lucas separately as "the prime" and the "golden age" of the order in less than 10 seconds. He is a master of all forms of lightsaber combat. He has casually telekinetically manhandled two warriors each capable of impressive telekinetic feats in their own right (ragdolling starships, destroying rooms by flexing arms, etc.). He held his own against Yoda, identified by Fight Saber as probably the greatest Jedi swordsman in the history of the Republic.
He's got plenty of feats against Krayt even as far back as ROTS.